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The Planned Obsolescence of Old Coders

269 点作者 coffee大约 6 年前

45 条评论

d_burfoot大约 6 年前
I wanted to like this article, but I was annoyed by the second sentence, which asserts that the tech industry is extremely white and male. The &quot;male&quot; part may be true, but the &quot;white&quot; part isn&#x27;t, and that fact is well known to anyone with even a passing familiarity with the industry. The big tech companies are actually LESS white than the US as a whole; it&#x27;s Asians who are vastly overrepresented. In 2017, Google&#x27;s tech hires were 47.1% Asian and 42.1% white. The 2018 Facebook tech hires were 51.3% Asian and 42.7% white. This compares to the overall US population which is 72% white and only 5% Asian.<p>I don&#x27;t want to start a flame war about diversity, I just want to get the facts straight.<p><a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;diversity.google&#x2F;annual-report&#x2F;" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;diversity.google&#x2F;annual-report&#x2F;</a><p><a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.facebook.com&#x2F;careers&#x2F;diversity-report" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.facebook.com&#x2F;careers&#x2F;diversity-report</a><p><a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;en.wikipedia.org&#x2F;wiki&#x2F;Race_and_ethnicity_in_the_United_States" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;en.wikipedia.org&#x2F;wiki&#x2F;Race_and_ethnicity_in_the_Unit...</a>
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wiremine大约 6 年前
For context: I&#x27;m VP of a software consultancy responsible for delivering software on time and on budget.<p>My take is that older programmers who maintain their skills on new technology are worth their weight in gold. The financial trick is to pair them with younger developers to create an overall cost effective team. If both the older and younger devs go in with the right attitude, it can be wonderful for both the project and their respective careers.<p>I also think it&#x27;s really, really dumb to push developers into management positions if they can&#x27;t do the job. I&#x27;d much prefer putting younger managers with great management skills into the mix than just rotating older devs into that role.<p>Bottom line: software requires lifelong learning. If you can&#x27;t or won&#x27;t stay current, you&#x27;re in trouble. If you can, then it&#x27;s just agism or a bad business model that&#x27;s keeping you out of awesome projects.
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erikpukinskis大约 6 年前
I&#x27;ve been doing some job interviewing lately, at 37.<p>I do find that companies seem to know how to evaluate young programmers: just test them on their knowledge of your tech stack. Any young coder who is good and is working in that stack will know the basics. The bad ones won&#x27;t.<p>For older coders, I&#x27;m not sure that same signal works. I&#x27;ve forgotten more frameworks than most coders will ever learn. I mostly don&#x27;t care about programming languages, they&#x27;re roughly the same and I can learn a new one in a couple weeks.<p>I know technologies like Rails and SQL, but I don&#x27;t play with the new toys as much as I used to, becuase lately I would rather solve a new problem or build a new tool than learn a new tool.<p>But how do you evaluate a coder on their ability to solve problems? Much harder.<p>Even more difficult, how do you get a 24 year old coder who only knows react and FireBase to evaluate a 37 year old coder who has built web frameworks from scratch?<p>It&#x27;s another world, and a lot of companies just don&#x27;t bother.<p>Thankfully I have no desire to work at any of those companies. I solve problems. If a company can&#x27;t hire for that I don&#x27;t belong there. There are plenty of companies trying to hire people to solve actual problems, not just put coder butts in seats.
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SamuelAdams大约 6 年前
I work in enterprises with 50,000+ employees and billions in annual revenue. I work with older programmers all the time! They&#x27;re better at programming in Angular than I am. And they are wonderful mentors!<p>I think what&#x27;s actually happening is some programmers, who happen to be older, don&#x27;t keep up with their skills. Then when they interview, they bomb it, or talk about how they could do the same thing in an older stack.<p>That&#x27;s great, but the company is really invested in the current &#x2F; new stack, so it doesn&#x27;t make sense to hire someone who does not have those skills. So they pass them up and find a candidate who knows the software the company is looking for.<p>But the older interview candidate, instead of reflecting on themselves and realizing they need to spend time enhancing their skills, they simply say the company was &quot;ageist&quot; and blame it on age discrimination.<p>Blaming others is generally easier than blaming yourself, I guess.
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deanmoriarty大约 6 年前
I&#x27;m in my early 30s and very aware of this, to the point where if I could go back I&#x27;d pick a different career.<p>My strategy is: live in the bay area so I can get paid like crazy, live a very frugal life much below my means, invest diligently, and hopefully have enough money to retire in my late 30s (in a much cheaper area, of course), so that when I&#x27;ll be told that I&#x27;m too old, I&#x27;ll raise my middle finger and leave the scene with the few million dollars I saved.
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pipingdog大约 6 年前
I will be 53 this year. I am, strictly speaking, an IC. A leaf node.<p>The company where I work administers a survey of all tech employees every year, then publishes the results as a series of graphs, which can be broken down at any branch in the org chart. The very first question is &quot;how many years of industry experience do you have?&quot; The graph for my team is, shall we say, bimodal. There&#x27;s a bell curve between 1-4 years, and a spike at 30 years.<p>I&#x27;ve been building things for a long time, and I try to impress upon the other developers on my team (or in my org) that I&#x27;ve never, ever, had an opportunity to build at the scale that they&#x27;re being asked to build at in their first gig out of school. If I come off as negative, it&#x27;s only because I can say with surety that X won&#x27;t work because it didn&#x27;t work in the past. I expect to learn, with my team, whether we can make things work at now scale.<p>There are times that I miss hours and hours of uninterrupted coding, and being inventive at small scale. My leadership would take me out to the loading dock and kick the shit out of me if I tried to contribute at that level.<p>My job is, essentially, to educate, and slap the team off of local optima. To impress upon them that their customers are king, and that their customer base includes themselves and their teammates, paged out of bed at 3am. And to impress upon their management and the business that we really to need to focus on improving operations, rather than add features from time to time. It is also to observe the progress of, and advocate for the developers on my team.<p>I feel (at the time of writing... Talk to me on Monday afternoon) like I&#x27;m lucky that my employer points senior engineers at problems like this.
akras14大约 6 年前
I got to interview a lot of people in the past 2 years, and I noticed that new grads are REALLY good at solving Leetcode type of problems.<p>The expectation in the industry is that Senior people would be even better at it, because of their years of experience.<p>This,however, is not what I’ve seen on the ground. Most senior devs that I interviewed, who were clearly smart and experienced took much longer than new grads to solve most of the questions. Personally, I try not to hold it against them, if they can clear the bar, but I wonder how many other people do the same.<p>Also, I know in music they do blind interviews, were people perform behind a curtain to avoid any biases they might have (gender, race etc).<p>May be it’s time to do something similar in Software, since we already are prioritizing white board interviews above anything else?<p>Edit: I am not advocating for Leetcode types of questions. I do believe that most companies hire like this (including my current company, where I get minor if any say in hiring process). So just pointing out my observations regarding the status quo.
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towaway1138大约 6 年前
One possible reason for the lack of interest in older coders is that they&#x27;re largely white and male. Hardly a sympathetic demographic in the current cultural environment.<p>For myself (note: am old), I&#x27;m just following the advice I&#x27;ve always given to other minorities that are discriminated against to various degrees. Which is: don&#x27;t whine, and play the cards you were dealt as best you can.<p>The FAANGS may not, but many other employers can spot talent when they see it. Keep looking--there&#x27;s a niche for everyone.
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drugme大约 6 年前
<i>Blenkhorn says that once she was back on the job market, the ageism she experienced was compounded by sexism. Despite her profound technical achievements, she was dismissed by recruiters as irrelevant and dull, as a “mom.” She recently completed a PhD in computer science and hopes the education will improve her chances in the job market.</i><p>Which is practically infuriating to read, once you take even a passing glance at her easily findable profile.<p>If recruiters are really saying that about her -- this just shows (yet again) how utterly useless they are at what you would think would be their core function:<p>That is, identifying and promoting technical talent.
kokokokoko大约 6 年前
I&#x27;m getting up there in age and have always resigned to the fact that I&#x27;ll probably be making significantly less money in 10 years or less in a low skilled job unless I get lucky. I don&#x27;t want to go into a full management role in software so it&#x27;s just something I&#x27;ve accepted.<p>I&#x27;m not sure how I feel about it. Sometimes I just feel fortunate for the career I&#x27;ve had. I mostly wonder if I&#x27;ll miss it or be glad to move on to a new chapter.
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MrStonedOne大约 6 年前
The doubling rate of programmers has been 5 years for pretty much most of the industries history.<p>This means, right now, half of programmers have been doing it for less than 5 years.<p>This is the primary reason older programmers seem oddly rare, 87.2% of programmers are less than 15 years into their career, 75% less than 10.
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hellllllllooo大约 6 年前
I&#x27;ve worked with at least 3 older IC software engineers (close to retirement age) and their experience has been invaluable in forseeing issues that younger people don&#x27;t spot in advance due to limited experience. Also the breadth of the work that these people have been involved in is very useful in being able to pull experience from other areas into an unrelated project. I genuinely don&#x27;t understand the bias against this unless the person is unwilling to learn new things which hasn&#x27;t been my experience.<p>Hopefully this attitude will change as the valley ages and people will learn that a lot of software engineering principles don&#x27;t change as quickly as the buzzwords do.
lgleason大约 6 年前
All of this boils down to the same thing. Labor arbitrage.<p>D&amp;I benefits those trying to increase the supply of coders and via supply and demand reduce the rates. Older engineers are going to want more money etc.. Of course a nice benefit with the movement (for those who want to exert downward pressure on the wages) is that many D&amp;I initiatives also tend to be ageist. IE: accusing the previous generation for enabling bad behavior, stating that the majority of older workers are white&#x2F;male anyways etc.. Older workers generally are more skeptical of the D&amp;I efforts. The D&amp;I supporters have a penchant for getting people fired etc. for expressing any dissenting views against the cause...even if the person expressing the dissent is an under-represented person.<p>For the ones trying to reduced labor costs it kills two birds with one stone. They get an expanded pool of labor. Plus the D&amp;I crowd does most the dirty work for pushing out older workers. Now rinse wash and repeat with importing workers from low cost countries. The rich get richer and the rank and file engineers get caught up in the battles as either active participants or collateral damage.<p>It has very little to do with doing things that are morally right and all about money. The moral outrage distracts everybody and keeps the infighting going so that the labor does not organize and target the real problem.
gambler大约 6 年前
At this point I am convinced that the stack treadmill most of IT is jogging on gets propped mostly by the people who want to up their salaries by keeping as many people out of their niche as possible. Older devs probably get hit by this harder than most, because I&#x27;d imagine the treadmill gets more tiresome as the time goes by, you see more hype cycles, and become more aware of it. But older devs are by no means the only ones who are affected.<p>&quot;Keeping up with with new technologies&quot; is generally a euphemism for &quot;uses a random set of frameworks I chose&quot;. Amusingly, devs who demand everyone to learn their frameworks are often the same people who try to stop anyone at their company from using or doing anything genuinely new, because it would undermine their position.<p>This is, BTW, why there is so much talk about the &quot;shortage&quot; of software engineers right now.
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kiawe_fire大约 6 年前
It seems many people either think older coders are experienced and wise, or old and stagnant. Younger coders likewise either young, foolish &quot;wheel re-inventers&quot; or up-to-date and ambitious.<p>So far, I&#x27;ve not seen any pattern to back this up. I&#x27;ve worked with a few coders in their mid-20s that knew PHP or Java very well, but refuse to learn a front-end framework or Node JS. They act as though the burden of learning a new stack when they&#x27;ve already learned what they know from school was too much to ask.<p>Likewise, I&#x27;ve worked with coders in their 40s and 50s who still love learning new technologies, and are more than happy to learn the new &quot;Javascript framework of the week&quot;, especially if they see the benefits it provides over what they currently use.<p>I&#x27;m in my early 30s and have a strong distaste for Electron, but I know a mid-40s coder who loves Electron and would never code a desktop app any other way.<p>I find myself reading about Smalltalk and NEXTstep and am continually impressed with the solutions of the generations before me (and their respect for their users&#x27; resources) while the coder in his 50s I&#x27;ve worked with loves that we live in a time where trading RAM and CPU for easy maintainability is the norm.<p>What bothers me isn&#x27;t just the ageism, but also the absolutism based on anecdotes. It seems to me that the same person who would dismiss an older coder based on age, is also the kind of person who would, say, &quot;never hire someone with C# experience even if they have Python experience, because we use Python and anybody with C# experience is slow and inflexible&quot; (real thing a manager once said) or &quot;never hire someone who prefers to use Sublime Text because we use a &#x27;real IDE&#x27; like Netbeans&quot; (again, thing a manager once said).<p>Hire the right man or woman for the job. Pick the right tool for the task at hand. Be open to new technologies and using them for their strengths, but also learn from the good and bad things of the past. None of this seems that difficult to me, yet it seems is a continual problem in the field.
notacoward大约 6 年前
I&#x27;m 53, which makes me about twice median at my company. A lot of this rings true, but I&#x27;ll add one more twist on the &quot;hard to keep skills up to date&quot; aspect. Keeping up with all the technological churn across the industry is damn near a full time job.<p>When you come out of college, you might be pretty close to the state of the art because you&#x27;ve been doing nothing other than getting to that exact point. Then it suddenly gets harder, because most of your time is spent working on whatever technology you already have instead of ramping up on new ones (plus eventually family and such).<p>Sure, you can try to weave as much learning as you can into your job, but it&#x27;s almost never enough. Most people will end up getting further and further behind, or more and more specialized. The harmful effect of the first becomes apparent quickly; the second can actually be quite lucrative for a while until suddenly it isn&#x27;t. Either way, at some point your knowledge becomes pretty severely devalued until you go back to spending near-full-time to catch up.<p>It&#x27;s hard to blame employers for favoring newer knowledge over older, but the effect on older <i>workers</i> is still pretty profound.
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jeffFrom18F大约 6 年前
Maybe a little off topic, but I find it funny how big a deal people make about going to tech conferences. I never got it.<p>For context, I&#x27;m 37. I watch conference topics on topics I find interesting but they&#x27;re often just mildly informative, definitely not the type of thing I&#x27;m going to travel halfway across the planet to see live. A lot of the time it seems to be more about making a name for the person or the company they work for. It seems the number and prominence of tech conferences has exploded in the past few years, I don&#x27;t even remember hearing about these at all when I started out (mid-00s).
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rifung大约 6 年前
&gt; But the IC track is flawed. The programmers I spoke with said that promotion is slower on the IC track, and the distinctions between titles are blurry. According to David Golden, a 45-year-old engineer at MongoDB, “In the development-only track, there’s a bigger hurdle for me to move to the next level. It’s not clear how you get from one to the other and whether it’s something you can actually do anything about.”<p>In my opinion, this is both true but not a problem. The reality is that it&#x27;s much easier to have a large impact as a manager than as an individual contributor. I have worked with L5&#x27;s, L6&#x27;s, and L7&#x27;s, and honestly I couldn&#x27;t tell the difference between them. That&#x27;s not to say the higher level people didn&#x27;t deserve to be higher level as they had more accomplishments, but I personally didn&#x27;t really feel like they had much more impact, if any.<p>For all but the largest and most complex projects, there aren&#x27;t really going to be sufficiently difficult problems that it makes a big difference. I don&#x27;t think I&#x27;ve ever been on a project where there were more difficult problems than engineers capable of solving those problems for any level of difficulty.<p>&gt; Based on interviews with a half-dozen programmers, it is clear to me that companies should create a qualitatively different role for their most senior individual contributors. Candidates for such roles would be judged by their past effectiveness, the same as managers are, not by a fast-churning checklist of skills. Greater clarity would mean engineers could climb the ladder faster, and the prestige and renewed intellectual challenge of each level would keep programmers motivated into their fifties and sixties.<p>&gt; Proven engineers who occupy the most senior roles should be deployed to solve the hardest problems on the most critical projects.<p>At least at Google, being judged based on past effectiveness and being given the hardest problems is already true. Or rather, higher level engineers have greater independence to be able to choose what problems they&#x27;d like to solve.
semitext大约 6 年前
Employers don&#x27;t want to hire jr engineers because they&#x27;re too inexperienced, and are too liable to make mistakes. And employers also don&#x27;t want to hire older engineers who are too expensive, and are less willing to work nonstop. Those are strong signals about what employers in general think of employees.
botswana99大约 6 年前
Try to replace the words &quot;old developer&quot; with &quot;woman developer&quot; or &quot;black developer&quot; and playback the comments people make. It ends up pretty appalling.<p>People who are good at development can&#x27;t be determined by any outside criteria -- you have to talk, test, and learn about them. At my company, we have developers from early twenties to early sixties. We don&#x27;t care about any race, gender, background, anything -- all of it&#x27;s immaterial to whether you can create and code. Join us: <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.datakitchen.io&#x2F;company.html#hiring" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.datakitchen.io&#x2F;company.html#hiring</a>
mnm1大约 6 年前
&gt; In 2007, Mark Zuckerberg, then 22, said out loud what many in the software industry think: “Young people are just smarter.”<p>How dumb or gullible does one have to be to actually think this? I&#x27;m betting it&#x27;s mostly the 20 something year olds that would ascribe to such stupidity.<p>Let&#x27;s just accept that there is no track for programmers period. There are no promotions beyond senior at most companies. You peak in your early 30&#x27;s and then you continue to work at about the same compensation and level for the rest of your career. A few people can find more interesting work, but it will require jumping to different companies and a lot of self-training. Unless it&#x27;s at FAANG, all that work will be for an extra ten, twenty, or thirty thousand dollars. And raises? I&#x27;ve never hear of such a thing in any industry these days.<p>The best option is to keep on top of your skills, find a job working 25-40 hours a week, possibly remote, and find some meaning in other parts of your life. Work isn&#x27;t everything. It&#x27;s not even the most important thing.<p>There are and will be plenty of jobs for older coders. It&#x27;s a new profession, but older coders who stay on top of the tech are still plentiful. You just need to know where to look. Also, many people don&#x27;t make it as coders period. If there is a shortage of old coders, it&#x27;s because people drop out because they can&#x27;t make it. Even better for the rest of us. As if being in your late thirties is old. What bullshit.
danbmil99大约 6 年前
I&#x27;m ancient by HN standards, but I still find my skills are in demand. I would categorize myself as a lifelong learner; I got into python over 15 years ago, mongodb almost 10, and I have taken the time to understand what I need to know about front-end frameworks like angular and react. One employer called me a Swiss army knife, and I take that as a compliment. My knowledge is quite broad and quite deep, though I&#x27;m not a super expert at any one thing and I can&#x27;t claim to know everything about everything.<p>However I have several friends around my age who never bothered to learn anything beyond C++, and they are definitely struggling. They either are stuck in jobs because they&#x27;re the only person who knows how to recompile some ancient module, or they&#x27;re out of work and freaked out about the future.<p>Ageism is real, but so are some of the stereotypes. Older programmers are often going to be more resistant to change, and can be more sure of themselves even when they&#x27;re wrong. The flipside is they often have forgotten more than a young programmer even knows.<p>Present Valley hiring practices seem to optimize for general aptitude, and downplay or disregard the value of experience.<p>There&#x27;s also the undeniable fact that older people in general have built up more obligations and responsibilities, and are often more skeptical of the value of equity because they&#x27;ve been a few startups and their options never amounted to anything. Therefore, they are going to prefer stability and cash over the promise of future rewards.
daxfohl大约 6 年前
I think to age well you have to consistently push your limits. &quot;Learning new things&quot; and &quot;keeping up with tech&quot; is a bit overrated.<p>If you&#x27;re 50 and you&#x27;ve spent many years drilling down through increasingly deep scalability and throughput challenges, that will increase your value beyond what any fresh-out could provide.<p>If instead you spent your time learning a new JS framework each year and are proficient at 30 of them by age 50, good for you, but good luck finding a job.
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losvedir大约 6 年前
Anecdotes are one thing, but I think the data are important. The article brought forth some interesting stats about the median age in the industry. Does anyone know where that data comes from, and if it&#x27;s tracked longitudinally? What I&#x27;m curious about is if older programmers statistically are pushed out of the field, or if it&#x27;s just the case that the field is growing like crazy and newer college grads are flooding into it.
prestonbriggs大约 6 年前
I&#x27;m 63. When I was a kid (pick an age), there weren&#x27;t anywhere near as many programmers as there are now. So while I believe lots of older programmers have gotten out of the field, one way or another, I think the remaining ones are simply hidden in the crowd.
daxfohl大约 6 年前
This hasn&#x27;t been my experience at the larger companies. There&#x27;s always room to grow and stay in a purely technical role.<p>Prior to this I&#x27;d been doing freelance work and there it&#x27;s more difficult. Especially if you don&#x27;t have any particular unique skill or tight relationship with a solid client or a high level of marketing savvy, it&#x27;s hard to compete with kids that are willing to do things at half the price. And I think that&#x27;s fair: even though I consider myself a very solid coder, most consulting gigs I&#x27;ve worked on could have been handled by someone less skilled and worked out just fine.
throwaway-1283大约 6 年前
I feel like if you&#x27;re a knowledge worker who isn&#x27;t interested in management, the IC path is short-lived in almost any profession (not just SWE), no?<p>To me, the future isn&#x27;t very bright for anyone who just wants to be an &quot;employee&quot; for the rest of their life, coder or not.<p>OTOH, the manager path is dangerous in recession times. You lose a lot of &quot;hard&quot; skills, and if you lose your cushy manager job at company A it isn&#x27;t necessarily obvious to company B what value you have when things are tight.
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strikelaserclaw大约 6 年前
Too many people make the mistake of learning laterally, a little bit of framework X, a little bit of framework Y, language X, language Y, then wonder how they can be replaced by people much younger than them. Learn deeply, this is something that cannot be replicated by people with not a whole lot of experience. Tech is a double edged sword, it rewards people who are good at what they do regardless of their age (this might or might not be a good thing depending on where u stand on the age range).
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thegayngler大约 6 年前
Umm just wanted to note one of my friends started a meetup group for over 40 coders in NYC. I&#x27;ll update this post with the link to the meetup. I&#x27;m gonna contact him now.
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lliamander大约 6 年前
1. On keeping up with new technologies<p>There are a lot of skills churn in this industry, and even as someone still on the young side, I&#x27;m rather leery of this trend. I imagine much of this trend has to do with the fact that the population of programmers is still increasing at a significant rate. I heard somewhere that the population of programmers has doubled roughly every 5 years for many decades. Add to that the fact that (as pointed out in this article) more and more programmers move into non-dev roles as they get older. It&#x27;s not too surprising that employers are going to tailor their hiring process to younger engineers if that&#x27;s what the hiring pool looks like.<p>My focus has tended to be on developing proficiency with older technologies that have stood the test of time (Unix, RDBMs, Erlang, etc.). The fact is that when it comes to technology, the longer it has been used, the longer it will likely continue to be used - this applies as much to COBOL as it does to LISP. It&#x27;s not that I don&#x27;t get excited about new technology, but when I do I tend to be more excited about tech that builds on the great ideas of the past rather than tech that purports to be radically new.<p>I don&#x27;t know how this strategy is going to play out. I certainly do enjoy learning new things (that part of why I got into this business in the first place) but I also want to know that I am increasing my value in the market place by developing mastery in skills that are going to have lasting value.<p>2. On the weaknesses of promotional tracks for ICs<p>When I was working at HP, I was told explicitly: &quot;We promote people in the management track to see if they can do the job, we promote people in the technical track if they&#x27;re already doing the job&quot;. I&#x27;m not sure if this is the right approach, but it definitely does make it more difficult to stay technical.<p>There are many valuable qualities that generally only come from seasoned engineers: qualities like leadership, expertise, communication skills, project management skills, and strong professional networks. The problem is that while time is a necessary ingredient to cultivating those qualities, it is not sufficient. We have to be intentional about shoring up our weaknesses in these areas. This is something I&#x27;ve heard from some of the most respected scientists and technologists - people who are arguably at the pinnacle of success and reputation - say that they wished they had done better in.
jrochkind1大约 6 年前
I&#x27;m 43, and I&#x27;m far better at writing code than I was even 5 years ago (and I&#x27;ve always _thought_ I was good... including now :) ). This is an actual skill&#x2F;craft, that you get better with with time. I&#x27;m not sure what to take from that put against the fact that old coders didn&#x27;t seem to last as coders.
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a3n大约 6 年前
&gt; Although I will seek older programmers to speak at PyGotham next year, I don’t yet know where to look.<p>You could look at unemployment and workforce offices that offer job search databases to the unemployed. I went to the Arapahoe County Colorado office a year ago, looking for training grants, and saw pretty big listings for coders.
_bxg1大约 6 年前
At age 27, I find myself already qualified for most &quot;senior&quot; job postings I see, which is a bit concerning.<p>Do any of the &quot;older&quot; folks here have advice on orienting one&#x27;s career to brace against this effect (beyond the typical &quot;always be learning&quot;)? Feels like it&#x27;s coming up quick.
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torgian大约 6 年前
I’m 36 and I kind of consider myself an older programmer, if for no other reason than the fact that others my age also consider themselves older coders.<p>I’m not the greatest, but I get the job done and produce results. That’s what businesses want.still, I wonder how sustainable that is.
ummonk大约 6 年前
The article seems to imply that companies need to find a way for older programmers to continue advancing up the ladder as ICs. It is not clear that this is justified. What if there are diminishing (or even flat) returns on raw experience as an IC beyond, say, 10 years?
accnumnplus1大约 6 年前
To re-phrase this: kids, if you&#x27;re getting into tech, you might want to think again.
droptablemain大约 6 年前
Oh christ, this is terrifying. <i>Runs off to to learn a new stack</i>
sizzle大约 6 年前
Wouldn&#x27;t working remotely solve the ageism problem?<p>Assuming a large component of ageism in tech might be related to narcissism and in-group bias.
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VLM大约 6 年前
A useful cultural comparison to &quot;coders should be turned into Soylent at 35 that&#x27;s all they&#x27;ll be good for&quot; would be Bachelor Nation, which my MiL is a part of, where any show candidate under 25 trying to get married is considered a youthful idiot too unwise to tie their own shoes much less live with a person and become a parent. Under 25 candidates are considered worthless and taking up space for more realistic candidates over 25 preferably around 30.<p>So its an indication of an extreme sickness in a society or culture where younger than 27 is too young and dumb to pick a spouse, then from 27 to 35 is the only economically viable life, then at 35 they&#x27;re too old to be hired anymore so turn em into soylent they&#x27;re good for nothing past that. Crazy that our ancestors were productive members of society from 18 to 65, and the most gaslit generation tries to hide the economic decline by claiming its &quot;natural or self evident&quot; that kids these days only get to live as productive adults from 27-35.<p>I mean... pro sports players have longer careers than coastal programmers...<p>Another hilarious analogy is the claim the building trades are horrible because 30 years of that will destroy your knees or whatever; well, the solution to that isn&#x27;t a 8 year, at most, &quot;career&quot; writing code. Plenty of 50-something electricians making bank decades after their peers who went into programming are utterly unemployable in their field...<p>A similar sickness can be seen in K12 school teaching where the average teacher now has only a couple years experience before getting kicked out for being too expensive and too many kids willing to work cheap.<p>Fundamentally a culture&#x2F;society that is built on the demand side to have people spend like crazy from ages 18-65, if not 0-85, is utterly doomed to collapse if that culture is only willing to pay a tiny minority of people ages 25-35.<p>I would argue programming is not necessarily a career path any more than being a carpenter or other labor job; some people will be &quot;up or out&quot; in five years, but I&#x27;m not sure why someone supposedly can not program for 40 years, any more than I have no idea why a doctor can prescribe for 40 years, or a truck driver can drive for 40 years, or a bean counter can count beans for 40 years.<p>Another cultural trend somehow not mentioned is kids need the baby sitting an open office nursery provides; if everyone older than 40 works as a contractor for more money, its not really a problem that companies only hire children as W-2 employees. I&#x27;m probably never going to be a W-2 employee again for a variety of age and race and gender discrimination reasons; I&#x27;m OK with that and enjoying making plenty of money outside the W-2 nursery.
ArenaSource大约 6 年前
I would like to see a Bugs vs Age study
qqqwerty大约 6 年前
I have been thinking about this a bit lately as I enter my &#x27;mid-career&#x27; stage and am contemplating a minor career shift (same industry, different specialization). Also, I have some recent experience that was rather illuminating regarding agism in the industry.<p>1. The pool of older programmers is a little bit &#x27;lemony&#x27;. The &quot;really talented ones&quot; either move up into cushy roles, move into freelancing&#x2F;consulting, or start their own thing, etc., so they won&#x27;t be applying to random job listings. And most &#x27;good to average&#x27; individuals will build up a solid professional network throughout their career and if done properly they should have an easy-ish time finding and getting new roles. So that leaves folks who are a) for some reason their network doesn&#x27;t extend to the job they want (maybe they are trying to switch fields, or they are targeting a small company with no mutual connections) or b) they are a lemon (to put it politely). And to complicate matters, the standard programming quizzes&#x2F;whiteboard interview doesn&#x27;t work too well on more experienced programmers. Their raw programming knowledge&#x2F;ability is usually good enough, generally the issue is with something else (slow, hard to work with etc..).<p>2. If you are an ambitious 20&#x2F;30 something doing the hiring, unless you have really good &#x27;job security&#x27; (like best friends with the founder or some other leverage) then it&#x27;s probably easier to hire folks with less experience who won&#x27;t challenge you for your role. This is somewhat an extension of the &#x27;A&#x27;s hire A&#x27;s, B&#x27;s hire C&#x27;s&#x27; mantra, but on the axis of seniority and experience as opposed to talent. There are plenty of senior programmers that are comfortable being an IC under a younger manager, but there are also plenty that would happily jump on the management track and climb right over you if the opportunity was there. And the 20&#x2F;30 something manager won&#x27;t know which one they hired until its&#x27; too late.<p>3. There are plenty of industries and opportunities where seniority and experience is respected, and many of these industries are hiring programmers. You just have to look outside of the SV bubble. Banking, Healthcare, Energy, Construction, etc... And because a lot of these industries operate in more regulated and bureaucratic environments the &#x27;SV 10x ninja&#x27; is just not that useful. And some of the &#x27;lemons&#x27; mentioned above, who don&#x27;t fit the SV mold, but who are perfectly serviceable employees in most regards would probably do fine in these environments.<p>I also think we are starting to age out of the &#x27;high school dropout gets $20M in funding&#x27; era, which exacerbated the agism-in-programming issue. That sort or worked in consumer web&#x2F;app tech, but tends to fail spectacularly everywhere else. So at the very least this &#x27;post-40s&#x27; agism will probably start to fade, and likely get replaced with the &#x27;post-60&#x27;s&#x27;
781大约 6 年前
&gt; He was interviewed by a younger engineer who told him, “I’m always surprised when older programmers keep up on technology.”<p>As someone relatively old, I&#x27;ve been in a lot of developer interviews. I also noticed that older programmers tend to not be as up to date in newer technologies or ways of doing things.<p>I don&#x27;t think it&#x27;s strictly limited to technology. How many 50-year old do you know who listen to trap music? Or approve of the way teens dress these days?<p>It&#x27;s just the classic &quot;older people tend to be more conservative&quot; fact. At some point most people get stuck in the things the were doing&#x2F;liking when they were younger. The hate new music, they dismiss newer technologies (to open a rats nest: Electron anyone?)<p>I&#x27;m sure I&#x27;ll get comments like &quot;I&#x27;m 18 and I hate trap music and Electron&quot;. That&#x27;s not the point, I&#x27;m talking about distributions not individual cases.
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0x8BADF00D大约 6 年前
IC doesn’t seem like a viable track. Consulting in a specialized area (i.e. FORTRAN or COBOL mainframe programmers) seems to be where it’s at. Beef up your network and you can setup a gig consulting at upwards of $200&#x2F;hr on some obscure system that very few people know about.
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BXLE_1-1-BitIs1大约 6 年前
The smart young coder needs to plan for being tossed on the trash heap somewhere between 35 &amp; 45. So live frugally and build your &quot;on the trash heap&quot; fund.
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TheMagicHorsey大约 6 年前
Most older programmers want to be paid more because they are old. Not because they bring added value. That&#x27;s the issue. I&#x27;m over 40. I have no issues getting the compensation I think I am worth. I also am not embarrassed to be paid the same amount as people ten years younger than me. I&#x27;m not adding more value than them on a productivity basis ... so I should not get paid more.<p>Truly excellent programmers in my age group are absurdly well paid as consultants. But it takes courage and extreme productivity to live like that. Most people my age don&#x27;t have the gumption to do that.