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Ask HN: Finding tech talent is getting harder. It's not a Bay Area problem only

62 点作者 hichamin大约 6 年前
If you&#x27;re a CTO for a growing startup, this might be a familiar challenge for you.<p>On top of building the product, finding product engineers is becoming one of the hardest things for a CTO to do in 2019, especially in tech hubs like NY and London due to higher demand and competition.<p>This problem is no longer exclusive to the Bay Area. Hiring is time-consuming and expensive, and many startups feel that they can’t compete with some of the top salaries and perks offered by deep-pocketed alternatives.<p>It makes sense to rely on your network to hire the initial few developers, but this approach is not sustainable in the long run.<p>Job boards are getting crowded. Recruiters are generally worse.<p>I&#x27;ve read a lot of stories about using recruitment platforms. Few are great, but many are unpleasant. The flaw with many recruitment companies is they don&#x27;t reliably deliver enough good candidates to build trust.<p>Asking for profile A and getting profile B is a common frustration. For startups, this tends to be a deal-breaker because hiring the wrong candidate has a significant cost and impact on backlog and team.<p>Is it that most recruiters or on-demand marketplaces aren&#x27;t highly technical? Is it that they also suffer from talent shortage?<p>Remote work has been getting a lot of love in recent years to bypass the talent war. Although it has come a long way, it&#x27;s still hard to pull off, especially for companies that are trying to do both local and remote but are not remote-first (think infrastructure and payroll primarily).<p>With that being said. How do startups in hubs currently find great engineers quicker? What&#x27;s an approach that you have been investing in recently to hire product hackers?

27 条评论

edhowzerblack大约 6 年前
As a developer who has recently been through the hiring process, I think the problem is not a shortage of talent, but rather that companies are awful at hiring. Here are a few of the main issues:<p>1. Don&#x27;t limit your potential talent pool to the miserable and the unemployed. In theory, any developer who is currently employed might be interested in leaving their job to work for you. Perhaps you will offer them more money, or perhaps a better quality of (work) life. However, most developers won&#x27;t bother to talk to you if they already have a job. Why is that? Simple, if they do talk to you, you&#x27;re going to offer them a homework assignment. You&#x27;re going to tell them that it shouldn&#x27;t take more than an hour, but it will actually take two full days to do right. Giving someone a homework assignment isn&#x27;t a way to woo them away from their current job. So you are left with a candidate pool that consists mostly of people who are desperate enough that they have to agree to jump through your hoops (i.e. unemployed, miserable in their current job, etc.)<p>2. Don&#x27;t discard capable people. The average interview begins with a remote code challenge whereby the candidate, who is probably nervous, has to pair program a completely contrived problem with a complete stranger watching them over a webcam. There are tons of developers who are good at coding solutions to real world problems in real world situations but simply don&#x27;t perform well in this type of situation. This type of scenario is not really assessing a candidate&#x27;s skills. It&#x27;s assessing their familiarity with specific contrived interview problems and their ability to perform under duress.<p>Of course, the points you raised are fair as well. Recruiters are not technical people, they are sales people. You will have to find a good recruiter. They are out there, you just have to find the right ones. But my point is, once you find the good recruiter(s) don&#x27;t waste the human capital they can being to you by having a terrible interview process. Here is my advice. Once your recruiter has a handful of resumes you like, carve out half a days worth of 30-minute sessions to meet with them at the recruiter&#x27;s office. Ask them about projects they&#x27;ve worked on. You&#x27;ll find out much more about what they know and what they&#x27;re like to work with than you would with the typical remote code challenge. One you narrow the pool down a bit bring them in for on-sites.<p>Best of luck!
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aantix大约 6 年前
<i>This problem is no longer exclusive to the Bay Area. Hiring is time-consuming and expensive, and many startups feel that they can’t compete with some of the top salaries and perks offered by deep-pocketed alternatives.</i><p>Offer to teach the developer something.<p>&quot;Java developers - want to learn Node and React?&quot;<p>&quot;Rails developers - want to learn Elixir?&quot;<p>Get one senior person on staff who really knows the stack well and require that they pair program every day with a different member of the team.<p>Good developers are grateful for the opportunity to level up their skills, contribute, and still make a living.<p>Andres Camacho in SF has been VP of Engineering and CTO at several startups and is king of this strategy.
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malvosenior大约 6 年前
It&#x27;s funny because people keep saying this yet I&#x27;ve noticed something... The interview process for developers is about 10X harder than it used to be a decade ago. It used to be that you&#x27;d chat with a couple of people about tech, projects you&#x27;d worked on... then get a job offer. Now there are multiple rounds spread out over weeks with a massive number of team members, live coding challenges galore, non-tech screening for all manner of sketchy things (culture fit, dedication to diversity...).<p>I think a lot of this is based on they myth of: A bad hire causes <i>tons</i> more damage than not hiring a good person.<p>I call BS. To me this is just weak management. It&#x27;s actually not that difficult to fire someone. If you&#x27;re in doubt, put an explicit probation period in the contract. I think being able to effectively fire is management 101 but looks like it&#x27;s becoming a lost art. I&#x27;m not sure if this is because people are afraid of confrontation or they&#x27;re just cargo culting the story they&#x27;ve heard about bad hires.<p>Easy in, easy out and you&#x27;ll see your dev shortage problem start to solve itself.
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weliketocode大约 6 年前
The usual HN refrain here is &#x27;pay more&#x27;.<p>And as a developer in NYC, I&#x27;d say this is accurate, but simplifies the problem a bit too much.<p>Companies like their salary bands. Companies like to hire people at around the same compensation as current employees in the same role with around the same experience.<p>The problem is that demand has recently gone up and pay should go up with it, but companies are refusing to adjust their bands and greatly increase pay for their current employees across the board.<p>So, instead of addressing the pay issue head on, we&#x27;re seeing a few really really bad practices:<p>- Lose candidates at the offer stage<p><pre><code> - Try to get comp expectations out of the way earlier. - Losing candidates to Big Co. for big pay discrepancies is likely tolerable - Losing candidates over $20k salary band issues is absolutely unacceptable - DO NOT let HR takeover the closing process. - Don&#x27;t try to give an exploding offer - Don&#x27;t say an offer is &#x27;best and final&#x27; - The CTO or VP eng should give the offer and make it a priority to close the candidate </code></pre> - Giving pay increases to current employees only when they have other offers or explicitly ask for it<p>- Giving regular title bumps to justify pay increases<p><pre><code> - Your &#x27;senior&#x27; engineers will be involved with hiring. It&#x27;s better to give junior&#x2F;mid-level engineers big raises than title bumps that will make hiring talent more difficult </code></pre> If these points sound obvious, they&#x27;re not. As a candidate, I have not seen a single company that follows them.<p>And this post just addresses issues around compensation. I haven&#x27;t even begun to touch on being honest around your interview process. But let me put a few questions out there as well:<p>- How many rounds do you have?<p><pre><code> - 3 is probably a maximum. Never have more than one on-site </code></pre> - What is your accept rate at each round?<p><pre><code> - the accept rate should increase from round to round </code></pre> - For testing candidates<p><pre><code> - be very clear about what questions you&#x27;re asking and why - know, objectively, what is considered a pass vs a fail for every question</code></pre>
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CamTin大约 6 年前
If your business is essentially burning VC money for a decade to buy a ticket in the Unicorn lottery, then the easy answer is to spend a lot more money. You can do this by poaching expensive people, by offering more, or by hiring lots more people than you need and keeping the ones you actually want. The result will be more manpower faster, at significant expense.<p>You can also, as many companies default to, ration yourself by imposing very grueling hiring requirements (months of fly-in interviews and hours-long take-home assignments) and &quot;competitive&quot; (as determined by some non-market mechanism like an industry survey) pay. The result of the latter will be long hiring times for good-enough talent that is willing to work for whatever you&#x27;ve pre-determined to be fair.<p>It&#x27;s really no different from looking for a car: you can have a known high-quality thing right now (buy new from a dealer&#x2F;pay $$$ for top talent), or you can buy a lot of potential lemons for cheaper until one happens to last (grabbing random by-owner cars from Craigslist&#x2F;hire-fast-fire-fast), or you can just wait things out until you find the perfect deal (trawl Craigslist a couple times a week until something jumps out as an incredible deal&#x2F;pay &quot;market&quot; rates and have a long hiring process).<p>There are tradeoffs to be made, and you have to make them according to what you actually need and the resources you have. There&#x27;s no physical law that says you&#x27;re entitled to unlimited world-class talent at bargain rates to build your adtech startup.
systemtest大约 6 年前
The cheapest way of finding talent is retaining it. I currently work on a project with an empty backlog and a sprint full of impediments. We are all looking for new jobs.<p>Hiring a good product owner would&#x27;ve meant retaining the team. Now you have to have to find six new developers.
wrestlerman大约 6 年前
I&#x27;m from Europe, so I will say why I don&#x27;t want to work in London (and I get a lot of offers from there!)<p>The salaries that are offered are a joke in London. The expenses are so huge there! Even if the salary is a bit higher than my current one, I would spend much more.<p>There are a lot of joke startups, some new cryptocurrency or blockchain startups... Nope, I&#x27;m not gonna join anything like that.<p>Also, I&#x27;m not a huge fan of big cities and London is too crowded (for me).<p>Allow remote and I&#x27;m sure you are gonna find someone.
hc91大约 6 年前
Man, there is NO shortage of tech talent, stop lying to yourself. You are just not paying enough for people to even consider interviewing for your company. Period. This is actually a very simple problem. Throw money at it and stop complaining.
mattkrause大约 6 年前
I&#x27;m not sure I believe this.<p>Find a random research university near you. It is chock-a-block full of people, most of whom are very smart and many of whom can code. Since everyone other than tenured profs has a precarious, low-paying job, this should be a fairly easy pool to recruit from.<p>Nevertheless, I, a staff scientist in a computational field, get messages from (maybe) 3-4 recruiters a year, all of whom are from huge companies. It would be good to hear from more places and it would <i>great</i> to hear from places that are willing to consider my actual experience (look at my code, hear about my data analysis) instead of asking me to dredge up half-remembered tricks from my undergrad data structures class.
mnm1大约 6 年前
Shortage my ass. These companies are not paying enough, not looking for remote workers, and generally not offering enough attractive packages. There&#x27;s no shortage. Start paying more. Offer remote work. Stop being a shitty workplace. Qualified developers will start pouring in. If you think a ping pong table and beer keg are going to attract quality talent over a proper salary and remote work you&#x27;re delusional and shouldn&#x27;t be in a position to hire.
stakhanov大约 6 年前
Of the dozen-or-so companies that I&#x27;ve been through at this point, there were only three where I would say they put a decent effort into trying to retain the talent they ALREADY HAD. So if finding &quot;fresh meat&quot; is becoming more difficult, maybe there is some good in that, if it incentivizes more to adequately value the talent they already have and put a decent effort into trying to retain them.
andy_adams大约 6 年前
When I look for a job, I spend time investigating companies who align with my experience, goals, etc - regardless of whether or not they&#x27;re actively hiring. Consider doing the inverse: Contact developers who may not be looking, but who align with your company well.<p>It&#x27;s flattering to hear from someone who is genuinely interested in hiring me - if you&#x27;re interested in _me_, I might consider you even if I wasn&#x27;t planning on leaving where I&#x27;m at.<p>Admittedly, it&#x27;s time-consuming. But it&#x27;s also &quot;doing things that don&#x27;t scale&quot;.
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SJMosley大约 6 年前
As a product manager, I have gotten to the last round of multiple interviews (3 or more, meeting full teams and different departments).<p>Then been turned down as they are &quot;going with other candidates&quot;, only to see the job reposted. This has happened on multiple occasions.<p>Maybe I wasn&#x27;t the right person for the role. One specific role has now been up for 5 months. Which likely means the company is looking for an unrealistic set of requirements that no one can meet instead of training appropriately.<p>In my opinion, the person that will come in and solve all your problems without training does not exist. Make a decision and be okay with letting a new employee get familiar with your company and industry.
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JSeymourATL大约 6 年前
&gt; Job boards are getting crowded. Recruiters are generally worse.<p>It seems that most (young) recruiters these days rely primarily on Linkedin as a sourcing tool. But that&#x27;s not where the best talent is found.<p>The Hack to finding talent is to truly learn the recruiting process. That is to say, can you identify, assess, and ATTRACT decent people on your own?<p>Start by asking: Who would know know my ideal candidate?<p>ON this subject, Lou Adler is masterful &gt; <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;youtu.be&#x2F;9KLR6rteoOU" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;youtu.be&#x2F;9KLR6rteoOU</a>
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protonimitate大约 6 年前
I don&#x27;t think the problem is a shortage of talent. I think the problem is that the expectations for the amount of work a single employee can produce are unrealistic.<p>Everyone wants to hire the 10xer. The problem is that they&#x27;re a) expensive, b) not always easy to work with, c) usually already employed.<p>If companies stopped focusing on getting the &quot;best of the best&quot; to produce results overnight, and instead spent energy in investing in young&#x2F;less experienced candidates, things would be a lot easier for everyone. Of course, this means that companies need to come up with ways to retain talent so they don&#x27;t &quot;waste they time&quot; on developing someones career to just have them poached.<p>I find it funny how posts like these alternate between &quot;why can&#x27; I find a job?&quot; and &quot;why can&#x27;t we hire anyone?&quot;. Obviously there&#x27;s a disconnect somewhere. There is absolutely no shortage of talent, it&#x27;s just mismanaged expectations (on both ends).
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rajacombinator大约 6 年前
Pay more or be more willing to work with people who don’t have all the skills you want. (Yet.) A lot of startups want to hire senior FAANG type talent and pay them less than entry level at those companies. Good luck. You have to be scrappy as a startup and that includes how you find talent.
vonmoltke大约 6 年前
&gt; This problem is no longer exclusive to the Bay Area.<p>When people question why so many companies start or stay in the Bay Area, &quot;density of talent&quot; inevitably comes up as one of the reasons. I can&#x27;t reconcile that assertion with this one here.
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quantumhobbit大约 6 年前
Many here are commenting that you should pay more and that is true. But how about not wasting the talent you already have?<p>I’ve had several jobs from startups to big companies and I have never been utilized at anything close to 100% of my potential.<p>Try getting rid of pointless meetings, distracting open offices, insane IT policies, and needlessly overcomplicated architectures. You may not even need to hire any more enigineers if the ones you have are more productive.
cirgue大约 6 年前
&gt;Asking for profile A and getting profile B is a common frustration. For startups, this tends to be a deal-breaker because hiring the wrong candidate has a significant cost and impact on backlog and team.<p>This sticks out: the hiring process is really bad at making this judgement effectively. We face this problem at my company, most of our best and worst team members have been surprises.
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ykevinator大约 6 年前
And by the way of the 30 or so engineers I have hired in the last 10 years, exactly 1 would have been correctly filtered by a homework assignment and 7 or 8 would have been incorrectly filtered. Technical hiring in my opinion is so poorly done by most people because they think developers are commodities that can be standardized and quantified.
cletus大约 6 年前
There is no such thing as a labour shortage. There is only an unwillingness to pay. If you can&#x27;t afford to attract talent at market rates then your business model as it is exists isn&#x27;t viable.<p>A big aspect to this is that the equity lottery of startups is largely gone because companies going public is increasingly rare, companies stay private longer (which presents real problems for the liquidity of employee options) and there are just so many ways an employee can get screwed out of their equity value that as the time a startup is private increases the value of the equity inevitably approaches zero. Down rounds, liquidity preferences, that sort of thing.<p>Equity is a pretty terrible deal for employees. Great for VCs. Great for founders (mostly). Horrible for employees.
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pooya13大约 6 年前
It seems to me that there is more talent going to software than ever and the Junior dev starting salary has been steadily declining over the past decade.
RickJWagner大约 6 年前
I can&#x27;t imagine it&#x27;s really that difficult.<p>I work remote, and love my job. But if something ever happened to change that, I&#x27;d be glad to work for another company.<p>The other company just has to allow remote workers. Given that, I think there&#x27;s probably a big pool of talent to draw from.
sharemywin大约 6 年前
Curious what your definition of an A versus B profile is?
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fucking_tragedy大约 6 年前
Pay more.
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mariusz331大约 6 年前
Tech salaries have gone up faster than founders&#x2F;VCs expected and it&#x27;s becoming more expensive to run a startup. Perhaps startups should wait a little longer to raise money. It seems more important than ever to find product-market fit before hiring.
nakedrobot2大约 6 年前
Hey y&#x27;all,<p>there&#x27;s a huge tech talent shortage in Prague, which has approximately 1000x higher quality of life than the bay area. You can make a high salary here and live extremely well. Bonus: no human feces on your front doorstep!