5G Is Likely to Put Weather Forecasting at Risk

While 5G Will be a great boon, especially the beam-forming satellite version, another unintended consequence besides weather remote sensing is nuking the extremely important 24 GHz range (K Band) for radio astronomy. There are a few narrow protected windows for absolutely critical spectral lines, but the truth is that nature doesn&#x27;t play by the spectrum allocations rules, and there are hundreds if not thousands of lines that are observed routinely outside of the protected bands. It is also remarkably free and clear of radio frequency interference (RFI), in part because industry has chosen other frequencies not attenuated by atmospheric water vapor. This isn&#x27;t to say we should halt global human progress to save a local river bait fish, but that threat to forecasting is only one of the serious consequences major spectrum reallocation can have. This is especially true for <i>passive use</i> in the sciences, which has a weaker lobby than the private sector.

Has anyone done a deep dive on 5g health concerns? E.g., 240-some scientists and 40 doctors signed a letter of discouragement (or something), claims research indicates 5g interacts with human biology in poorly understood ways: <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;ehtrust.org&#x2F;key-issues&#x2F;cell-phoneswireless&#x2F;5g-networks-iot-scientific-overview-human-health-risks&#x2F;" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;ehtrust.org&#x2F;key-issues&#x2F;cell-phoneswireless&#x2F;5g-networ...</a>

I was wondering, what exactly 5G will bring us. For the most part, all the tasks I need to do on a phone (pocket computer &#x2F; communicator) can be done even with 3G (video, streaming music, and any website&#x27;s loading time is more than acceptable at 3G speeds).<p>The only thing I can think of is 5G will allow for more overall network bandwidth, so the data caps on &quot;unlimited&quot; plans wouldn&#x27;t be needed. But compared to how we use our phones today, what new items will be be able to do with 5G that we can&#x27;t do with current 4G&#x2F;LTE?

&gt; Does this also mean that 5G will suck, when it’s raining? [from a comment below the article]<p>If 5G uses almost the same frequency where microwaves detect water vapour (around 24 GHz), won&#x27;t the weather have a great impact on it?<p>Also, I always thought that such small waves would have problems with obstacles, with good signal just when your phone is in line-of-sight with antennas.

I think the main point of 5g keeps getting missed when people are asking about cell phones and their broadband speed vs capacity etc etc. The only reason telcos are going to put in 5g is for IOT coverage. Low powered trickle data from billions of devices.<p>Stuff for your personal cellular use would never come close to covering the costs involved. And 4g will still be used for many years to come for that.

I’m somewhat confused. I’ll admit that I’m not very familiar with super high frequency radio, but isn’t the difference at least 200 MHz, approximately 10 times larger than the entire FM radio spectrum? Doesn’t out-of-band emission stop being a problem at that much separation? Or should we look at it relative to the base frequency?<p>edit: For what it&#x27;s worth, I found this paragraph from the FCC last year: <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.federalregister.gov&#x2F;d&#x2F;2018-14806&#x2F;p-20" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.federalregister.gov&#x2F;d&#x2F;2018-14806&#x2F;p-20</a> It sounds like they&#x27;re saying &quot;we don&#x27;t know if this will be a problem yet, but be prepared to limit emissions in 23.6-24ghz range because we might require it at some point&quot;.<p>Also, paragraph 9 of the same document has the actual band limits (with a special requirement) if anybody is interested:<p>&gt; The 24 GHz band consists of two band segments: The lower segment, from 24.25-24.45 GHz, and the upper segment, from 24.75-25.25 GHz<p>&gt; any mobile or transportable equipment capable of operating in any portion of the 24 GHz band must be capable of operating at all frequencies within the 24 GHz band, in both band segments

Rejecting on the grounds of no technical basis? I&#x27;d like to see more on that. I would hope when NASA raises a flag with the FCC it&#x27;s taken with sincerity.

Human fallacy, we all want it faster and more.<p>Bur for 99% of the cases, why would we need it?<p>IoT doesn&#x27;t need 5G, it needs LiRa.<p>Streaming applications, I can stream with 4G.<p>50 ms latency with 4G, so what. Except for competitive multiplayer gaming perhaps, I don&#x27;t see the issue. But I think they want everything wired ;)<p>Industrial applications, outside of IoT? Give me a valid example that needs countrywide coverage.<p>I hardly notice difference with 4G and my WiFi. Increase coverage for 4G, before implementing 5G.<p>Fyi: 4G offers maximum real-world download speeds up to 60Mbps. Currently, that is more than enough.

Pilot here - they used the example of a hurricane, however, I think it would have a daily impact on thousands of flights (general aviation and commercial) which all rely on on accurate weather forecasting. Weather is no joke in aviation; even if you&#x27;re flying a 747.

&gt; ... a letter from NASA Administrator Jim Bridenstine and Secretary of Commerce Wilbur Ross requesting that it be delayed. FCC Chairman Ajit Pai rejected the request ...<p>Ajit Pai strikes again!

I also do not really see the benefits of 5G.<p>I would be much more happy to have reliable 4G or 3G at least, first.<p>I suppose quite some support comes from people who have connection issues with weak 4G and assumes 5G will solve them.<p>But since 5G will consume apparently 3G towers and has much less range, quite the opposite could happen. Even less connection for people not in the city.

Slightly OT or meta. I keep bumping up against these nutty conspiracy theories about 5G being dangerous in various forums. Has anyone done a study of the effects of certain frequencies and energy levels on the human body that I can use to refute these fools? Also, what is the canonical source on 5g spectrum and power levels?

While most of the promise of 5g feels like overhype, this article has a bit of flat earth feel to it. For example, we’ve been trying to convert obsolete UHF frequencies to usable bandwidth for years only to find all sorts of reasons why it can’t be killed off. If 5g really threatened weather forecasting and radio astronomy I would think at minimum there would some sort of initiative to address it prior to a cutover - and yet, this article doesn’t seem to acknowledge such a thing exists so I’m left to conclude maybe the article is nothing more than a hypothetical what if that likely won’t have much impact in the real world. This is just my gut feel...

Can someone help me understand this better? What is &quot;very close&quot; to 23.8-GHz frequencies? I don&#x27;t know which bands 5G operates on, but it seems [1] that the closest they get, at least in the US, is ~27 GHz. If the FCC is auctioning 3000 licenses for the 24 GHz space, is that the space that can potentially interfere more? Can 5G operate on just any frequencies, then?<p>[1]: <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.cablefree.net&#x2F;wirelesstechnology&#x2F;4glte&#x2F;5g-frequency-bands-lte&#x2F;" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.cablefree.net&#x2F;wirelesstechnology&#x2F;4glte&#x2F;5g-freque...</a>

So how hard is it to limit the 5G signal to bandwidths that don&#x27;t interfere with weather forecasting, and how hard is it to detect and enforce laws against such bandwidth spillover?

This seems like a failure on the FCC&#x27;s part. If it was going to be a problem these frequencies should never have been licensed out to cell companies.

Stupid question. I was under the impression that one of the limits of 5g was that it was a short-distance signal, easily blocked by a wall or any obstacle. Is it really going to create interferences all the way to space? I thought satellites measured the temperature of the top of the atmosphere, not of stuff on the ground.

Why do we actually need 5g? Wired with last meter wifi is a lot better option imo for high bandwidth transfer

Any assurances that this won&#x27;t seriously disturb the earth&#x27;s ecology and human health, or do we no longer bother with that when manipulating the whole planet?

They are putting up &quot;DAS&quot; nodes all over my city. Nearly every block. Wonder if these will be hooked up with UHF 5G and what the ramifications may be.

Equally important but often overlooked concern is the risks it will pose to our health given 5G relies on much higher energy radio signals than 4G.

Wouldn&#x27;t it be possible to reuse the 3G frequencies with an updated technology in order to obtain higher bandwidths?

Seems striking especially topic not touched like radio astronomy.

A network of well-calibrated surface and marine weather stations and atmospheric probes is probably enough to produce reliable and precise weather forecasts in the today age of ML.

tl;dr<p>We get Water vapour readings (which feed into our weather forecasting models) from the ~24ghz range which 5G is going to blast away.

That&#x27;s interesting - I&#x27;m working on using cell signal strength as an indicator for live weather features! There&#x27;s a simple relationship between signal strength and clearness of weather - light rain has a distortion signal, heavier rain a heavier distortion, etc.<p>I&#x27;m betting that when all is said and done, the cell phones will help the weather forecast more than hurt it - but this may take some years if the cell companies are too greedy about it.<p>I&#x27;m working on detecting weather using all kinds of phone sensors like barometers and cameras in All Clear if you&#x27;re interested: <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;play.google.com&#x2F;store&#x2F;apps&#x2F;details?id=com.allclearweather.android" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;play.google.com&#x2F;store&#x2F;apps&#x2F;details?id=com.allclearwe...</a><p>and the open source sensor package: <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;github.com&#x2F;JacobSheehy&#x2F;AllClearSensorLibrary" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;github.com&#x2F;JacobSheehy&#x2F;AllClearSensorLibrary</a>

Ajit Pai makes me so angry.

As if mainstreaming weaponized radiation poisoning weren&#x27;t enough, let&#x27;s unemploy weather-girls in the same swing. It&#x27;s like Rod Serling took the brown acid.