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Name It, and They Will Come

357 点作者 stablemap大约 6 年前

35 条评论

coldtea大约 6 年前
Even if you don&#x27;t understand the point the author is trying to make, this part you should be able to understand perfectly, and I find it a perfectly accurate description of what happens 90% of the time:<p>= = = =<p>The top comment thread picks on the coding style in a README example. It turns into an argument about indentation with over a hundred replies and a brief history of how different programming languages approached formatting. There are obligatory mentions of gofmt and Python. Have you tried Prettier?<p>Somebody mentions that open source projects shouldn’t have beautiful landing pages because it’s misleading marketing. What if a junior developer falls for it without fully understanding the fundamentals?<p>In a response, somebody argues the landing page design is boring. Additionally, it’s broken in Firefox. Clearly, this means the project author doesn’t care about the open web. Is the web as we know it dying? It’s time for some game theory…<p>The next comment is a generic observation about the nature of abstractions, and how they can lead to too much “boilerplate” (or, alternatively, “magic”). The top reply explains that one shouldn’t confuse “simple” with “easy”. Actually, Rich Hickey gave a very good talk about this. Have you watched it?<p>Finally, why do we need libraries at all? Some languages do well with a built-in standard library. Is npm a mistake? The leftpad accident could happen again. Should we build npm right into the browser? What about the standards?<p>Confused, you close the tab.
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Deimorz大约 6 年前
I honestly don&#x27;t understand what this post is trying to say. Most of it just describes the usual internet bike-shedding (<a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;en.wikipedia.org&#x2F;wiki&#x2F;Law_of_triviality#Examples" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;en.wikipedia.org&#x2F;wiki&#x2F;Law_of_triviality#Examples</a>), and then says that you could have avoided it by just... telling a story or naming something, but doesn&#x27;t elaborate at all on what it means by that, how to do it, or why it would help.
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ignoramous大约 6 年前
Pretty much summarises comment threads here on news.yc much like this blog post: <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;danluu.com&#x2F;hn-comments&#x2F;" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;danluu.com&#x2F;hn-comments&#x2F;</a><p>One way to avoid the pitfall of folks resorting to talk abt &#x27;universally shared experiences&#x27; is to take control of the conversation: One way to do that is to offer AMA, or ask a question yourself.<p>I&#x27;ve seen the keybase founders (esp malgorithms) and to an extent the Cloudflare founders (esp jgrahamc) do it pretty successfully here.<p>An example of an independent developer (browsh) shaping the conversation to their benefit: <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;news.ycombinator.com&#x2F;item?id=17487552" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;news.ycombinator.com&#x2F;item?id=17487552</a>
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munk-a大约 6 年前
That sort of minimalist looking webpage using a big round font for the headers really does make it hard to absorb the gist of the post - sorry, have I overreacted? Perhaps a less fleeting writing style could have set up a more concrete thesis that would deliver a conclusion to their statement.<p>That last bit is actually quite relevant - due to law of triviality and such there will always be bikeshedding, but the way to cut through that (in my opinion) is to clearly set a scenario, set an agenda, open with a problem and set the dialog up to resolve the problem. This is why I have begun (usually) refusing any meetings without a clearly outlined agenda, and when agendaless meetings get an agenda sometimes I&#x27;ll duck out of the meeting and submit feedback in writing _to_ the agenda. This is also why I have a bit of an issue with this article, it is titled in such an irrelevant manner that it can&#x27;t help but generate bikeshedding around it - the title is good and catchy sure, but I really don&#x27;t understand how it relates to the actual meat of the article (which does raise some relevant points).<p>If the suggestion is that naming (adding a short descriptor) to... &quot;stuff&quot; makes it easier to keep discussions about that stuff on topic then please back it up with an example, provide some justification, instead the article reaches ~95% then doing a hard right to inject a catchy quote that seems unrelated to the rest of the verbiage.
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faizshah大约 6 年前
My problem with open sourcing my code is I always feel like someone else must have done it already and done it better.<p>On the subject of irrelevant comments: I see HN more as a place to discuss topics relating to the OP link rather than discussing the OP link itself. A lot of the value of HN for me comes from learning how other people see a subject or what related ideas&#x2F;libraries there are. For me as a commenter, the threads I like are exactly the ones that a submitter might not like: threads filled with many semi-related comments.<p>I do think we absolutely have a problem with overly negative and discouraging comments on HN (and the programming community in general) though. The worst kinds of comments are comments like the “yet another js framework...” on someone’s show HN. You’re discouraging someone’s work on their specific library by bringing up some larger problem you see in the industry. So I absolutely agree that those sorts of semi-related comments belong in a separate post on that specific issue.
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petercooper大约 6 年前
<i>We tend to discuss things that are easy to talk about.</i><p>AJAX (as it was at the time) is a prime example of what Dan&#x27;s talking about, I think. As a term that enveloped the whole idea of having JavaScript dynamically load content from a server, it really brought developers together in <i>discussing</i> and experimenting, and even resulted in naming a publication on the topic (Ajaxian). Did it matter that almost no-one was really fetching XML (the X in AJAX)? No.<p>&quot;HTML5&quot; played a similar role for a bunch of technologies 7-8 years ago, even including technologies that were nothing to do with the HTML5 spec (such as WebGL). Or DHTML 15-18 years ago.<p>We now see something similar with &quot;serverless&quot; which a lot of people criticize as a pointless term <i>except</i> it <i>is</i> bringing together discussion around a group of related concepts and is valuable in that role alone.<p>Other such terms that are ultimately ambiguous under close scrutiny but which allow discussion and communities to organize around them: IaaS, SaaS, NoSQL, devops..
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atlassubbed大约 6 年前
I&#x27;ve always liked Dan Abramov&#x27;s posts. He is very real, if that makes sense. This one really helps me mentally. Showing new work the world is hard, and people will always have something negative to say. There&#x27;s also the issue of timing. When is it &quot;too early&quot; to show off a project? I always wanna post my projects to HN but then I remember how my documentation isn&#x27;t done, or how I haven&#x27;t written any tutorials or articles, and I figure I&#x27;d better wait, otherwise people will just bounce because they didn&#x27;t find anything. I think the fraction of people who look at source code because they didn&#x27;t find any docs is very small.
flwralex大约 6 年前
&quot;By now, you’re convinced: This idea deserves to be heard.&quot;<p>This week my first public project got 7 git stars. The feeling is fantastic. I don&#x27;t have homepage or story, but I have a nice diagram :)<p>The question for me is why I&#x27;m releasing this, to feed the ego monster or because I really beleive it&#x27;s worth it? I hope it&#x27;s not the first, but not sure, tbh.
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wwv25大约 6 年前
Thanks for the writeup, Dan. This is how I feel about most code reviews. It&#x27;s difficult to comprehend all the code and focus on the _actual_ problem being solved rather than naming conventions and syntax. And yes, I realize the irony by posting a tangentially-related comment on HN.
pedalpete大约 6 年前
Wow, most of the comments in this thread completely miss the point, which... is the point. So meta.<p>We suffered this exact same issue for years, but it isn&#x27;t only in git, readme or marketing pages that the problem exists. When pitching or telling people what we do, because what we are doing is new, we struggled to find the right words and therefore, got blank stares about what we were doing.<p>The same thing happens with the introduction of many new products and systems.<p>We have gone through many iterations of how to describe our product and the industry moves making it the next big thing. From &quot;3d visualizations&quot; to &quot;interactive 3d scenes&quot; and currently settling in on &quot;spatial media&quot;. Each version gets successively better, but until you give someone a hook to hang your product on, they don&#x27;t know what to do with it. That is the shared vocabulary.<p>For us, it goes like this. &quot;The future of media is spatial,viewers expect to be able to control their perspective in a 3d scene. We&#x27;ve seen this with VR, 360 video, and gaming. We are another type of spatial media. We&#x27;re like drone shot video, but the viewer is in control of their perspective, and we create the scene without a camera.&quot;
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nothrabannosir大约 6 年前
[on the subject of HN negativity raised in other posts—sorry for hijacking this post about post hijacking!]<p>One problem with HN, which I would love to hear othersʼ opinion about, is: the HN Guidelines incentivise negative colour in threads. You get 10 upvotes, and 1 critical comment: to anyone reading the entire thread now looks negative. Noone sees the silent &quot;+1&quot;s, which, I feel, do add a lot of positivity and encouragement!<p>I honestly don’t know what to change, or how. Hiding scores is great: it avoids the asinine karma peacocking, endemic in most similar forums. Allowing &quot;+1&quot; comments would probably be worse.<p>But the result is there. I think HN has a lot more positivity than we can see. But it remains hidden in the database.<p>Positivity on HN is write-only. Negativity is world readable.
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Areading314大约 6 年前
I find this to be spot on. I&#x27;ve frequently seen internal projects in companies called &quot;Data Event System&quot; or &quot;Progam Manipulator&quot; or some other nonsense. Sometimes giving a name to a project will dramatically change the way people talk about it.
Smithalicious大约 6 年前
The author&#x27;s understanding is that these pepole would be discussing the project proper if they weren&#x27;t discussing other things instead. I don&#x27;t think he&#x27;s right there. People love to talk and tend to flock to wherever conversation is happening. These people were never partciularly interested in discussing the project anyways; they were just browsing and saw an opportunity to jump into the discussion with something they do really care about, such as indentation styles or the nature of abstraction or what have you.<p>Also, the conclusion is a typical case of something that <i>sounds</i> insightful, but doesn&#x27;t make any actual sense. I don&#x27;t have even the slightest clue as to what the author is trying to say.
josepot大约 6 年前
And what happens when you tell the story and everybody just completely ignores you?<p>TBH I find that a lot more frustrating than ppl missing the point on what you were trying to say. That is exactly is what happened to me a week ago... I will keep on trying, though :-)
exebook大约 6 年前
I like it that you can change day&#x2F;night mode in the top right corner of his page. Although this should probably be the part of the browser.
nookv大约 6 年前
Well if the thing you&#x27;re trying to create is really new (let alone zero to one), then it&#x27;ll probably be difficult to explain concisely without ending up with several sentences full of &quot;trivial&quot; details.<p>I think Dan&#x27;s example about irrelevant comments and the reasons behind it are clear, but the ending about naming and telling a story does not provide a good enough solution.<p>Not sure if his intention was to offer any solutions at all but I wonder if anyone anyone has found some great techniques that guides launching &quot;completely new&quot; ideas to market. (if you do please let me know)<p>When I look at the first ride-hailing companies or other zero to one companies it seems like they started out by:<p>1. Coining a definition. 2. Telling a story. 3. Ignoring irrelevant feedback. 4. A wide spread of calculated trial and error marketing, eventually one will do the magic.<p>Is there a better way?
talkingtab大约 6 年前
I wonder to what extent this is determined by the platform? There is a kind of response that occurs on HN and every other platform I know that seems reflexive. I&#x27;ve tried at times and utterly failed to move from &quot;commenting on&quot; to &quot;doing something&quot; or &quot;further discussion&quot; and it just does not seem to work. Perhaps it is me but perhaps there is some other style or format that would provide a better vehicle. I find the concept of &quot;name it and they will come&quot; funny and interesting and would like to explore it more, but how?
ratsimihah大约 6 年前
I feel like it doesn&#x27;t apply to just software projects, but it&#x27;s a phenomenon that affects life more generally.<p>It&#x27;s so much easier to bring our focus on and talk about what we understand that we might just dismiss what&#x27;s truly important but requires effortful thinking.<p><pre><code> Universal shared experiences are easy to talk about. That includes topics like code formatting, verbosity vs magic, configuration vs convention, differences in the community cultures, scandals, tech interviews, industry gossip, macro trends and design opinions.</code></pre>
retrac98大约 6 年前
This kind of thing is very frustrating for creators.<p>It’d be cool if comments could be sorted based on their relevance to the article, post, project, or idea as a default, rather than just by time or popularity.
asadlionpk大约 6 年前
This is very accurate as of my recent experience on doing a Show HN here[1][2]. I did get very good feedback but many of the comments were just stupid. Still, posting here did help the project as the broader audience doesn&#x27;t care about a random&#x27;s HN opinion.<p>1. <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;zeroserver.io&#x2F;" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;zeroserver.io&#x2F;</a> 2. <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;news.ycombinator.com&#x2F;item?id=19254828" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;news.ycombinator.com&#x2F;item?id=19254828</a>
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lbj大约 6 年前
Its relevant, its concrete, I agree with everything he said. But mostly I just got caught up in his writing-style which is incredibly enticing. Well done man!
Animats大约 6 年前
The title of the article is the best part. Naming your new thing and owning the meaning of that name is valuable. The rest of the article is much weaker.
playeren大约 6 年前
I find the authors choice of font to be sub-optimal.
jondubois大约 6 年前
&gt;&gt; Usually, you feel like you’re creating something. But this time, it feels like you are discovering something as if it already existed.<p>I can relate to this.<p>&gt;&gt; It’s not that people didn’t like the project. You know it has tradeoffs and expected people to talk about them. But that’s not what happened.<p>&gt;&gt; Instead, the comments are largely irrelevant to your idea.<p>I can&#x27;t relate to this part. I authored a somewhat popular open source server&#x2F;framework project (over 5k stars on GitHub now) and my main problem for years was that there weren&#x27;t enough people using or commenting on it.<p>The few people who were commenting on it over the years were consistently and exclusively giving positive feedback. Someone even wrote their master degree thesis about my project&#x27;s scalability and performance. Developers started writing many clients libraries for it (there are now clients in pretty much every major language including more obscure ones such as Unity and one is currently being written for Unreal Engine).<p>For 5 years, I was constantly searching for criticisms and problems to justify why my project wasn&#x27;t more popular (so that I could fix the problems) but nobody offered any criticism. Instead people kept telling me that the project was underrated and deserved more attention.<p>It&#x27;s pretty heavily used now; it gets a lot of downloads on npm, for some reason, it just got steady linear growth and still it doesn&#x27;t get talked about much. Now I&#x27;m thinking that maybe the problem is simply that I&#x27;m not active on Twitter.
KorematsuFred大约 6 年前
As a researcher you will notice that simple and catchy title for your paper will give you far more citations than a paper that has more descriptive titles.<p>If you are publishing a paper about new way to optimize a problem, just give it a fancy name first.
qwerty456127大约 6 年前
&gt; Finally, it’s the launch day. You publish the project on GitHub. You tweet about it and submit the landing page to the popular open source news aggregators.<p>What are some popular open source news aggregators oter than HN?
novarek大约 6 年前
I&#x27;m not really seeing what you would gain with a story in this context. If your project &quot;hit the front page of a popular news aggregator&quot; I would say is because you already have the story.
keyle大约 6 年前
If you toggle the dark&#x2F;bright mode enough time, your eyes will hurt. You will come to the conclusion that only the dark mode is enjoyable and readable.<p>Sorry, if it&#x27;s true.
ilaksh大约 6 年前
I would love for my project to get on the home page and be filled up with irrelevant comments. Normally anything I try to share is completely ignored.
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jaequery大约 6 年前
am i the only one who was expecting him to say, after he had posted his project to HN, he would got no upvotes and sadly his project remained invisible to the public?<p>because getting to front page on news site like HN&#x2F;Reddit, there is some luck factor too, kind of like winning a lottery, unless you learned to gamify it.
foobarbecue大约 6 年前
This made sense until the last line. If the conclusion was &quot;focus on telling your story well so that people understand the point of your work,&quot; I would understand that. But he concludes with &quot;name it, and they will come.&quot; So... he&#x27;s saying that your product needs a good name? I don&#x27;t get it.
groundCode大约 6 年前
I’m waiting for a comment about why the author chose to Write the fictional project in JavaScript to take the top comment spot and the language wars to begin....
aarong11大约 6 年前
Your site is broken on firefox
sonnyblarney大约 6 年前
I&#x27;m not sure if those fonts work together, and those pinks are clashing as well.<p>Also, what&#x27;s with the newsletter?<p>And why is this on a <i>private</i> blog, not something truly open? I can&#x27;t even pull this using git?
hasahmed大约 6 年前
I have an issue with the formatting