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U.S.-Thai pair facing death for 'sea home' should fight charge, Thailand says

129 点作者 petethomas大约 6 年前

21 条评论

rayiner大约 6 年前
This is a really good illustration of the fundamental nature of law:<p>&gt; The pair are part of a “seasteading” movement that advocates the building of floating communities in international waters beyond the bounds of any national laws.<p>&gt; But the Thai navy raided their home this week and authorities revoked Elwartowski’s visa and charged them.<p>Law doesn&#x27;t exist in the aether. It&#x27;s an organized way to control the use of force, and to get other people to use coercion and the threat of force on your behalf. If you can&#x27;t use force yourself, or convince someone else to do it on your behalf, you&#x27;re in trouble. These seasteaders aren&#x27;t &quot;beyond the bounds of ... national laws&quot; they&#x27;re beyond the borders of a sovereign entity that is willing to use force on their behalf.
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nabla9大约 6 年前
It always astonish how little preparations people do before start projects like this where they throw money away. if you have extra money building that kind of construct is not significant, but it&#x27;s wasted effort nevertheless.<p>- Just cursory skimming of Wikipedia of laws of the sea would be enough to reveal that the place where they build their hut is within region of the sea where Thai government has the final say.<p>- China recently lost the South China Sea Arbitration where tribunal decided that construction of installations and artificial islands does not give rights to claim any sovereignty. If China can&#x27;t win a arbitration, neither can some Bitcoin Joe.<p>- There already exists practical way seasteading outside the government if you have they money. You buy yachts registered in offshore accounts. You can also buy a citizenship for tiny island nations that leave you totally alone. Rich people store their valuables in freeports or in their yachts. There are superyacht art collections that rival big museums floating around the world.<p>- Another example is floating armouries that private military companies have. They those ships to store military grad weapons.
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jaytaylor大约 6 年前
&quot;Please return, fight it in Thai court!&quot; Said the official.<p>Why should they voluntarily return to be evaluated against the existing law where the punishment is death!?
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Luc大约 6 年前
Some pictures of the underwater construction (a hollow &#x27;weighted spar&#x27;): <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;ocean.builders&#x2F;a-view-from-below-the-seastead&#x2F;" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;ocean.builders&#x2F;a-view-from-below-the-seastead&#x2F;</a>
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everyone大约 6 年前
I do understand the sea-steaders POV. It is annoying how when you are born, you are born into a pre-existing system of corporations and government over which you have little to no say in. One <i>must</i> get some pointless job in order to pay rent and not be homeless. For large sections of our evolutionary history humans lived in small groups and were nomadic. I reckon we still have instincts to explore and be self-governing and independent which are utterly stymied in the current milieu.<p>ps. I&#x27;m not intending to romanticize the past, which was pretty much chronic warfare and disease.
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mikeash大约 6 年前
What exactly is the crime they’re charged with, and how is <i>death</i> a possible penalty for building a house where you’re not supposed to?
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logfromblammo大约 6 年前
Thailand, that is not how the contiguous zone is supposed to work.<p>Sovereign territory stops at the 12 NM limit. The contiguous zone extends <i>up to</i> 12 NM beyond that, <i>for the purposes of enforcing sovereign powers within the territorial zone</i>.<p>A permanently stationed vessel at 14 NM from shore cannot violate sovereignty, <i>because sovereignty does not exist there</i>, and to claim such is to violate the Law of the Sea Treaty. And to violate the Law of the Sea Treaty is to invite Chinese, Cambodian, Vietnamese, Malaysian, and Burmese fishermen to scoop out everything in your 200 NM EEZ and take it home.
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Scoundreller大约 6 年前
FixedSeaStead:Sailboat::TinyHome:RV ?<p>I appreciate their interest in building such a thing, but what does it do that a 30&#x27; sailboat doesn&#x27;t do?<p>Is it more stable? I guess as area gets bigger, you need less material with more square&#x2F;circular designs.
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thinkingkong大约 6 年前
I mean. Dont take it sitting down but also get the hell out of Thailand if you can (and you can).
duxup大约 6 年前
I get some of the appeal to some extent but let&#x27;s say you could just build something out on the ocean and claim some sort of sovereignty. What protection do you have from someone just coming along and taking it from you?<p>Do they imagine some sort of everyone has sovereignty paradise, when a Mad Max &#x2F; Waterworld type result seems just as likely?
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return0大约 6 年前
Thailand&#x27;s government is a dictatorship. They are BSing, the seastead was beyond their territorial 12 miles, in the contiguous zone in which they have limited power. The exclusive economic zone is not territorial waters either. They have charged the couple with ridiculous &quot;violation of sovereignty&quot; at a place where they dont have sovereignity.
axaxs大约 6 年前
I&#x27;m not on Thailand&#x27;s side here WRT punishment, that seems a bit ridiculous.<p>That said, &#x27;international waters&#x27; are not the place to build semi-permanent housing. If everyone did that, where&#x2F;how would ships even operate? How long until Somali pirates show up, murder you, and take all your possessions with no &#x27;government&#x27; to protect you? I tend to side with Thailand basically telling them to sod off, just not with the threat of death&#x2F;imprisonment.
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gorbypark大约 6 年前
<a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;youtu.be&#x2F;c83TiSJ6sfA?t=64" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;youtu.be&#x2F;c83TiSJ6sfA?t=64</a> How sad :(
aloer大约 6 年前
from the article:<p>&gt; The group said in a statement the home was in a so-called contiguous zone of 12-24 nautical miles, where very limited Thai regulations applied, and they had no intention of setting up any independent state or “micro nation”.<p>from the two people charged themselves: <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;youtu.be&#x2F;8bceePdFruU?t=77" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;youtu.be&#x2F;8bceePdFruU?t=77</a><p>&gt; ...will be better governance<p>&gt; mumbling about living in a &quot;smart system&quot;<p>&gt; as opposed to [...] that current governments have<p>And if you watch a bit further he&#x27;s going on about how the FDA takes years to approve drugs and somehow living on the ocean would fix that
MaupitiBlue大约 6 年前
Why not just buy a 46’ catamaran?
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hash872大约 6 年前
Are there are any structures for large numbers of people to live on the ocean that are actually.... practical? Not an engineer, but it seems like quite a challenge. I&#x27;m sure it&#x27;s possible to come up with something that&#x27;s stable most of the time, but edge cases like hurricanes&#x2F;typhoons would seem to be tough to plan for?<p>I&#x27;d imagine that having a few wealthy backers who buy a used cruise ship would be more practical than trying to build a quasi-permanent structure out on the exposed ocean. The ship could just continuously idle in one place, preferably a pirate&#x2F;bandit free sort of area near the US.<p>Of course, ships require an absolutely staggering amount of maintenance, which would probably require some form of collective taxation among the residents to pay for it.... you&#x27;d have to have marine engineers on payroll, or fly them out at enormous expense etc. But that just gets to how silly these libertarian ideas are in practice
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blackflame7000大约 6 年前
“Thai sovereignty by raising a small cabin on top of a big, weighted spar in what they say are international waters, 14 nautical miles off the west-coast Thai island of Phuket.”<p>I wonder if the location was intentional or just great irony
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csours大约 6 年前
This really reminds me of the game Subnautica
_bxg1大约 6 年前
A death sentence? Excuse me?
shmerl大约 6 年前
Reminds me Waterworld.
voldacar大约 6 年前
The fact that this is even happening shows that the Thai state is seriously quaking in its boots.<p>In a certain sense, I guess they accomplished their goal
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