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Made in China, Exported to the World: The Surveillance State

275 点作者 petethomas大约 6 年前

13 条评论

throwanon大约 6 年前
I grew up in a third-world country, and I&#x27;ve noticed a palpable shift in the moods of my educated, middle-class friends and family back home.<p>People in many third-world countries have been fed the line that democracy is the correct form of government. This isn&#x27;t accidental: the soft power of Hollywood and the myth of American exceptionalism have been powerful incentives to have faith in the ability of democratic institutions to improve lives: it&#x27;s an odd form of cargo-cultism, and if you are a believer in freedom and democracy, a &quot;helpful delusion&quot;. The educated elites in third world democracies have recoiled from the notion of authoritarianism, and from the idea of having every aspect of their lives surveilled for safety.<p>Political events in the US, the rise of social media, and the risks of virality unexpectedly unleashing mob chaos have made them a lot more wary. Openness and the exchange of ideas exposes the worst of human nature: the trolls whose ideas are magnified by algorithms seeking to capture attention. The propagandists and bots with their massive reach are noticed by educated people, who can see how powerless or unwilling social networks and governments are to stop them. It doesn&#x27;t matter whether the propagandists succeed or not-their mere unfettered existence is enough to disturb people.<p>With the weakening of democratic norms, other options are suddenly back on the table. As people have theoretically become freer, they seem to seek more security. Blanketing a city with CCTV seems to be a pragmatic trade-off for personal safety. The censorship of China seems to be attractive because of the endless hateful noise of social media, the orderliness of having criminals removed from society permanently via the death penalty suddenly seems attractive. The lesser-educated never really cared for abstract notions of liberty anyway. In short, the authoritarian surveillance state is an increasingly attractive proposition to large swathes of humanity.
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winchling大约 6 年前
What&#x27;s the ideal size of a polis? Too small: there&#x27;s no privacy. Too large: also no privacy.<p>In the first case, for example a roving band of stone-agers, say N = 30 with all males related and everybody knowing the leader. Which is good because whatever the political system, leadership entails consent of the led. But bad because the leader knows everyone so it&#x27;s harder to act or think differently. Errors in understanding the world are firmly entrenched.<p>The second case might be for example a modern state of N = 100M, with IT. There are notional leaders but they are partly controlled by unseen oligarchs, possibly residents of <i>other</i> states. The bureaucracy and businesses collect and sell information about everybody. Voting, if it exists at all, generates little consent, since only a negligible fraction of people know the official leaders, let alone the oligarchs, let alone what sort of decisions will be consequently be made.<p>The ideal is therefore presumably where N is some fairly low multiple of <i>Dunbar&#x27;s Number</i>. But even if we wanted to we don&#x27;t have the technology or knowledge to implement this yet.
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yogthos大约 6 年前
This focus on surveillance in China is incredibly disingenuous because things aren&#x27;t actually all that different in the West. We all carry phones that collect a ton of information on us, and we now know that this information is shared with the government. The only difference is that in China you know that the state watches you while here we pretend that it&#x27;s not the case. The reality is that Chinese government is just more open about it. We also have a social credit system here it&#x27;s your credit rating score. Your value in the West is determined solely by the size of your bank account.<p>So, perhaps if we don&#x27;t like what we see in China, it&#x27;s time to start looking inward instead of pointing fingers.
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_lessthan0大约 6 年前
Also similar maybe not as in depth situations are made in the UK, US and others. Not just China.
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chriselles大约 6 年前
I wonder if Ecuador is the best example to use for the export of technology enabled authoritarianism?<p>I strongly suspect the generation of equipment installed in Ecuador misses the more recent and far more ominous AI&#x2F;ML force multiplier effect of surveillance technology.<p>Mass customised surveillance price&#x2F;performance is making an Orwellian&#x2F;Stasi state a reality.<p>In terms of authoritarianism versus democracy my thoughts are:<p>Votes can’t be eaten Votes can’t shelter you Votes can’t employ you Votes can’t educate your children Votes can’t ensure a better quality of life for you children<p>Votes don’t equate to trust<p>I strongly prefer living under democracy than authoritarianism.<p>But if there was a hypothetical binary choice between:<p>Corrupt democratic government<p>And<p>Net Promoter Score responsive authoritarian government<p>I believe the needle will be shifting away from the former and towards the latter.<p>Perhaps the perception of democracy as a luxury with a questionable value proposition to many is one that should be better considered?<p>Do we want&#x2F;need Government as a Service&#x2F;Subscription?
bluetomcat大约 6 年前
Invented in the West for public safety, exported to the rest of the world for corporate profit.
vms20591大约 6 年前
It&#x27;s always right when the West and big corporations do it, because they are the good guys, right?. Everyone has an agenda, whether its open or hidden.<p>Any form of violation of privacy or rights and anyone who does it should be held accountable. Just don&#x27;t pick and choose to suit your bias.
cooervo大约 6 年前
invented in the UK
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subjoriented大约 6 年前
The history of China&#x27;s rise as a technologically enabled state is in direct contradiction to the premise of the accusation.<p>The West invented technologically enabled surveillance. The Stasi in Germany - for example - developed a records and accounting system and would use home telephony equipment to spy on dissidents. As of the 70s and 80s the United States NSA has backdoored much of the modern global communications systems - and has build these systems to scale intelligence into actionable intelligence for partner enforcement organizations (CIA&#x2F;FBI&#x2F;etc). At a municipal scale, the United States is networked with threat scoring systems, camera networks with facial recognition, ISMI interceptors (with continuous passive collections events over all major cities), data fusion centers between policing and data networks, requirements to data holding companies to compel data access, and much more - these systems were build several decades ago but are constantly being updated.<p>China was struggling through these decades to reestablish itself, and has only recently copied modern Western systems of surveillance.<p>I don&#x27;t really have teeth in that game though. I realize this is a political topic (&quot;blame&quot;). The fact that the West employs a sophisticated and pervasive surveillance state should not restrict us from criticizing Eastern implementations of the same gross mal-application of technology. And the fact is that who &quot;invented&quot; it is a bit of a non-starter, as state surveillance existed thousands of years ago in rudimentary forms that have evolved independently between states - and the application of modern technology is just one aspect of historical picture.<p>Of course the surveillance situation in the United States goes much further, with state intelligence agencies actively &quot;engaged&quot; with the public so that public perception can be shaped. The NSA calls this combination of surveillance and engagement &quot;active listening&quot;. I don&#x27;t know whether China has learned from this yet (such topics are hard to research) but it wouldn&#x27;t surprise me.
jammygit大约 6 年前
I would have subscribed to the times by now if they practiced what they preached. Why can&#x27;t paykng subs be free of the tracking ads?
mv4大约 6 年前
It&#x27;s amazing how many of the top-selling IP cameras on Amazon (including &quot;Amazon&#x27;s Choice&quot; like Wyze) have buyer reviews where people discovered their cameras contacting servers in China, Russia, etc.<p>And that&#x27;s why we made an autonomous, cloud-less video security assistant. We should probably do a Show HN at some point!
intended大约 6 年前
I’ve written it elsewhere on HN, but the China model is going to be the more popular model of internet management.<p>It’s time to understand the implications of a govt sanctioned whitelist of information.
jackcosgrove大约 6 年前
How many people in this thread advocating for surveillance are doing so because they, as information workers, would personally have an advantage under such a system?