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‘AWS vs. K8s’ Is the New ‘Windows vs. Linux’

202 点作者 puzza007大约 6 年前

29 条评论

jrudolph大约 6 年前
&gt; EKS (like all AWS services) is heavily integrated with AWS IAM. As most people know, IAM is the true source of AWS lock-in<p>This one thousand times over. Lots of companies have multi-cloud on their strategy but when it&#x27;s time to actually implement it they find that the cost to adopt hyperscaler #2 is just the same or even more as they spent on integrating hyperscaler #1. While Kubernetes makes workloads portable between vendors, organizational processes for &quot;boring&quot; chores like IAM, tenant provisioning and billing&#x2F;chargeback aren&#x27;t. Integration of these processes can get really expensive if you need to re-implement basic &quot;enterprise&quot; process like e.g. four-eyes-principle&#x2F;seperation of duty on role assignments for each of your cloud vendors and technologies. The IAM systems differ ever so slightly across vendors and that brings a ton of complexity.<p>The larger the company, the more likely it is that the real bottleneck to cloud adoption is on these processes, not the technology. I know it&#x27;s hard to imagine if you&#x27;re coming from a startup background where you can just take the company credit card and get an account on AWS, GCP or Azure in a second. But for developers in big co., acquiring a public cloud account may take months and forms over forms of paperwork, getting roles put into the central corporate directory etc. The investment into these (often atrocious) processes for hyperscaler #1 create a big lock-in.<p>Disclaimer: I&#x27;m a founder at Meshcloud, we build a multi-cloud platform that helps organizations consistently implement organizational processes like IAM, SSO, landing zone configurations etc. across cloud vendors and platforms.
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jpgvm大约 6 年前
In my experience AWS is the huge waste of time. I spent years on and off effectively building poor implementations of k8s to make AWS digestible to developers. If you work in &quot;IT&quot; rather than infrastructure for a large software company you might not have experienced this as internal IT is more static and easy to run on AWS&#x2F;VMWare&#x2F;whatever.<p>For me k8s finally signals moving beyond that problem and onto more interesting things as it &quot;solves&quot; that. Devs understand it &quot;well enough&quot; or can copy&#x2F;paste from another project and get going without hand holding.<p>People that don&#x27;t understand the value of the single unified API vs the hodge podge of AWS garbage (don&#x27;t even mention CloudFormation) are completely missing the point. Sure it&#x27;s no better for running your &quot;IT&quot; workloads, but that isn&#x27;t what it&#x27;s for.
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newaccoutnas大约 6 年前
I&#x27;m not really following, perhaps it&#x27;s too early here. AWS is a cloud provider, Kubernetes is container orchestration software. Here&#x27;s a crazy thing, we do K8S on AWS.
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carlsborg大约 6 年前
Inaccurate analogy. Container based compute is a very small part of the AWS ecosystem. You are missing the bigger picture. Companies are migrating to AWS for end to end managed infrastructure including directory services, databases (sql and non sql), managed ETL pipeline infrastructure, batch processes, backups, data processing and analytics at scale, high durability storage at scale, a host of mobile app services, even satellite ground station infrastructure of late. This list is a subset. And all this comes with compliance and security out of the box on the infrastructure side, and a very low support overhead on the IT side compared to if you did it yourself.<p>And finally these are not isolated services. They can be used as building blocks or layers. For example your aws lambda compute might be triggered by s3 events.
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whoisjuan大约 6 年前
I disagree. The only reason for AWS slow adoption of Kubernetes was because they couldn&#x27;t find a strong use-case within their customer base.<p>Customers knew they wanted to use it, but they really didn&#x27;t know how or why it would be better than using other type of container architecture.<p>AWS doesn&#x27;t build services for customers to toy around. Every new service is a significant investment so the data and the use cases need to be really strong.<p>AWS can almost always wait for any new technology to show strong signs of adoption before doing anything in that space. Their leadership gives them that advantage. Of course other vendors jump faster into new spaces because that&#x27;s their only chance to close the gap.<p>This happens with almost everything that is new. Another example is Blockchain.
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holografix大约 6 年前
Let&#x27;s not forget that Google wanted&#x2F;wants a piece of the IaaS&#x2F;PaaS pie and AWS has a huge first mover advantage. Someone smart at Google said:<p>&quot;Hey we have this barely usable, rocket-science level complex, container orchestration tool. How about we make it available to everyone and make sure the message is that you can deploy anywhere? Get people to look at us as an alternative instead of AWS as the default, while using a tool built by us&quot;.<p>Of course AWS was not excited about supporting a tool that might make it easier to leave AWS.
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peterwwillis大约 6 年前
It&#x27;s an imperfect analogy so we&#x27;re all going to take what we want from it. Here&#x27;s my take:<p>Windows enabled businesses to start doing business without a ton of r&amp;d. It was ubiquitous and supported and functional.<p>At the same time, with Linux you could invest all your capex into a datacenter and 1Us and build clusters for cheap and transfer all that money you would have spent on a complete system on opex to develop one. In some cases it&#x27;s just plain necessary, and has some great success stories.<p>Sadly, I&#x27;m seeing a lot of businesses throw away time and money on NIH, justifying it with restrictive budgets. They claim they have to build all their solutions from scratch, rather than pay for managed ones, because it&#x27;s cheaper. Those people often don&#x27;t understand the true cost, and are wasting both time and money, when they could be buying ready solutions to start churning out products.<p>But then again, there are businesses that literally do not need to move fast, improve their products, increase efficiency, etc. For them, spending money on tech is more a hedge against an uncertain future than a business decision. They&#x27;ll invest in anything if they think it makes them relevant.<p>So, Windows vs Linux is probably less important than the underlying motives of a given business, and whether it&#x27;s managed well. Anyway, neither of them disappeared, and there&#x27;s still good cases for both.
danw1979大约 6 年前
&gt; Interestingly, the reasons AWS put forward for why private clouds fail will be just as true for themselves: enterprises can’t manage elastic demand properly, whether it’s in their own data centre or when they’re paying someone else.<p>This really rings true with me. I feel like Amazon aren&#x27;t doing enough to tackle this problem though.... Does anyone else find the standard AWS tools for demand scaling to be like working against the grain in comparison to the rest of the platform ?
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namelosw大约 6 年前
If it is the New &#x27;Windows vs. Linux&#x27; then K8s will prevail.<p>Because it&#x27;s server-side market :P<p>But seriously there will be a better K8s eventually. For example, make K8s work as Heroku or AWS Lambda. After that, there&#x27;s no point using bare cloud for most of the players.
brtknr大约 6 年前
Drawing comparison between OpenStack and K8s is also invalid IMO... they operate at different levels of abstraction. You can use K8s with OpenStack as a cloud provider as with any other cloud provider. K8s is intended to abstract away the infrastructure that lies underneath and give you a consistent way to deploy services across different cloud providers.
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poxrud大约 6 年前
The strength of AWS does not come from any individual offering, but from the way the many services effortlessly tie together. Job queues, email&#x2F;sms services, databases, all available under the same api. Sure I could install my own open source versions of these but I&#x27;d rather spend time writing code than worrying about security patches and updates.<p>For me the biggest game changer was realizing the true power of lambda, and I&#x27;m not talking about using it as an http responding webhost as most blogs describe. But as a way of reacting to events within your infrastructure. Any AWS service that can generate an event can have a lambda function associated with. Run code on file uploads, database updates, completion of backups ...the possibilities are endless.
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srouhaewaehy大约 6 年前
Which of the two is Linux? It&#x27;s more like Windows vs Java.
paulftw大约 6 年前
Software Engineer&#x27;s fallacy: if all you have is software&#x2F;programming skills you start to look for an open source linux based solution to holding wooden boards in place, one that doesn&#x27;t vendor lock you into the iron ore.<p>With Windows vs Linux the premise was you install absolutely free software on a computer you <i></i>already own<i></i> and you end up with a superior computing and programming environment.<p>With k8s - you switched to it, now what? You have to buy server hardware, rent or build a room, run wires for electricity and broadband, build cooling, physical security, etc etc etc. You will stop paying hourly rate to Amazon, but all the upfront and recurring costs will chew into that saving and you&#x27;ll question whether it was worth the drill. Foremost, it will all take days and weeks, but with AWS it takes intolerable 20 minutes to spin up the k8s control plane (did I remember the term right?)<p>Even if you do all of that and blog about your great success, what&#x27;s your plan for when it goes viral and visitors flow in to leave accolades on your visionary move?<p>With AWS, you could just spin up more servers to deal with extra traffic. With your own datacenter, you&#x27;d have to order new servers, perhaps from Amazon&#x27;s same day delivery...
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nagyf大约 6 年前
The article forgets about Azure or GCP. I know that AWS is the most popular, but you shouldn&#x27;t forget about those 2. From the article it seems like there are AWS and nothing else, which is obviously not true. And Azure is backed by Microsoft, GCP is backed by Google, so if &quot;Bezos loses his mind&quot; there will be other alternatives besides Kubernetes.
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k__大约 6 年前
Is this some kind of DevOps joke I&#x27;m too serverless to understand?
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throw2016大约 6 年前
This illustrates the confusion around infrastructure and apps by &#x27;devops&#x27; in a rather telling way. It&#x27;s a bit like comparing Mysql or Postgresql and Aurora. Both give you databases and even some builtin replication technology but only one gives you databases plus availability and scalability out of the box.<p>Without that you would have to engineer your own distributed architecture and actually have the infrastructure in terms of bandwidth, regions, networking and data centers to scale to.<p>AWS gives you availability and scalability out of the box. Usually only a cloud provider can give you that with physical infrastructure in multiple regions, bandwidth, networking, things like floating ips, replicated storage and in the case of things like Aurora architecture and engineering. Kubernetes is a container orchestration application.
languagehacker大约 6 年前
I think this is the analogy folks who really want to hang their hat on K8s would like to force. It feels familiar, and it helps justify the tremendous personal investment of time it takes for running your own K8s cluster with high uptime. The usual adage that &quot;free software is only free if your time is of no value&quot; really does apply here.<p>Assuming you&#x27;re writing code that lives happily inside of a container, and assuming that you&#x27;re not taking advantage of anything else AWS has to offer (which is increasingly improbable), moving from ECS to EKS or GKE isn&#x27;t a big deal if you need the additional configurability that real Kubernetes offers.<p>Personally, I like running things on Fargate-style containers so I can keep things as serverless as possible.
nailer大约 6 年前
Because it&#x27;s a waste of time?<p>In my the same way I spent years of my life thinking about &#x27;the desktop&#x27; when the desktop was about to get killed by mobile, arguing about MicroVMs vs containers is useless: they&#x27;re just somewhere to run functions.
tanilama大约 6 年前
K8s is not an AWS comparison, at least not a proper one.<p>K8s is software, but AWS is software + hardware. Your K8s cluster likely would still be hosted on AWS&#x2F;Azure&#x2F;GCP.<p>K8s lives upon the cloud providers, they are not competitors.
trpc大约 6 年前
while I don&#x27;t really understand how ‘AWS vs. K8s’ Is related to ‘Windows vs. Linux’, I guess k8s is a threat to AWS primarily when it comes to EC2 just like it is a threat to commercial linux distros since it makes the underlying VM and host OS totally temporary and replaceable, but what can k8s do to AWS SaaSes (e.g. RDS, SNS, etc...)? almost nothing (even though it gives you the opportunity to migrate from one SaaS to another while still having availability using the help of istio for instance), you can&#x27;t really escape the lock-in
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kerng大约 6 年前
The article forgets to define the terms its using, I think the author means Amazons EKS service vs. running your own k8s on AWS VMs - not sure.<p>Could also be that they compare AWS vs. GCP, but I&#x27;d dont think so.
Blackstone4大约 6 年前
In terms of the comparison AWS vs. K8... are we not talking a much larger stack to replace AWS? i.e. VMware&#x2F;OpenStack + K8 + Docker...Maybe this is what the author was implying?
tnolet大约 6 年前
I have container orchestration and management problem: use K8S.<p>I have the need to do business using computers: use AWS.
badsavage大约 6 年前
&quot;wasting their lives compiling Linux in their spare time&quot; stopped reading there
mcqueenjordan大约 6 年前
Sorry, not following the logic here either. Not even close. It&#x27;s a blog with ads from an author that is big into Docker. It&#x27;s not ad hominem; it&#x27;s just cui bono.<p>The author put scare quotes around the &quot;real workloads&quot; AWS can handle&#x2F;solve for. I&#x27;m not sure the author really has the experience to know what real big workloads look like. OpenBet? Barclays? Doesn&#x27;t sound like a background in large scale technical problems that gets to sneer at the workload sizes of others.<p>I&#x27;ll admit my biases -- I used to work at AWS and I&#x27;m a happy customer. But if you don&#x27;t understand it or don&#x27;t have the appropriate technical needs for that level of infrastructure, don&#x27;t try to draw such a poor analogy and make really weird claims.<p>&gt; There are limits on all sorts of resources that help define what you can and can’t achieve.<p>Huh? Yeah, of course... Certain tools have certain purposes, built to solve specific problems. Kind of like the UNIX philosophy. Do one thing and do it well. You know about the UNIX philosophy, right? Limits? Everything has limits.<p>&gt; In the same way, some orgs get to the point where they could see benefits from building their own data centres again. Think Facebook, or for a full switcher, Dropbox. (We’ll get back to this).<p>You should build your own data center if it is <i>strategically advantageous</i> for your company to be in the data center business. I&#x27;d argue that Facebook is in the data center business mostly for historical and timing reasons, and that for Dropbox, it actually might be a strategic advantage because they&#x27;re basically, uh, an <i>infrastructure company.</i><p>&gt; Which brings us to AWS’s relationship with Kubernetes. It’s no secret that AWS doesn’t see the point of it.<p>Actually, I do think it&#x27;s a secret. It must be your little secret to yourself, though, because I don&#x27;t think anyone else thinks this. Could it just be that building a product takes time and people?<p>&gt; IAM is the true source of AWS lock-in (and Lambda is the lock-in technology par excellence. You can’t move a server if there are none you can see).<p>Have you ever even built anything on cloud infrastructure? Doesn&#x27;t seem like it from your writing. Lock-in is a really uncharitable synonym for &quot;solves a difficult problem well.&quot;<p>Also, Lambda is about the easiest thing to migrate I can think of. Its surface area that your code touches is remarkably small, by design. If anything, it&#x27;s fairly clear there were many opportunities for Lambda to make product decisions that could&#x27;ve really locked customers in -- which they elected not to take.<p>(Typed on a phone, forgive typos.)
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Stranger43大约 6 年前
It probably more like windows vs Unix(tm) whit something else eventually emerging as the go to for pragmatic practioners
CyanLite4大约 6 年前
AWS will be around in 5 years. It has an established business model making billions of dollars per year.<p>K8s won’t be around in 5 years. It’s peaking towards the top of the hype cycle. If you’re wondering about cloud lock-in, then you don’t get the power of the cloud.
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arthry大约 6 年前
I think ECS vs K8s would be a more proper title.
StreamBright大约 6 年前
Anybody who thinks that Kubernetes can be compared to AWS has absolutely no idea what these things are.
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