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Nassim Talebs case against Nate Silver is bad math

168 点作者 sandwall大约 6 年前

26 条评论

andrewla大约 6 年前
As I understand it, the feud in its current form started from a tweet from Dinesh D&#x27;Souza [1] in which he interpreted Nate Silver&#x27;s statement that &quot;Dems, GOP winning House are &#x27;both extremely possible&#x27;&quot; to mean that they had gone from an 80% chance of winning to a 50% chance.<p>Taleb inexplicably chose this as the hill to die on [2] and wrote a lengthy and technical paper to refute, and replied (on the [2] thread) &quot;When someone says are event and its opposite are extremely possible I infer either 1) 50&#x2F;50 or 2) the predictor is shamelessly hedging, in other words, BS.&quot;<p>I&#x27;ve often found Taleb&#x27;s ideas to be profound and interesting, and unfortunately offset by his arrogance and occasionally cryptic pronouncements and colorful colloquial &quot;Brooklyn-ese&quot; intentional misspellings of words (like &quot;gabish&quot; for &quot;capisce&quot;). But in this case I&#x27;m having trouble following what his criticism even is -- forecasts, especially probability forecasts, are hard, and evaluating them is hard -- the dimensions of skill vs. calibration vs. precision are hard to evaluate, and Nate Silver does a fairly good job of describing the tension.<p>[1] <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;twitter.com&#x2F;DineshDSouza&#x2F;status&#x2F;1059147114826162177" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;twitter.com&#x2F;DineshDSouza&#x2F;status&#x2F;1059147114826162177</a><p>[2] <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;twitter.com&#x2F;nntaleb&#x2F;status&#x2F;1059202026184282113" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;twitter.com&#x2F;nntaleb&#x2F;status&#x2F;1059202026184282113</a>
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jerf大约 6 年前
&quot;Since Silver’s forecasts begin with probability models, it’s safe to assume they obey all the rules, including Bayes’, and would be arbitrage-free.&quot;<p>I&#x27;ll do the author the courtesy of assuming they&#x27;ve got a more expanded version of their argument in their head and just failed to express that, but I don&#x27;t think that follows at all. I don&#x27;t think there&#x27;s a constraint on &quot;Nate Silver has a probability model&quot; that mathematically guarantees &quot;Nate Silver&#x27;s probability model&quot; is correct, in any sense of that term. One could certainly provide evidence and&#x2F;or proofs that Nate Silver&#x27;s model follows those rules, but I don&#x27;t think it just goes without saying. If nothing else the model could contain an straight-up error; goodness knows that&#x27;s easy enough.<p>(If one wishes to add to the concept &quot;probability model&quot; that it must be correct by definition, than I can&#x27;t accept the statement &quot;Nate Silver has a probability model&quot; with mathematical levels of confidence. He claims to have one, yes, but that&#x27;s a long way from a proof.)
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aubreyclayton大约 6 年前
So... I wrote this. Maybe I can clarify a little what I meant by the statement &quot;Since Silver’s forecasts begin with probability models, it’s safe to assume they obey all the rules, including Bayes’, and would be arbitrage-free.&quot;, since this seems to be confusing some people:<p>What I&#x27;m addressing here is Taleb&#x27;s claim that Silver&#x27;s probabilities would allow for arbitrage (i.e., riskless profit, not just profit on average) if turned into betting prices. This is in the sense of arbitrage-through-time, buying low and then selling high. As I discussed in the piece, an old argument due to de Finetti says that if prices are arbitrage-free they must satisfy the equations of probability, meaning you can in some sense think of the price as giving a probability of the outcome. For time-dynamic arbitrage the relevant equation is Bayes&#x27; Theorem. All I meant by my statement above is that the converse to de Finetti&#x27;s argument is also true, trivially. If prices obey the equations of probability they are automatically arbitrage-free. And since Silver&#x27;s probabilities begin life as probabilities, they satisfy all the relevant equations (one would expect).<p>Technically, the way we&#x27;d express this in modern finance is through the Fundamental Theorem of Asset Pricing, which says a (complete) market is arbitrage-free if and only if there exists an equivalent measure under which asset prices are martingales. Silver&#x27;s probabilities are necessarily martingales, just because of the way conditional probability math works, so unless Taleb can claim that his and Silver&#x27;s probabilities aren&#x27;t equivalent, meaning they disagree on what events have probability zero, then there is no chance of arbitrage. That&#x27;s just the mathy way of saying the same thing I said in the post.<p>There are many other possible errors Silver could be making, and many other possible criticisms Taleb could have made but did not. In this case he wrote a paper claiming a mathematical result that just isn&#x27;t true.<p>Hope that&#x27;s helpful!
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ham_sandwich大约 6 年前
Isn’t it just one big misunderstanding between them?<p>Taleb thinks 538’s probabilities represent a binary option price on the event, in which case, yes, the probabilities should stay very close to 50% because the vol is so high. Whereas Silver’s models are actually saying “Based on current polls, if the election were held tomorrow, then the probability candidate X wins is Y%” and are thus allowed to swing more wildly. Aren’t both just fundamentally different things or am I missing something in Taleb’s argument?
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hwestiii大约 6 年前
Nassem Taleb is an arrogant asshole who can&#x27;t write. I tried reading &quot;The Black Swan&quot; and gave up in a flurry of swearing after less than 100 pages because he utterly failed to justify any of his breathless assertions with anything resembling an argument. Assertion after assertion with no reasoning linking them. Game to Silver on points. At least he can back up his arguments with explanations.
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swanson大约 6 年前
Related meta-analysis from the last go-around: <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;towardsdatascience.com&#x2F;why-you-should-care-about-the-nate-silver-vs-nassim-taleb-twitter-war-a581dce1f5fc" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;towardsdatascience.com&#x2F;why-you-should-care-about-the...</a><p>(Implicitly endorsed by Taleb via retweet)
trpc大约 6 年前
I really want to be Nassim Taleb, I don&#x27;t want to get a real job, I don&#x27;t want to be a slave for any kind of rules or laws whether in corporates, government or academia, I am much bigger than that, I just want to make enough money trading and shorting stocks during an economic bubble and retire young and then set myself emperor of the world and make fun of whoever I don&#x27;t like such those academics who can&#x27;t make 6 figure until in their 50s, of course academics are much less smarter than a stock trader, otherwise why couldn&#x27;t they become rich like Taleb? right?!
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mrfredward大约 6 年前
If I understand Taleb&#x27;s argument, it can be boiled down to the following:<p>A year before an election, there&#x27;s 365 days worth of news stories, interviews, scandals, and other stuff that will be released to the public before election day. The day before the election, 364 days of that election influencing stuff has already happened and the effects of it are now known. As you get closer to an election, you have more information, and there is less time for public opinion to change, so it follows that you can be more certain of the election&#x27;s outcome.<p>Taleb&#x27;s assumption that voter psychology can be modeled with a random walk is pretty questionable, but if you give him that assumption, what&#x27;s wrong with his math? The article doesn&#x27;t actually address this.
sincerely大约 6 年前
On the other hand, he managed to get Nate Silver so mad that he called Taleb a cuck. So who can tell who is actually right
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jolesf大约 6 年前
Russ Roberts invited them both to discuss their differences on econtalk- Nassim promptly declined. Until that happens, I think the twitter feud is without value.
neuralk大约 6 年前
Taleb&#x27;s response to this article: <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;twitter.com&#x2F;nntaleb&#x2F;status&#x2F;1115684446081040386" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;twitter.com&#x2F;nntaleb&#x2F;status&#x2F;1115684446081040386</a>
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LanguageGamer大约 6 年前
From a business perspective, the volatility of Silver&#x27;s models seem like a feature - they enhance the drama &#x2F; sensationalism of election coverage. One week, he&#x27;s telling me candidate X will likely win, the next week it&#x27;s candidate Y, and I&#x27;m on the edge of my seat.<p>If Silver really believed these probabilities were correct, he should be willing make bets with these odds, otherwise his incentives are distorted.
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mathattack大约 6 年前
Taleb in person at a talk is very different than Taleb with a bottle of wine on Twitter.<p>To both of their credit, they’ve expanded my knowledge of probability and statistics.
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vertline3大约 6 年前
I stopped paying attention when Silver said the Buckeyes only had a 2 percent chance to win the title, because I knew that was bogus, team was stacked. Then he did the same thing with the Cavs when they turned around and won, so it just seemed to fit what Taleb says about &quot;predictors&quot; in The Black Swan. Since then, I don&#x27;t listen much to forecasters, their track record is dubious.
kiernanmcgowan大约 6 年前
Whilst the fighting between the two is childish, I&#x27;ve always found this interesting in a &quot;statistics vs probability&quot; perspective.<p>They may look like similar fields of art, but are radically different in their approaches and how they seek to understand the world.<p>It also doesn&#x27;t help that probability theory takes digs at statistics with rules such as the &quot;Law of the unconscious statistician&quot;
ikeboy大约 6 年前
&gt;The converse to the statement above is also true: if prices form a set of probabilities, then they are consistent. Since Silver’s forecasts begin with probability models, it’s safe to assume they obey all the rules, including Bayes’, and would be arbitrage-free.<p>I don&#x27;t believe this is correct. You can lose money to arbitrage even with a calibrated model if you ignore data someone else has, or include random noise someone else isn&#x27;t including, which is what Taleb&#x27;s argument is.
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ohboyherewego大约 6 年前
There are several problems with both of them.<p>(1) Most of Nassim Taleb’s math is more branding and showing off than actual science or statistics. It has been stated by people who are far smarter than Taleb that “if you can’t state it simply then you don’t understand it.” If Richard Feynman can explain physics in a relatable way, then taleb can talk about statistics in the same. He doesn’t because explaining is not his objective, personal branding is.<p>Taleb uses obscure, nonsensical math to show off and brow beat opponents. In my experience, working with people who are actually smart, this is not what very educated and intelligent people do.<p>The general public may fall for pictures of pages of obscure nonsensical calculations depicting god knows what, all I see is fraudulent personal marketing.<p>I say this having worked for and known CEOs who use the same tricks to lie to investors. It’s bullshit.<p>(2) Nate Silver runs a media opinion network. I followed his work and early on they did very rigorous analysis and had great and accurate visualizations which did seem to accurate predict results.<p>For whatever reason, I saw five thirty eight evolve into a bunch of media talking points and opinion mongering. The coverage on five thirty eight for the 2016 election resembled strongly that of standard news networks.<p>Why? Because if you want to make money on advertising you need to completely fill the airwaves with as much content as possible and opinion content is the cheapest and easiest to produce.<p>My opinion is that Nate slipped. His data analysis got distracted by running a media business, which focuses on advertising revenue and being likable by target demographics.<p>Frankly I don’t trust either of them. I also side more strongly with Taleb - predicting outcomes with random hidden variables is an exercise in chicanery.<p>No one wants to hear that the universe is random and that predicting it is impossible for long stretches of time. Look at the comments here, 90% of people (probably programmers) think that if they can just find the right equations then predicting the future is possible.<p>Nope.
nicholast大约 6 年前
Academic math: deriving precise solutions to predictive equations (eg @NateSilver538)<p>Risk taker math: evaluating exposure to potential distributions (eg @nntaleb)<p>With whom would you invest? Also, a useful heuristic to detect charlatans. Our knowledge of future never precise.<p>more at <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;twitter.com&#x2F;_NicT_&#x2F;status&#x2F;1115818015004688386" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;twitter.com&#x2F;_NicT_&#x2F;status&#x2F;1115818015004688386</a>
rossdavidh大约 6 年前
I really like reading Nassim Taleb&#x27;s books, but he appears to have all of the social skills of, say, Linus Torvalds, when interacting with others in a public way.
acqq大约 6 年前
Some old answers on Math Stack Exchange (Asked Sep 1 &#x27;16):<p><a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;math.stackexchange.com&#x2F;questions&#x2F;1911110&#x2F;what-is-nassim-talebs-criticism-of-538s-election-model" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;math.stackexchange.com&#x2F;questions&#x2F;1911110&#x2F;what-is-nas...</a>
dalore大约 6 年前
It might look bad for both for them but also a good way to drum up some twitter followers. I followed them.
hnuser355大约 6 年前
Taleb is smart etc but he’s basically a rambling eccentric who I ignore at this point
kevinventullo大约 6 年前
What&#x27;s the probability that these guys are friends in real life who both mutually benefit from the popularity of their public feud?
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thatoneuser大约 6 年前
I think nate silver is bad math because when he can capitalize on drama he does. He paints himself as a fortune teller via math but has clear demonstrable bias. When you do that as a predictor then you&#x27;ve thrown out your integrity.
maxxxxx大约 6 年前
I think the world would be a better place if nobody did any election forecasting. I don&#x27;t see what positive value these forecasts provide.
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KorematsuFred大约 6 年前
I have zero respect for election forecasters because I think they are not any better than astrologers. Nate silver has used the word probability in a way that is not consistent with mathematical definition of probability so often in this context.<p>Taleb despite being brilliant mathematician is actually pretty mediocre when it comes to real world. A lot of his &quot;discoveries&quot; such as &quot;skin in the game&quot; are well known to economists in the form of various theories.<p>I once exchanged few tweets with him about his criticism of Pinker&#x27;s claim that we are probably living in one of the most peaceful times in human history. At no point Pinker makes a claim it was inevitable or it being the evidence that peace will continue to exist. Taleb wrote a length paper on the topic which I found to be totally incoherent. When I asked questions his retort was that I do not understand statistics.
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