The MacBook keyboard fiasco is way worse than Apple thinks

This was previously discussed at: <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;news.ycombinator.com&#x2F;item?id=19547352" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;news.ycombinator.com&#x2F;item?id=19547352</a>

This issue (and to be fair, the removal of the escape key (I&#x27;m a vim user)) have absolutely kept me from upgrading.<p>I have a 2018 macbook (from work). I love how fast it is, and the touchID built in. Almost everything else is a regression:<p>- No USB ports<p>- No magsafe connector<p>- Useless touchbar (for me anyway). Actually worse than useless as it disrupts my previous workflows.<p>- Terrible keyboard even when working to spec.<p>It&#x27;s a shame. I still have my 2009 MBP and mid-2013 rMBP and had already budgeted ~$3000 every 4-5 years for a brand new machine. As my 2013 is starting to show it&#x27;s age I really have no idea what I&#x27;d get, but there&#x27;s no fucking way I give Apple $3000 for a computer I know I don&#x27;t like.<p>Wish Lenovo could match up with form factor and screen quality.

I had a MBP in 2017, and then—unsurprisingly—the keyboard began to have issues. I didn&#x27;t even bother asking Apple for a fix; I knew the new keyboard would have issues as well.<p>Instead, I got myself a reliable upper-tier ThinkPad for 2&#x2F;3rds the price of a MBP (and superior hardware), installed GNU&#x2F;Linux on it, and now I&#x27;m living happily ever after.<p>I don&#x27;t know if I could go back to a MBP after this, honestly. The ThinkPad is spill-proof, sturdy, has an _excellent_ keyboard, and is pretty much the anti-MBP in every way. And it&#x27;s been a dream.<p>This keyboard issue _is_ way worse than Apple thinks. It caused longtime customers (myself included) to entertain the thought of leaving the Apple ecosystem. And speaking for myself, I haven&#x27;t looked back.

When you DO a decide to give it to Apple for a week to fix the problem, do NOT rely on TimeMachine as a backup<p>Mine came back with a new Logic Board, with new SSD, and would not recognize my TM backups at all. (I have 2 separate TM disks)<p>I decided to rebuild from scratch, and pull down most files from Dropbox, but my Github code will get reloaded as needed, and apps installed when I miss them<p>Who has time for another 2 days of downtime trying to work through why the TimeMachine backup was “empty” (it still takes 3TB of disk space)?<p>Not really happy with Apple at the moment

Personal anecdote, but Apple could have made an extra $2-3000 off me in the last few years if there was a MBP with a good keyboard. My 2014 MBP still works well, but I definitely would have succumbed to the temptation of new gear if I wasn&#x27;t so worried about the keyboards.

Top comment there has a 5 year old Macbook he&#x27;s afraid to replace. My MBP is a late 2011 model, and I&#x27;m not sure what to buy when it fails. I&#x27;m really not happy with Apple at the moment.<p>I&#x27;ll probably get a Thinkpad and put Linux on it, but I&#x27;m not convinced any Linux is ever going to be quite as pleasant an experience as OS X used to be.

&gt; Is Apple going to accept that they’re currently alienating and undermining decades of goodwill by shipping broken computers in mass quantities?<p>That&#x27;s exactly what they&#x27;ve been doing for 10 years. iPhone 6 battery-gate. 6-Plus bending in half when you sit with it in your pocket. The 2016 butterfly keyboard, the one with 58 screws holding it in. Firmware that slows your phone for seemingly no reason. Home button&#x27;s that stop working and a virtual one to replace it. Screens that won&#x27;t pull down anymore unless they do it by themselves. And getting them to admit a problem exists has ALWAYS been pulling teeth. Lets face it, you signed up for this. All signs for the last 10 years have pointed to a really nice OS with an overpriced, over-rated machine underneath it. Don&#x27;t get me wrong, the inside of an Apple product is like electronic-poetry, but when something is poorly designed no amount of build quality will make something last.<p>You got taken. You should have known this was going to happen because they did it to you last year. And the year before. And the year before. Stop whining about your $3k laptop already. You could have bought 6x i7 powered Dells for the price you paid on one Apple. You asked for this.

A bit off topic, but how do Macbook users perceive typing on their keyboards relative to more business-class laptops? Coming from an older Thinkpad, I genuinely have problems when I type on a friend&#x27;s 2018 Macbook. There&#x27;s almost no key depth.

I thought I would hate the new MBPs and it kept me from upgrading for a while. But after making the switch last year, I&#x27;m pretty much fully onboard.<p>The USB-C ports are great, and I am looking forward to the future where old-school USB ports are dead and everything is USB-C. There&#x27;s the occasional frustration with not having all cables be equal (you could have a USB-C to USB-C cable that transfers power, slow data, or Thunderbolt-3 data… it&#x27;s unintuitive).<p>The lack of ESC-key doesn&#x27;t bother me as much as I thought either. I finally made the switch and remapped caps lock to escape and will never look back. I use BetterTouchTool to get the ideal touchbar with shortcuts to my 5 most used functions, a Spotify player and a couple system controls. It&#x27;s perfect, customized to my liking, and beat the previous FN-key setup I had. TouchID rocks. I never see Apple&#x27;s crap TouchBar implementation.<p>I have been having the keyboard issues, usually it materializes in the form of double impressions of keys I type. I&#x27;ll end up with `ee` instead of `e`, and a couple other letters like that. Doesn&#x27;t seem to be happening as much as it used to (after a &quot;top case&quot; replacement for an unrelated TouchBar issues).

I just can’t believe it. I’ve been holding on to my 2013 MBP and iPhone SE for years, ready to buy, waiting for the time when Apple comes to its senses, but it looks like there’s no upgrade path in sight and never will be.

I know this article highlights the problems with 2018+ keywords, but even my 2016 Macbook, which is one of the first with the butterfly mechanisms, has given me plenty of problems: keys sticking, keys not pressing without a tremendous amount of force, double printing characters, etc.<p>It is frustrating because I love macOS, but having keyboard problems makes me reluctant to get another Macbook in the future.

I wonder what the latency of low quality products is? Apple wouldn&#x27;t be the first company to go through this - I can think of car and clothing manufacturers which were known for quality only to abuse their reputation and eventually lose sales, sometimes catastrophically. I wonder if there&#x27;s some B-school stats or case studies which show how long customers are willing to give a business the benefit of the doubt and continue to buy products based on a company&#x27;s old reputation before their new reputation takes over and sales drop?

Yep. I have a 2016 MacBook Pro that&#x27;s had two top case replacements for bad keys. It&#x27;s been a year since the last one, and that&#x27;s because I am EXTREMELY careful with this one specifically around heat.<p>I strongly believe that heat under the keys is the cause, and not dust. I never, ever let the CPU temp spike (using iStat menus to show the current temp and disabling Turbo Boost).<p>I also never charge an external device like a phone or iPad using the USB-C ports to avoid creating heat.<p>Lastly, this computer never, ever sits on any surface that isn&#x27;t solid. No bed, no couch, no lap. I use a tray or something similar if it&#x27;s not on a desk.<p>If you heat the computer to the point that you feel that trademark snapping sound in the membranes of the keys, you are screwed. You might as well make the appointment right then since your keys will fail soon.<p>I might just fail this one on purpose because I could use a new battery which you get with the keyboard switch. Oh, and my camera no longer works for some reason.

I have a 2018 MBP 15&quot; w&#x2F;Touchbar at work. I have not had any issues but I use the internal keyboard only as a last resort.<p>I really hate the internal keyboard, and I hate the touchbar.<p>For my personal use I went and bought a Surface Pro at a way lower price than a MBP and have been happy with that because I hate these MBP Touchbar keyboards so much.<p>It blows my mind that the &quot;Type cover&quot; on the Surface Pro has more travel and feels better than the MBP keyboard. If I was developing on it a lot I don&#x27;t know if I&#x27;d be that happy with windows but I mostly don&#x27;t do development on it and for that windows &amp; OSX are basically a wash for me. I do some hack type stuff with it, music stuff, photo&#x2F;video, etc.. both OSes work fine for me with a slight edge to windows occasionally for some of the hacking projects.

I&#x27;m wondering if this is going to royally bite them in the ass. I have a Gen 2 keyboard in a 2017 13 MBP that needed an Apple Store visit to remedy the spacebar under warranty.<p>$700 to replace it out of warranty will mean I relegate it to a desk and NEVER BUY ANOTHER APPLE COMPUTER AGAIN.<p>Because someone, somewhere in their vast organization needs to find a solution where a stuck key doesn&#x27;t require brain surgery to replace the keyboard, top plate, and battery.<p>I was already sore at the dongle requirements, but willing to overlook in light of the dozen or so OTHER dongles they&#x27;ve made me buy over the years. The subtle differences in OSX that sold really expensive hardware are no longer there.<p>(And don&#x27;t get me started on the walled garden permanent phone lease they&#x27;re easing us into.)

The keyboard of my sister&#x27;s brandnew mbp is literally falling apart. She uses a cheap bluetooth keyboard she puts on top of the mbp&#x27;s keyboard. She still claims Apple makes the best notebooks. I&#x27;m totally enthralled by how Apple keeps their users locked in in their parallel universe and pay the premium price.

I&#x27;ve never owned a MacBook but I&#x27;ve been thinking of buying one over the last year. This single issue has prevented me from making the purchase. I can&#x27;t help but think how upset I would be if I bought a MacBook and they improved the keyboard several months later.

I have a 2016 MBP that’s had one keyboard replacement, I am living with the stuttering that I now have in the replacement. I have refused to upgrade and will continue to do so until they fix this (and the T2 issues, and the audio issues, and the overheating issues).

The Macbook keyboard problems only have three possible endings:<p>1) Apple is able to be evasive and dishonest until it goes away, probably days after they cancel the free keyboard replacement program and people buy new computers instead of paying Apple $795 to fix Apple&#x27;s mistake once or twice a year<p>2) Apple is able to permanently fix it retroactively, but like the trashcan Mac Pro it seems they have painted themselves in to a corner where they cannot proceed and cannot move quickly either<p>3) Apple offers to replace the affected laptops when they do have an alternative, this is really the best case scenario except 4th gen is coming and if it doesn&#x27;t fix the issue then it&#x27;s a long wait to 5th...<p>Even if they fix it on the next iteration I don&#x27;t think they would seriously entertain number three without substantial legal action demanding they do the right thing, affected people should consider the $0 resale value on these turds when they&#x27;re a bit older and get rid of these devices now instead of wait for a $100 settlement in 8 years.<p>One thing that&#x27;s quite funny to see is nobody <i>else</i> is able to fix their design flaw either because of how hostile they made the machines to opening up and repairing things.

My rant about the state of Apple: <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;github.com&#x2F;geophile&#x2F;reality-distortion-field" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;github.com&#x2F;geophile&#x2F;reality-distortion-field</a>

Its way worse than Apple <i>admits</i>. Its impossible to believe that they don&#x27;t actually have a grasp on the scope of the problem; just because they&#x27;re not coming out in a press release and saying &quot;yeah failure rates are above 30%, we fukd up, sorry team&quot;

This.<p>I have one with a broken keyboard but Apple needs to keep it for at least a week to repair.<p>Thats a complete non-starter. I dont have backup laptops hanging around to use.

Had issues issue with the second to latest MBP keys sticking. Got the lates MBP when it was released and keyboard has been flawless since. But imagine there are a lot of scenarios for other people were that could not be the case.

As much as it pains me to say this, Apple is having much trouble juggling their endeavors. Apple&#x27;s website is usually pixel perfect, but look at <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.apple.com&#x2F;mac-pro&#x2F;index1.html" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.apple.com&#x2F;mac-pro&#x2F;index1.html</a> and you&#x27;ll see it isn&#x27;t even responsive. Viewed on their own iOS devices renders the desktop nav. No one at Apple even goes to their own flagship desktop marketing page anymore.

Maybe Apple doesn&#x27;t really care that much about the Mac. The iPhone ate the company. They&#x27;re a mobile phone and services company now. Macs are an afterthought.

Items I keep on my nightstand:<p>Phone and charger<p>Reading glasses<p>Can of compressed air

I don&#x27;t get how people don&#x27;t consider the power cords apple gives also a fiasco. I&#x27;ve literally never seen one last more than a year before the outside rubber breaks. Shortly after the internal wires. Meanwhile I&#x27;ve had the same power adapter for my x220 for nearly a decade now and its just fine, no signs of any insulation breaking what so ever.

It&#x27;s not a huge problem if you consider the Mac an expendable part of the eco system, as Apple does.

I can live with the new Macbook keyboard, missing function keys and a malfunctioning key only because I always use external Apple keyboard.<p>The only time I use Macbook keyboard is at cafes or meetups. After 2 years I still don&#x27;t like and I haven&#x27;t find a single good use for the touchbar.

I was a mac laptop user. I’ve now switched to an imac pro and ipad pro, and am much happier for it. My mad has ports and I can use my own keyboard. The ipad is much nicer for work around the house away from my desk.<p>(Mac mini + the new ipad air would probably work as well for many use cases while being cheaper)<p>The laptops are a huge error though. They’re the most popular type of mac, and they’re all flawed. My macbook air from 2011 still runs perfectly. I couldn&#x27;t confidently tell someone their butterfly keyboard model would last that long, and desktop + ipad is a more expensive, niche combo. Not everyone can do that. Really bad for the ecosystem in the long run.

I am very careful with my gear and one of the only people I know who don&#x27;t fray their lightning cables. So far my 2015 MacBook keyboard is fine, but I am holding on to my 2012 MacBook Pro for dear life. When work issued me a new computer, I asked them for a 2018 Mac Mini rather than a disposable MacBook Pro.<p>I have also accelerated my Linux migration contingency planning. If I were to get a laptop now, it would be one of the System76 Linux models.<p>Apple will eventually have to make it right, if nothing else the class-action lawsuits will ensure that, but their complacency and bad faith has already caused irreparable damage to the brand.

Could the link be edited to not jump to the #comments anchor in the article?

&gt; Apple keep insisting that only a “small number of customers have problems” with the MacBook keyboards. That’s bollocks. This is a huge issue, it’s getting worse not better, and Apple is missing the forest for the trees.<p>No, Apple knows exactly how bad it is. They <i>always</i>[0] say &quot;a small number of ...&quot; for every[0] issue they have. They&#x27;re just stubborn. They&#x27;ll fix a few as they are brought in and they&#x27;ll continue iterating on this design and letting new buyers beta test it.<p>[0] Never use a definitive.

I can&#x27;t believe that the 2018 membrane version didn&#x27;t fix the issue. That was my last hope. Time to look for a Thinkpad alternative. Which Linux should I install? Ubuntu?

I would&#x27;ve definitely gotten a Macbook Pro if the keyboard wasn&#x27;t so terrible. Not only the reliability problem, but the flat keys. Just not good for programming.

1) Bring Matias Tactile Pro keyboard from home.<p>2) Realize that the MBP <i>only</i> has USB-C ports.<p>3) Buy or requisition a USB-C combo dongle (i.e., a computer wart).<p>4) Plug keyboard into computer wart, plug computer wart into laptop.<p>5) Fixed!<p>Thanks, Apple!

Even if the keyboards weren&#x27;t notoriously unreliable, I would still hate how they feel to use. My $15 wireless iPad keyboard feels better to use than my MacBook&#x27;s.<p>And that&#x27;s on top of all the other issues that have been discussed. At this point, the only thing holding me back from switching to a Thinkpad is iOS&#x2F;macOS development. Maybe I should just get a Thinkpad and a Mac Mini. It wouldn&#x27;t even cost that much more than a MacBook Pro..

There’s a problem with DHH’s survey, which is that nobody whose keyboards are working cares to seek out and vote in it.<p>Anecdata of course, but my 20 person engineering team has been using MBPs with the new keyboards for the last three years (various models), and so far no one has had a keyboard problem.<p>I’ve got a 2018 at home which I hammer pretty hard every day and no issues either.<p>It’s not a popular opinion on HN but I actually like how the keyboard feels.<p>So I’m not sure the despair is as widespread as it seems on HN. That said it does still seem like the failure rate is unreasonable, and I can easily see Apple losing the class action suits. More than that, this is a PR nightmare, and I’m not sure their “silent treatment” culture is an effective way to handle it.

I gave up on apple last year. I did not buy one for my personal work when I needed a computer. I use an Hp Spectre and ubuntu now. I miss mac os x. Ubuntu sucks majorly sometimes. I may turn my computer into a hackintosh, though I see apple&#x27;s recent decision to become a &quot;media&quot; company indicative of the reality that apple may soon be going the way of the dinosaur.

Absolutely true. I started migrating to Linux when I had to bring an external keyboard all the time. The keyboard sucks, extremely. I loved reading on iBooks, but I even coded its alternative with the identical theme in Emacs. I hate &quot;that&quot; keyboard so much. It&#x27;s extremely embarrassing.

+1<p>Just confirming the survey which is great, I did exactly like in the article. I primarily use my 2017 MBP at work&#x2F;home where I have keyboards, so haven&#x27;t been willing to lose the laptop for 2 weeks to be replaced with a keyboard that is reported to have the same faults.<p>As such, I actively discourage anyone I know thinking about it from buying an apple laptop.

I&#x27;m one of those &quot;just plug in a keyboard&quot; folks. Took it to an Apple Store and they couldn&#x27;t fix it. We have AppleCare and I will send it in, but its such a pain since I have to blank the drive before sending. I guess I will put my stuff on a Mac Mini until it gets back.<p>Not buying a new Mac until they get this actually fixed.

I bought the latest version of the MBP with the &#x27;fixed&#x27; keyboard last year September. I have sold it 2 months later because one of the keys didn&#x27;t work well anymore, I had to push that key hard for it to respond. It is amazing that Apple seem to completely ignore all the issues with the new MBP..

I miss the escape key as well, here’s one way I addressed it: using BTT I added another button to the Touch Bar. This was a second escape key, placed right next to the original. Now the first two inches from the left are one big escape key, making it easier to touch-type.

I just came across this and it sums up what many of us think about Apple.<p><a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.youtube.com&#x2F;watch?v=a3iXEMtmITw" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.youtube.com&#x2F;watch?v=a3iXEMtmITw</a><p>I wish they did better for us customers.

2011 MBA here. Waiting to buy a new MBP,... but not on your nelly with that keyboard, touchbar, and lack of ram on the smaller model.<p>Also budgeted for one. I&#x27;ve also become very cautious over Apple, which is a shame.

&gt; a staggering 30% are dealing with keyboard issues right now!<p>I&#x27;m guessing this is the effect of hardware monoculture ? If your single-source provider has an issue, there&#x27;s not much you can do.

The macbook keyboard sucks. I have 2018 Macbook pro and i believe 5-9 keys have dust inside them and they behave erratically.

Are Hackintoshes still a thing? I remember building one with a friend in the mid oughts (2005 maybe?).

The keyboard and the case flex are bad. I like having one USB-C connector for everything.

Hey how often do y’all clean your computers?<p>Like alcohol wipe + vacuum out the keyboard?

I recently bought a 2018 MacBook Air. I don’t know if this revision has a different keyboard than the one in question, or what, but I find it totally fine to type on. Prior to this, I was using 1013-2015 era laptops; I know these came before the problematic keyboards and I don’t really find the newer or the older ones worse in any real way.<p>However, that’s just speaking of what they’re like when they work. The failure rate is a major, major problem and they are not doing enough about it, at all.