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Women: Learn to Program This Summer

268 点作者 jl大约 6 年前

34 条评论

adenadel大约 6 年前
Here&#x27;s the blog post explaining why Jessica is doing this<p><a href="http:&#x2F;&#x2F;foundersatwork.posthaven.com&#x2F;why-i-started-the-summer-hackers-program" rel="nofollow">http:&#x2F;&#x2F;foundersatwork.posthaven.com&#x2F;why-i-started-the-summer...</a>
dang大约 6 年前
All: there&#x27;s room on HN for good-faith debate, but not for ideological flamebait (regardless of which flavor), so can you please not post that? It&#x27;s tedious, off topic, and boy does it suck the oxygen out of a thread.<p>Here&#x27;s a test: ask yourself how much intellectual curiosity there is in your comment or your motivation for posting. If you don&#x27;t find much, please hold off until you do. Intellectual curiosity is the reason this site exists [1], and it&#x27;s a fragile factor nowadays amid the rage and hysteria online. Keep HN curious.<p>1. <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;news.ycombinator.com&#x2F;newsguidelines.html" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;news.ycombinator.com&#x2F;newsguidelines.html</a>
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ajiang大约 6 年前
EDIT: To clarify that the money is going directly to private individuals, as per Austen.<p>Incredible, thanks for putting your money where your values are @jl.<p>As for the numerous comments in this post around reverse sexism &#x2F; reverse discrimination:<p>1. This is a private individual giving personal capital to other private individuals, supporting a personal cause. It is hard to both claim principles of free market and rally against this.<p>2. Private companies making hiring decisions are correcting for an indefinite history of bias. That doesn&#x27;t mean they&#x27;re hiring unqualified individuals, simply that they&#x27;re making sure they put in measure to correct for biases and can identify individuals with the great qualifications that in the past would have been past up due to arbitrary euphemisms for gender &#x2F; racial bias like &#x27;bad culture fit&#x27;.<p>3. None of this is to say that you personally are not experiencing a challenging time or are not subject to bias in any way. None of this should diminish your personal challenges in the work environment. That should be addressed. This particular individual (@jl) and this particular company (Lambda School) are just not addressing that particular cause at this moment. And that should be ok.
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seancoleman大约 6 年前
My girlfriend, a nurse of 10+ years, just started learning to code on her own, built her first (basic) website (<a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.nataliepeterson.dev" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.nataliepeterson.dev</a>) and is applying to Lambda School already. I sent this to her this morning and she was elated.<p>Programs like this really work.
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40acres大约 6 年前
Some of the comments in this thread is a master class of how discrimination and gatekeeping work not just in our industry but in society as a whole.<p>How can we simultaneously be an industry built on free an open source software and yet try to put up walls around our industry when efforts are made to make it more accessible to others?<p>The barriers to programming are being lowered and this is an excellent thing. More diverse companies, different types of people to bounce ideas on, new perspectives. This is what our industry needs more than ever, and yet so many feel a threat veiled by concerns of affirmative action and &#x27;reverse discrimination&#x27;.<p>We need to acknowledge the barriers that have existed in our industry but may be blind to you personally because you never had to deal with it. For one, access to a PC for a long time was restricted to those with low incomes. My mother saved her income tax refund for two years to buy our first PC, the one I learned to program on. The schools I attended didn&#x27;t have a computer lab until my junior year of high school. It&#x27;s a great thing that programming is being spread to those who did not have access before. If software is eating the world everyone had better become familiar.
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yakshaving_jgt大约 6 年前
I have several female friends who find Affirmative Action campaigns so off-putting, they decide against joining the industry.<p>One friend recently complained to me that all the AA enthusiasts just want to talk about feminism and women in the workplace, and not about actually writing code. She was incensed because she was invited to a &#x27;Girls Code&#x27; meetup, where women would learn about algorithms by modelling their own menstrual cycles[0]. She was (understandably) frustrated, saying that her interests extend beyond what comes out of her genitals.<p>This is anecdotal, sure, but amongst my social circle, this seems to be the rule rather than the exception.<p>I sense a bazillion downvotes coming my way. You may think these opinions I am passing along are incredibly incorrect, but they <i>are</i> the opinions of <i>women</i>.<p>[0]: <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;imgur.com&#x2F;a&#x2F;jFLU0C8" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;imgur.com&#x2F;a&#x2F;jFLU0C8</a><p>EDIT: It took no time at all for the downvotes to arrive, as expected. There is no such thing as the sisterhood. Feminists will immediately cast out any woman who doesn&#x27;t hold the &quot;right&quot; opinions.
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rosterface大约 6 年前
I recently completed a very difficult job search where I unfortunately had to lean on my ethnicity (I’m Mexican) to pass through very overt screening against white men. I was shocked to hear from multiple companies, large and small, that they did not want men and white men in particular.<p>Now we see a YC co-founder giving 40 women $9000 to learn to program.<p>Where does it end? I was really sad that while I personally can survive in this environment (if I abandon my ideals of not being judged by my genetics), many good men who are passionate about their work are being pressured from all sides.<p>I honestly don’t see how any of this is legal but it’s such a taboo to talk about that fixing the problem seems impossible without a major shift back to valuing skills above demographics.
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DBYCZ大约 6 年前
Anyone who argues that there should be &quot;More women in tech&quot; needs to go visit a medical college. Completely filled with super smart women interested in science.<p>If STEM women found Coding as interesting as they did Medicine (which is arguably more competitive and prestigious), we wouldn&#x27;t have any shortage of women writing code. There is nothing wrong with either way, just let people do what they like to do.
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cotelletta大约 6 年前
A while back I saw a coworker virtue signal about the parallels between tech and nursing. There were gender problems in both, and it was the same cause, he said.<p>Except, it&#x27;s not the same cause at all, it&#x27;s just the same blame. Watch:<p>Not enough women in tech: &quot;men, it&#x27;s your fault, stop being so crude and competitive. Change your working style to suit and attract women. Stop making crude jokes and having arguments.&quot;<p>Not enough men in nursing: &quot;men, it&#x27;s your fault, stop being such cowards who think a social job is not manly. Don&#x27;t listen to your friends if they mock you, it&#x27;s toxic masculinity.&quot;<p>What would actually be equality is if the first was paired with:<p>&quot;Women nurses, stop being so catty and learn to be more stoic to attract men in the workplace. Change your habits and social style to be more factual and problem oriented.&quot;<p>Or the second paired with:<p>&quot;Women in tech, stop listening to your girlfriends who think tech is not glamorous and cute. Value your own self worth and improve your self sufficiency. Don&#x27;t be a mean girl.&quot;<p>The fact that this very simple gender swap is treated as invalid demonstrates how intellectually bankrupt the diversity movement is. Their justifications only come after the fact, after they&#x27;ve already decided who qualifies for sympathy and victimhood, and who doesn&#x27;t.<p>Despite all this concern about subtle implicit bias, about societal pressure and messages invisibly reinforced by society... Somehow gender studies experts have still not noticed that some of the most implicitly gendered terms are expectations that only men are meant to live up to: to not be a coward and not be a creep.<p>If a woman values her own comfort and safety over self sacrificing? That does not make her a coward. If a woman expects to be welcomed and to be able to join a social interaction a priori? Not entitlement, not creepy.<p>50 years of gender studies, and society is only more willing to entertain such pandering and double standards at the expense of men.<p>H L Mencken was right: men are stupid because they actually think concepts like honor and duty are real, instead of just a stick used to shame them into submission.<p>No thank you. &quot;Historically marginalized&quot; and &quot;traditionally underrepresented&quot; is a giant excuse built upon the soft bigotry of low expectations. The only people consistently marginalized have been the poor, and I&#x27;ve never seen more spoiled, clueless, unaware adults than at &quot;diverse&quot; tech events.
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hhs大约 6 年前
I think this is wonderful.<p>Makes me think of Eleanor Roosevelt. She started by focusing on a group. But there were a lot of problems in her times and she recognized that, and she went on to tackle so many things like anti-poverty and unemployed youth.<p>I wonder if Jessica Livingston will do something similar, since it&#x27;s written in the FAQ: <i>&quot;Since neither I nor Lambda School have tried this before, I wanted to reduce the number of variables. If it works this summer, we may expand it next summer.&quot;</i>
TheAdamAndChe大约 6 年前
There will be benefits to this program for those who participate, and I wholly wish those women who have the opportunity to participate the best of luck.<p>However, I also worry about the motives behind the program. A huge part of feminism is a push towards gender equality[1]. Discriminating against half of the population while aiming for equality is an odd way to behave.<p>I know the blog post did not mention gender equality as a goal, but I just completely fail to see how discrimination like this will lead to anything but increased inter-gender conflict and the persistence of stereotypes in the field.<p>[1] <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;en.wikipedia.org&#x2F;wiki&#x2F;Feminism" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;en.wikipedia.org&#x2F;wiki&#x2F;Feminism</a>
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dmitrygr大约 6 年前
California&#x27;s Unruh Civil Rights Act specifically outlaws discrimination based on sex, race, color, religion, ancestry, national origin, age, disability, medical condition, genetic information, marital status, or sexual orientation. This law applies to all businesses in California.<p><a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;en.wikipedia.org&#x2F;wiki&#x2F;Unruh_Civil_Rights_Act" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;en.wikipedia.org&#x2F;wiki&#x2F;Unruh_Civil_Rights_Act</a>
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peterwwillis大约 6 年前
So, this brings up some questions in my mind:<p>1) Who is it being offered to? Clearly, women in college. The majority of people in college are privileged (in this country, anyway) so you&#x27;re offering free money to potentially privileged people. Is it possible to prioritize women who need the money over ones that could pay for it?<p>2) If I offered $9,000 in training for welding to someone in college, they might take that too. It&#x27;s well known that the things people study in college and careers they prepare for often don&#x27;t always result in what they do for the rest of their working life. Is it possible to prioritize individuals who demonstrate a consistent&#x2F;continued interest in being in the industry, rather than random students looking for a free ride?<p>3) Where is this being marketed? To insiders who already are in a position to want to be in the industry and find a place there? Or underprivileged and minority communities that might need more of a hand to find out about such opportunities before they can work towards them?<p>Basically, I think it&#x27;s a nice idea, but I think it can be tuned to optimize doing the most good with some minor tweaks.
harrisonjackson大约 6 年前
I like to take the most positive outlook on these sorts of things... What a fantastic opportunity for 40 women!<p>In my career and life, I&#x27;ve been fortunate to have a lot of great opportunities - some that I sought out and some that fell into my lap. I&#x27;ve tried to pay it forward when I can and I am sure that these women will too given the chance.<p>The impact of these 40 scholarships could be 40 more technical cofounders or mentors or inventors - and that is a great thing for the community. I hope that 1+ of these ladies offer me a great opportunity or create an amazing product that I love :D
leereeves大约 6 年前
I honestly do think this is a good idea. She saw a need, identified a way to help, and is generously contributing. And if some women feel more comfortable or learn better in a boot camp for women only, I wish them the best.<p>And yet it makes me and many others angry, not for what it is, but because of the social context in which it occurs. There&#x27;s an all too common attitude these days that success for white people, men, and above all white men is something to oppose.[1,2] That cruelty toward men is acceptable.[3] That &quot;it&#x27;s impossible to be racist toward whites or sexist toward men&quot;. That sitting comfortably is &quot;manspreading&quot; and masculinity is toxic.<p>The world is divided in part because of efforts like this. Is more division really something to celebrate?<p>1: <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.thedailybeast.com&#x2F;the-unbearable-male-privilege-of-beto-orourke" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.thedailybeast.com&#x2F;the-unbearable-male-privilege-...</a><p>2: <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.thedailybeast.com&#x2F;to-bernie-sanders-beto-orourke-and-the-other-white-male-dems-running-to-be-president-in-2020-can-you-not" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.thedailybeast.com&#x2F;to-bernie-sanders-beto-orourke...</a><p>3: <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.nytimes.com&#x2F;2018&#x2F;08&#x2F;02&#x2F;business&#x2F;media&#x2F;sarah-jeong-new-york-times.html" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.nytimes.com&#x2F;2018&#x2F;08&#x2F;02&#x2F;business&#x2F;media&#x2F;sarah-jeon...</a>
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black-tea大约 6 年前
People: do whatever you want to do this summer. There are virtually zero barriers to entry for programming today. They&#x27;ve been minimal for a good twenty years now as it is.
DantesKite大约 6 年前
In general, making it easier for more people to get into programming feels feels like a good thing to me. Programming is a game-changer in terms of its ability to amplify talents and interests. It&#x27;s the longest lever I know of.<p>What stops people from getting into programming, however, is a bit more difficult to determine, but there does seem to be patterns. Less women and blacks compared to asians and whites.<p>Oddly enough, trying to figure out the causes of these differences intersects a broad range of fields from evolution to sexual discrimination to access to resources.<p>And because there&#x27;s so much uncertainty, the explanation quickly turns into politics.
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dzink大约 6 年前
Spreading this as far and wide as I can. Coding is as critical as literacy for the next 20 years and there are too many programs and teachers that teach it poorly, alienating large segments of the population. Lambda is among the best. I hope they can scale past 40 students for this in the future.
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MagicPropmaker大约 6 年前
There was a lawsuit in 2018. I&#x27;m not sure what the outcome was:<p><a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.thecollegefix.com&#x2F;women-only-tech-scholarships-man-tax-violate-california-discrimination-laws-lawsuit&#x2F;" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.thecollegefix.com&#x2F;women-only-tech-scholarships-m...</a>
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tmaly大约 6 年前
I am working on an effort to build a course for my younger daughter. Its less ambitious than this, but she is having a lot of fun learning.<p>I am targeting visual programming with Scratch 3
mettamage大约 6 年前
If it&#x27;s an online programming class, then why not extent the offer to people based outside the US? This US protectionism thing is driving me crazy.<p>I&#x27;ll offer my services to Lambda School and&#x2F;or YC for free if that means I can extent this offer to EU people, provided that my living expenses are covered. I&#x27;m in between jobs so I have the perfect schedule for it.<p>I&#x27;m from the EU.
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nck4222大约 6 年前
I&#x27;m trying to figure out on what side of the debate I fall on this one.<p>On the one hand, women have obviously been disadvantaged in many ways, for many years, which is wrong. The gender disparity in software development is well documented, and should be fixed. No one should be discouraged from learning, or opportunities denied because of gender.<p>On the other hand, a for-profit company deciding to offer free services to individual women, who may or may not be disadvantaged, simply because they&#x27;re women, doesn&#x27;t sit well with me either. Frankly, it seems likely that anyone who applies to lambda school (either gender), probably lean towards the more advantaged end than the less advantaged end. So it seems likely this is going to result in women with plenty of advantages already, receiving $9000 worth of education for free, while explicitly denying this opportunity to men, and continuing to disadvantage members of both groups.<p>So, I guess my question is, why is this morally OK? If this was targeted specifically to disadvantaged people, or disadvantaged women, or if it was a non-profit, it seems like this would be an easier call for me.
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AmIDev大约 6 年前
IMHO, this is the right approach to boost the ratio of women in technology. That is, by teaching coding to those women who don&#x27;t know it.<p>Most companies seem to focus on improving ratio of women in their company itself, by targeting say female CS undergrads, which doesn&#x27;t help increase the ratio of women in tech(as these women have already made the choice to be in tech). To be clear, this approach makes perfect sense from the company&#x27;s perspective, but it ain&#x27;t helping the greater cause.
wtmt大约 6 年前
Off topic, but I found this circular reference apt for a post about learning programming, and thus quite amusing too. This post links to &quot;Why I started the Summer Hackers Program&quot; [1] and that post has a link to this one.<p><a href="http:&#x2F;&#x2F;foundersatwork.posthaven.com&#x2F;why-i-started-the-summer-hackers-program" rel="nofollow">http:&#x2F;&#x2F;foundersatwork.posthaven.com&#x2F;why-i-started-the-summer...</a>
danielscrubs大约 6 年前
I can tell you that my female, former classmates that graduated CS are earning way more than the males do. It&#x27;s trivial to get a male developer with a 5-year degree, but a female one? If media focused on that instead of the negative things, more females would go into the CS-programmes, which would solve this debate once and for all.
chaoxu大约 6 年前
How are the 9000 dollars given? Because someone might be in the US under certain visa issues. (For example, OPT, F1, etc).
75dvtwin大约 6 年前
I read the blog-post, but it does not make clear to me why Jessica chose to offer the money to <i>women</i> only.<p>&gt; &quot; Specifically, she can’t build the first version of her product and is forced to find a cofounder who can. Because she can&#x27;t judge technical ability, she&#x27;ll often choose the wrong person for the job. And in a startup, if you choose the wrong programmer or cofounder and have to replace them, the delay alone can be enough to kill the company. …&quot;<p>I have met a number of people who cannot program, but believe that they have a great idea (only if somebody could just build that app for them …).<p>Even random neighbors who learn that I write mobile apps just sort of assume,<p>that I do not have my own ideas -- and instead, just program somebody else&#x27;s ideas into life (sort of like I am a typist, but an author of the novel, I am typing -- has to be somebody else).<p>All that gender-bias in recent, US, tech grants does, is re-enforces the stigma that women in US are &#x27;special-needs&#x27;, as far as it comes to technology.<p>This is not a good stigma to have, and it cannot be broken by appeal to a moral high.<p>As a parent, it is also difficult to explain to my son, why my daughter would qualify for such a generous grant, but he would not... What explanation is there ?<p>As few on this thread, I think there are better way to identify people who born into (or became over time) into a very unfair and disadvantageous environment.<p>And giving those, the extra help, offering them generosity -- is nothing but heart warming. And deserves huge applauds and replication.<p>There are boys and girls from disadvantaged environments, some lost parents to cancer, to car accidents, to wars, to terrorist attacks.<p>Some are in different countries suffering from horrible illnesses (that were caused by environment catastrophes).<p>Some were unlucky to be born to drug abusing parents.<p>---<p>It does take more work, may be more passion, to reach out to those -- but I think it would better society more.
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dgzl大约 6 年前
I don&#x27;t think throwing money and free services at women while we sit on our knees begging them to join us the best way to get them interested.<p>I&#x27;m generally against equality of outcome, and support equality of opportunity, which this is not.
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happppy大约 6 年前
People are only learning to program because they saw good money, every other person now a days is just learning to program to get into programming job even though they have 0 interest in programming. Due to all this, CS is very saturated, and there will be one day when every other person will be a programmer, jobs will be few so competition will be high but pays will be less. If you were that interested in programming you would have known it when you are choosing your career paths. You saw money, you came in, nothing else. And what&#x27;s with this women learn to program, I never saw any Men learn to program. They say it like CS schools do not accept girls when they apply, idiots.
allen37大约 6 年前
A great message. I love HN for this very reason. Just today I noticed an article about an Army interrogator turned concientious objector. At the latter portion of my military career I too was an interrogator. I avoided posting because I realized the topic was too hot and likely to become political. It didn&#x27;t hurt my feelings, I simply moved on with my day.
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grondilu大约 6 年前
Isn&#x27;t programming a skill that can be learned alone in a fairly straightforward manner? I mean, most programming languages have extensive documentation, tutorials and so on (at least FOSS dynamical languages like Python, Rust, Perl...). From my personal experience and what I can guess about hackers I&#x27;ve talked to for instance on IRC, that&#x27;s how most guys learned it : the web is full of resources for whoever wants to learn.<p>Now, if for some reason women don&#x27;t take this road and &quot;need&quot; someone to hold their hand in order to learn programming, I would argue that maybe those women don&#x27;t have the intrinsic motivation to do so and trying to force it upon them may be a gross waste of time and resources.<p>Not to mention that programming can be a tedious and lame job (sitting in front of a computer all day is often mentioned as a genuine nightmare), so if you have to do it, you&#x27;d better love it in the first place.
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alexashka大约 6 年前
&#x27;breaking into the startup world&#x27; - sigh... How do you break into being a domain expert via 5-10+ years of experience?<p>What do people think start-ups are exactly? Random people with no domain expertise coding their way to great products?
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pj_mukh大约 6 年前
There are so many women I know that are cognitively over-qualified for the jobs they are in, and kind of stuck because of finances. I am sending this to all of them.
chasingthewind大约 6 年前
I think this is really commendable. When you put your money where your mouth is you really show that you&#x27;re serious about your values. All the best to the forty future winners of this grant!
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