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Where Are All The Internet Sales Guys? (CarWoo YC S09)

58 点作者 tommy_mcclung超过 14 年前

18 条评论

jayp超过 14 年前
Many reasons you got only luke warm response:<p>(1) Comments were disabled in the original post (for reference, see original post here: <a href="http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1945582." rel="nofollow">http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1945582.</a>) Disabling comments for job posts is not ideal in an open community. My hypothesis is that it hurts more than benefits YC companies. Pile on the fact that you're trying to hire for a non-traditional role.<p>(2) You're trying to hire for your core value-add. This is what founders should be owning. If your founding team can't do this, look to add a co-founder, not an employee. If your founder's aren't looking to get your customer base to a critical mass, and thus make the marketplace more favorable to both customers and dealers, what are they doing?<p>(3) A dangerous attitude. Your voice in both these posts lacks empathy. Your original post is highly presumptuous. Your follow-on blog post doesn't clarify things much further, and fails to provide concrete motivation/reasonings to apply.<p>I hope these criticisms help.
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il超过 14 年前
It's called affiliate marketing, and thousands of people do exactly this for a living full time. All of the affiliate marketers who are any good work for themselves driving traffic to others for commission on every lead or sale, or creating their own products.<p>The people who are good at driving traffic are driven, entrepreneurial, and have the hacker mindset. Of course they would prefer working for themselves without an upper bound on their earning potential.<p>The fact is that, if you're good at driving traffic, there are still tremendous opportunities for you out there, and you can earn much, much more than any salary could pay.<p>I actually emailed you with some advice about hiring someone like this based on my experience in the industry, I'll repost it here:<p><i>Ranking experience by preference, I would most prefer a candidate with affiliate marketing experience, next someone who managed SEM/media buys for a large performance advertiser, and finally someone with agency experience. Stay away from people who have only done branding, they will eat your money. Also, I know you're looking for a hacker, but I think the most important factor in running internet marketing campaigns is knowing how to sell. Identifying your target market and what their pain points, wants, and desires are is paramount. Optimizing, split testing, etc is important but secondary compared to marketing fundamentals. Finally, watch out for "social media experts". Value applicants based on how many conversions they can bring, and how much they can spend effectively, not on how much they can engage in conversations. Until you can pay your vendors in Twitter followers, all that matters is getting quality traffic and sales.</i><p>I think the fundamental issue is that you're framing this as a job for hackers. For whatever reason, most hackers have a distaste for marketing, and would probably be loath to apply for a marketing-type job. They would rather be building things and not worrying about things like positioning or segmentation.
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AmericanOP超过 14 年前
As an internet sales guy, I would preface this by saying most startups should put more of their marketing budget into improving the product experience. I don't think you're communicating your benefits to me the right way in your tagline, your CG video feels like a commercial and shouldn't dominate your splash page (splash tutorial videos are a cop-out and turn off users), I wasn't nearly invested in your site to go through the email signup barrier, and your car selection process isn't fun and provides very little feedback (almost useless if I don't know exactly what I want). Your pricing model turns me off- the only real difference I can see from the descriptors is that you contact 1-3 more dealers. Maybe have one option be fixed pris and the other a % of the savings on MSRP?<p>Second, I take Bart to work every day. I was pissed I got a yellow envelope on my car on labor day (free parking day), pissed when I complained to Bart employees about getting a parking ticket and they had no idea what I was talking about, and pissed when I finally opened the envelope and saw "This is a PR stunt by CarWoo, let us find your next car and we'll pay your next parking ticket." Now, because I'm in the industry and know who you are I had a laugh about it, and because I'm in PR I get it, but you caused me too much inconvenience for me to "like" the brand, and you failed to communicate your benefits so I didn't even bother going to your site even though I am currently in the market for a car. Okay, I "get" the internet, hopefully you got some buzz, but is this what you mean by hack-centric marketing? Was it so successful you want to hire someone to do this ad infinitum?<p>I don't really think PR is something you can usefully hack as an outsider, especially if your market positioning and messaging is weak. The reason why you can't find an Internet Sales Guy like you can a Technical Product Building Guy is because you're really talking about successfully coordinating your channel strategy, marketing strategy, PR strategy, SEM/SEO, everything that goes into customer acquisition. You need to be doing these things better, but you're not going to find someone to magically do it for you unless your paying for experts.
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patio11超过 14 年前
Rand at SEOMoz wants to hire this guy. Every startup in the Valley wants to hire this guy. Many traditional software companies <i>desperately</i> want to hire this guy. I get an email at least once a week asking for an introduction to this guy.<p>I know this guy.<p>He's self-taught, freakishly intelligent, and has long-since learned that he can either come in at nine, put up with rules which stifle his effectiveness, and make pennies of the value he drives, or he can run his own business, answer for his results only, and earn appreciable percentages of the value he drives. And he drives a lot of value indeed. ($200k is too low.)<p>If you want to work with this guy, you want him as a cofounder. Fair warning: so does everybody else, and he's kind of "meh" on the idea.<p>Of interest to everybody else: <i>you want to be this guy</i>. It is a body of skill which can be learned, and it will only take a few years and a lot of experimentation. And after you do that, the world is your oyster.
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joshklein超过 14 年前
No one with the actual skills you're interested in would be interested in the job you've described. We business hackers want to be involved in customer development, product-market fit, and shaping strategy for going to market.<p>Anyone interested in a job specifically defined as "driving a lot of traffic right now" is going to be an affiliate marketing / black hat seo / marketing douche who will not add value to your business.<p>This is like a "business guy" founder posting a job to HN asking a programmer to implement his tech spec. I think when you post a job to HN for business folks, you need to demonstrate a little more respect for what a talented candidate could bring to your company.<p>OR... you're looking in the wrong place; go post in an affiliate marketing forum.
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nhashem超过 14 年前
To use a baseball analogy, you're looking for a catcher that hits .300 and 30 HR. Catcher is one of the most defensively demanding positions in baseball. Finding a player with all those defensive tools AND that can hit at an All-Star level is incredibly rare, which is why players like Joe Mauer easily get $100MM contracts.<p>But as other people indicated, you don't need Joe Mauer on your team. You really just need to him to show up for a few weeks, teach you some basics and give you some tips, and you can do the actual heavy lifting yourself. 20% of this stuff is figuring out concepts like how you would build an effective SEM bidding system and determine whether it's working, the 80% is actually executing (ie. figuring out the bidding algorithm).<p>TLDR; Find a contractor, pay him enough per hour to make it worth his while, profit.
petercooper超过 14 年前
<i>I have a theory that most people that fit the requirements of a “Customer Acquisition Hacker” are likely trying to use this skill to their own advantage and not selling it to a company as an employee.</i><p>I totally agree. The talents mentioned in the article are right down my alley, but I've been busy using those skills to get more subscribers and traffic to my <i>own</i> gigs. This is true for others I know who have similar skillsets (Amy Hoy stands out as a prolific example here, to me).<p>Doing these things full-time for other people would negate most of the reasons I do them already - like extremely flexible hours, the ability to work on exactly what I want, etc. Not only that, but it's taken &#62;10 years of hard slog to feel confident about my abilities. It would take a significant increase in other forms of compensation (money, prestige, etc.) for me to do this full-time for someone else. (All that said, if a reputable company has $150k base plus options to invest, I'm listening ;-))
rwhitman超过 14 年前
I just got off a gig working for someone who is like the king of customer acquisition. <i>Very</i> successful at it. Very difficult to work with. And this guy is only in his job because he was acquired in a buyout of his startup.<p>From what I've gathered, if you want someone in this role they need to get paid a <i>LOT</i> of money. If they are good they could end up making more in commission than all your engineers' salaries combined so you need to be prepared for that...
rarrrrrr超过 14 年前
They are busy making money! My conclusion was that it was easier to become such a person, rather than try to find and hire one. Or, better yet, change the product to better fit with the market, making the entire process easier.
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vaksel超过 14 年前
your problem was picking the wrong title for the position...noone knows what you mean by a user acquisition hacker. Should have called it VP of Business Development or VP of Marketing.<p>It really sounds like a position for a business guy, not a hacker guy. The fact that you require hacking skills probably turned away anyone who could do what you actually needed.
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aberman超过 14 年前
Great post, and so true.<p>Unfortunately, "user acquisition hackers" are basically priceless. A hacker that builds great product is hard enough to find, a hacker that BUILDS TRACTION?! Holy God would that be amazing.
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alain94040超过 14 年前
Put a salary figure. Right now, you sound like you want an amazing performer, but are not willing to pay much (despite the claim of being well funded)
coryl超过 14 年前
I'm in general agreement with everyone else, internet marketing is incredibly in demand because unlike all other hires, it directly drives revenues. So not only do you have to compete against other companies, but lucrative affiliate marketing pulls in the best.
ivankirigin超过 14 年前
I think another name for what you're looking for is Growth Hacker <a href="http://startup-marketing.com/where-are-all-the-growth-hackers/" rel="nofollow">http://startup-marketing.com/where-are-all-the-growth-hacker...</a><p>I spend a fair amount of my time doing this - but really another side of this is analytics and testing / experimentation systems. It isn't all about the campaigns.<p>I should also mention that my current role wasn't the result of a post but just something everyone agreed I should do.
mikeryan超过 14 年前
So this sounds like one of those newer types of positions that will start becoming more common. However I doubt that a tone of people have actual experience at this.<p>However I bet there are a ton of brilliant young hackers who could learn to do this and would see it as a sharp career move. Perhaps going after someone like this would make more sense?
jscore超过 14 年前
So basically you want a guy who knows how to make money to work for you? Am I missing something?
johnnywon超过 14 年前
I work at a big ad agency (400+ people) in BOS doing digital marketing and our team is asked to do exactly what your asking and I can tell you it's really really tough to find these people to do this sort of work. I mean anyone who has a site is looking for someone who can conjure up traffic &#38; eyeballs for cheap, it's the holy grail of all advertising and customer acquisition based businesses.<p>As you probably know, there is a massive talent shortage at the cutting edge of digital marketing and driving traffic. There are tons of people in digital marketing but the vast majority of them are thinking about old ideas and the way things have been done in the past; all approaches that are contrary to any cutting edge startup.<p>So it kind of turns out that there are a ton of old ideas to growing traffic and rarely an original approach. This makes finding people a nightmare since with large or med budgets, millions of people have experience spending millions of dollars but only a handful have had any success designing high traffic customer acquisition programs at low to no cost.<p>I would guess a large part of this is due to the fact that everything is so new and experimental. Minting social media traffic into conversions &#38; sales can be quite expensive and profitable on a case by case basis. Buying search keywords can work (it worked for Mint) but take an aggressive customer acquisition model at cost. Even targeted ad exchanges &#38; DSPs bring guaranteed visibility but a certain gamble in overhead costs &#38; trades. Affiliate programs have been around for years but it doesn't work across all verticals (tough to sell physical things, easy to get new sign ups). SEOs are barely worth mentioning since so much of it is now obvious.<p>In the big ad agency world, there are a lot of these older ideas being thrown around constantly but it's very seldom we or anyone sees a new or original theory to drive traffic to a particular project or new site. We're faced with the same problem startups are faced and it seems evident that the problem will continue. Ideas that generate incredible amounts of traffic (the Old Spice campaign) seem improbable before campaigns begin and blatantly obvious in retrospect. Additionally, past ideas to drive traffic applied to current projects have no guarantee that they will wildly inspire traffic in the future. It's quite rare to find an individual that has mastered the understanding of a few Internet ecosystems (like how travel websites churn traffic or eyeballs for moons at online retail) and simultaneously understand emerging marketing tactics to grow reach.<p>Hackers are in a weirdly challenging position because designing business systems often seems foreign to cutting brilliant code. Startups like Gilt &#38; Groupon have no special approach to code but brilliant business systems and incredible customer growth curves since they inspire customers to share experiences for the sake of their own benefit. There is probably a lot more that could be said about these biz guys who can design brilliant customer acquisition systems but I would bet you probably find them in three categories: 1. they've already built something brilliant that they have a few VCs on speed dial for their next big idea, 2. they're brewing something already as an entrepreneur and lack desire for a job or 3. they're ignorant of their own brilliance and need a Steve Jobs to John Sculley speech to hop on board.<p>Last prediction: as the number of startup engineers &#38; Y-comb type teams proliferate this talent shortage will get crazy. Perhaps PG will start asking for Google News links for "system to your advantage" examples.
entrepreneurial超过 14 年前
I'm right here!