Ask HN: Should I teach my kids to type with QWERTY or Dvorak?

24 点作者 parvenu74将近 6 年前

While I'm not training my children to become programmers, it's a virtual certainty that any job/profession will require the use of a computer, and that means the ability to type. I keep reading that those who can type using the Dvorak layout are faster but have always thought "I'm too old to switch keyboard layouts at this point" -- but what about my kids who haven't even learned to type yet?Are there downsides of learning something other than QWERTY and, if so, do the benefits outweigh the negatives?

37 条评论

ausbah将近 6 年前

I don't think there is anything to gain speed wise from using Dvorak, and you'll only more compatibility issues from having to work in a QWERTY focused world.<a href="https://www.theverge.com/2019/2/17/18223384/dvorak-qwerty-keyboard-layout-10-years-speed-ergonomics" rel="nofollow">https://www.theverge.com/2019/2/17/18223384/dvorak-qwerty-ke...</a>Above is a good article on the topic.

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DarkWiiPlayer将近 6 年前

QWERTY 100%Living in Germany and being used to QWERTY it's really hard for me to use someone elses computer, because it will most likely be QWERTZ (German layout) and that alone annoys me to no end. I can't imagine how difficult it would be to be used to a completely different keyboard.

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mprev将近 6 年前

Think of it this way: would you teach your kids Esperanto instead of the native tongue in your country?Perhaps without realising it, the question you're asking is, "Should I teach my kids the thing that will help them in society as it exists or should I teach them a potentially superior but less applicable alternative?"

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KlaymenDK将近 6 年前

My kids are not quite old enough to require keyboard input (doing it, not receiving it, ya dummy) but I have pondered this very question.I have been using Dvorak almost exclusively for about 15 years now. It's not faster, that's a myth -- but it is much more easy on the fingers: depending on the nature of your prose, you'll save perhaps 30% finger movement. With Colemak, that number is less, but you gain a more comparable (to qwerty) shortcut-key layout.Obviously, there are all sorts of adversities facing Dvorak typists: native hardware keyboard layouts, limits to the users ability to configure software keyboard layouts (for instance, you may be able to change it on your desktop -- but not on the lock screen!), and of course having to fall back to qwerty on other's devices.Curiously, on a non-touch-typing device such as the touch screen of a tablet or mobile phone, I'm useless on Dvorak (perhaps exactly because Dvorak was designed for hand-alteration?), so there I'm by far more proficient with one hand on qwerty.In the end, I think I will settle for showing them both layouts in use at their home, and let them decide which to use. However, @kqr makes a number of very good points, not least the RSI one.There's also quite a lot of knowledge tucked away in this post: <a href="https://blog.hanschen.org/2010/01/30/dvorak-two-years-later-was-it-worth-it/" rel="nofollow">https://blog.hanschen.org/2010/01/30/dvorak-two-years-later-...</a>

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tomaha将近 6 年前

Teach them QWERTY. I use Programmer's Dvorak and I love it. But I also have a very specialized setup and everything optimized for myself. Your kids will have to work with different setups in the next decade or two. For them it's more important to be flexible. Later when they specialized themselves and only work in an environment they control they can switch and choose whatever fits them.

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ordu将近 6 年前

I'll ask one question. Is someone really needs typing speeds over 200 keys/minute? What task nowadays benefits from such speeds? Will these tasks keep being relevant in ten years?As a programmer I do not need 200 chars/minute. I believe that developed skills to use movement keys and key sequences, like arrow keys, Ctrl-arrows, Home, End, and others. For example, I struggle every time with a laptop keyboard, because Home/End/Delete are oddly placed and I miss them half of the times.

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simonh将近 6 年前

Bear in mind there's no point switching to a Dvorak keyboard unless you also teach them to touch type. A touch typist on a regular keyboard is still going to be a lot faster than a non-touch typist on a Dvorak.

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cordite将近 6 年前

You can be bilingual in layouts.I first learned QWERTY without any training, I needed to type for school and I wasn’t gonna hunt and peck. Then I decided to try out Dvorak for comfort and never looked back. (Though the experience was painful to switch over after years of QWERTY)I can still type QWERTY, in fact that’s what I use on my tablet with my thumbs, it’s a great layout for thumb typing, rarely do I find my fingers reaching over one another and I can type without looking at my screen.That said, for physical tacticile button pressing, I much prefer Dvorak, even without labels (typing on a MacBook keyboard for example, I ignore the QWERTY printed layout) I don’t have difficulty. It’s all about the physical sensation and which mode or language or whatever gets invoked in my head.I cannot type QWERTY effectively on MacBook keyboards or on most mechanical ones now, because of how they feel and what I use that feel for. But if it’s a cheapo Logitech or dell keyboard that you find at public locations and at work, there is barely a moment of conflict.

danieka将近 6 年前

When I was in school the only computers I had access to were in the schools computer halls which were shared with every other class in school. Settings like keyboard changes could not be persisted, and even so I got a different computer every time.I love Dvorak and using it has been a huge boon for me, but I'm also able to control my environment and always use the same computer.So I say go with QWERTY.

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todd8将近 6 年前

I don’t use Dvorak, but I’ve been intrigued by alternative layouts for years. I taught my daughter QWERTY years ago. My reasoning was that the speed difference between QWERTY and other layouts isn’t great, technology may change input methods before she was typing enough to worry about repetitive use injuries, and primarily because QWERTY keyboards are everywhere. At school the ubiquitous keyboards are all QWERTY and at work likewise.As an EMACS user I bind my keyboard’s caps lock to ctrl. That makes me realize just how often I’m typing on someone else’s keyboard (my fingers automatically hit caplock-B instead of back arrow for example). If I used Dvorak I think it would be much more frustrating trying to use a random keyboard.It didn’t take very long to teach my daughter touch typing. I would place my fingers on top of hers at first and touch her fingers during simple typing lessons to show her which finger to use. This seemed to allow her to connect a letter to the correct finger very quickly.Xah Lee has studied typing and keyboards for years. Take a look at his web site; it’s full of information [1]. He’s a Dvorak user.[1] <a href="http://xahlee.info/kbd/keyboard_dvorak_layout.html" rel="nofollow">http://xahlee.info/kbd/keyboard_dvorak_layout.html</a>

brutally-honest将近 6 年前

I switched from QWERTY to my language's equivalent of Dvorak and a few years later back.I think most important than the layout itself, is to learn how to touch type. Keeping your fingers on the home row. Using opposing control characters instead of using one hand to reach multiple keys, etc etc.

viraptor将近 6 年前

Why not both? If you're teaching kids, as long as you keep them interested, they'll learn anything. Knowing both, they'll be able to both use shared systems and choose the preferred layout for private situations.

robotmay将近 6 年前

I looked at learning an alternative layout last year and opted against Dvorak, as to me it just seemed illogical (personal opinion). I ended up teaching myself the Workman layout instead (<a href="https://workmanlayout.org/" rel="nofollow">https://workmanlayout.org/</a>) which is actually really nice. I was using a split keyboard and I found it very comfortable when typing prose, but I found punctuation frustrating due to the board I was using it on. I'm currently back on Qwerty as I've swapped to a different board.Ultimately I discovered that my typing style with Qwerty was actually not stressful on the hands (I float over the keyboard a lot and definitely don't sit on the "home" keys) and my RSI at the time was instead caused by position and lack of exercise. I now type on a Japanese layout keyboard which has some interesting differences to the standard UK ISO layout. At some point I might give Workman a go on this board too, but currently I'm actually completely happy with Qwerty again. I think a lot of these alternative layouts suffer problems if you aren't a home-row typist, and I don't actually think it's unergonomic or incorrect to type in a more floating, active way. But I play a bunch of key-based instruments too so maybe that affects my preference :)It took me about 1 month to be close to my normal typing speed when using Workman btw.

federico3将近 6 年前

Dvorak. I know 5 people, including myself, that switched to Dvorak and none of us regretted it or switched back.It's not about speed, at least for me, but reducing stress on fingers and prevent inflammation and RSI.Touch-typing comes easier with Dvorak. Even better if you use a Dvorak layout on a querty keyboard: there's no point in looking at the keys and this is also good for back/neck posture.Please ignore all the people who insist on using qwerty without having had at least a year of Dvorak use experience.

quickthrower2将近 6 年前

I’ve heard Dvorak users complain the regular shortcuts are geared up for QWERTY. I’ve also heard that Dvorak isn’t any faster. All anecdotal of course.

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comboy将近 6 年前

Others answered the question, I'm just about this "I'm too old to switch" bullshit.Whatever age you are, it will be hard. It will be very uncomfortable at first. But that's kind of great. You get to teach your brain something new. Keep pushing that neuroplasticity.When you are old(er) it's really hard to learn something truly new. Learning most things is just connecting a few existing patterns. You'll get some dopamine and you will be really proud that you've done that.You can also rationalize that it will pay off on the long run, but let's be real, if you are an advanced programmer you likely spend more time thinking than typing. It can be a more pleasurable experience to type though.Take the challenge and teach yourself Dvorak (or Colemak, doesn't matter). Even if you are a proficient typer it's also a chance to do some refactoring of the skill.

kqr将近 6 年前

If you're willing to put in the effort of teaching them touch typing on a real keyboard (by blanking out the keycaps or whatnot), go ahead and teach them on Colemak or Dvorak or whatnot.I don't care much for the arguments of the ubiquity of Qwerty for multiple reasons:1. They will be exposed to Qwerty on devices where touch-typing is meaningless, such as smartphones and tablets.2. They will learn Qwerty eventually anyway, and they'll be proficient in both. Why set them off on the worse of the two options from the start?3. I'm sure schools and other parts of society are moving away from shared workstations onto personal laptops, where they get to control keyboard settings.4. If I had to choose between being doomed to RSI or encountering keyboard incompatibilities every now and then, I would not pick RSI lightly.Learning Colemak was painful for a while, but worth it many, many times over in retrospect.

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scottmsul将近 6 年前

I taught myself Dvorak my first year in undergrad. It definitely felt easier to type, but as soon as I went to physics lab I realized I couldn't use the lab computer! I have stuck to Qwerty since then.When your children go to school, do you think using Dvorak will make it easier or harder to use school computers?

peelle将近 6 年前

I use Dvorak, I'm faster in Dvorak, and have less RSI issues. As an adult that works from hardware I control I almost never have to type QWERTY anymore.In the past things like computer labs, and locked down school computers would have pushed me to recommend QWERTY. Nowadays everyone has their own iPad, or laptop, so this is much less of an issue.The only time I have issues is during computerized testing, or using someone else's computer. I have a USB dongle that I can put between the keyboard and computer that'll swap the characters I type Dvorak, and the dongle swaps the QWERTY input to the correct ones as I go.For testing I can request they change the layout, but it rarely gets approved. For random people, they usually let me add another layout without issue.I'm recommending Dvorak, but there will still be a few pain points.

melling将近 6 年前

Perhaps people should also consider ergonomics. QWERTY tends to require a lot more finger movement.<a href="http://patorjk.com/keyboard-layout-analyzer/#/main" rel="nofollow">http://patorjk.com/keyboard-layout-analyzer/#/main</a>Over a lifetime this might lead to RSI.

stunt将近 6 年前

Choose a comfortable layout but also consider hardware and software support for it. Dvorak is a good choice. Comfortable enough and well supported. QWERTY is probably one of the worst layouts for your fingers.I'm using Dvorak and I can still type on QWERTY keyboards with 70% of my normal speed.I'm pretty sure the total amount of time that I'm typing on someone else's computer (QWERTY) is less than one hour per year and I don't need speed or accuracy when it happens. Not to mention, my external keyboard supports Dvorak in hardware level. So I could just connect my keyboard and type Dvorak on any computer without changing any configuration. But it happens so rarely that I don't bother to do it.

cameldrv将近 6 年前

I think this is almost the same as asking "should I encourage my ambidextrous child to write with his left or right hand?" You can get by just fine as a lefty, but there are daily annoyances, because the world is built for righties.Keyboards are on computers, phones, on-screen in video games and TVs, on vending machines, and in car entertainment systems. Some of these can be converted into Dvorak if you find the right menu setting, others must be used as-is.If someone hands you their phone or you sit down to pair program, now you have to figure out some menu setting, and then you have to remember to reverse it when you're done or the owner of the device is going to be annoyed with you. Not worth it.

ryandvm将近 6 年前

Teach them to use QWERTY first. It's the layout that almost everyone uses and it's one of the skills that will make them relevant in the modern workforce. The last thing an employer wants to deal with is some sap that shows up pissing and moaning that they need a new keyboard.Teaching them DVORAK first is like raising your kids to speak Esperanto as a primary language. Sure, maybe it's an objectively better language, but at what cost?If they actually get to the point that they're typing enough that they're interested in pursuing more efficient/ergonomic layouts, that's a choice that is best left up to them.

jmull将近 6 年前

Looks like there's already plenty here you can use to make an informed decision, but one more thing to think about:Typing speed, beyond a basic level of competence, has pretty much nothing to do with programming skill. In fact, if your bottleneck is typing speed, you're likely better off stopping and spending some time thinking about how you might be doing things differently. (Not that we haven't all been there, but it should be a vanishingly small proportion of your overall time, hopefully.)

docdeek将近 6 年前

I learnt QWERTY as a kid/teenager in Australia.Arriving in France 13 years ago I was a bit lost tempoararily with the switch to AZERTY, almost to the point of seeking out a keyboard online to get back to a ‘normal’ keyboard. I stuck it out, though, and soon anything but AZERTY seemed strange and slow - visiting my parents in London and henpicking around their keyboard when I am meant to be ‘the tech-y one’ is always a little amusing.Go with QWERTY, and if they want to change later they can and will.

dougmwne将近 6 年前

You are not too old to learn Dvorak. If you're interested in it, go for it. It took me about a week and it was a fun project. Then, after a few months I dropped it and went back to Qwerty. The world uses Qwerty and I was being too contrarian.There's no need to subject your kids to this mess of a debate. You don't even use Dvorak at home. There's basically no chance they'd continue to use it later in life. Prepare them for the world that's actually out there.

AdmiralAsshat将近 6 年前

I type somewhere between 90-103 WPM on a QWERTY layout, and I'm not even using proper home row position. My uncle let me play with a computer starting from the age of 5, and so by the time they taught us "keyboarding" in high school, my self-taught method was pretty set in stone. I only use maybe 6 of my 10 fingers when typing.Which is to say, your children will be fine. Just let them practice, and they'll get more than fast enough.

alasarmas将近 6 年前

If you live in the United States, one thing to consider is that the GRE (Graduate Record Examination, standardized entrance examination for graduate school) requires the test-taker to type an essay on a QWERTY keyboard, with no possibility of using a different keyboard layout short of a documented disability. Further, spelling counts on this essay, so typos made due to unfamiliarity with the keyboard layout will bring down the grade.

Endy将近 6 年前

The QWERTY standard has lasted since the Remington 2, and most devices are based on it. That's what you should teach your children first. If you intend to teach them languages early, QWERTZ or AZERTY might be valuable. If you're thinking of teaching them Mandarin, teach them to use a Chinese keyboard as well as QWERTY.

jyriand将近 6 年前

Maybe not the best analogy, but teaching Dvorak is like forcing left-handed child to write with right hand. But maybe it’s other way around. I wouldn’t actively try to teach them anything, but let them learn on their own. At some point they would understand that my laptop keyboard is different from mommy’s and adapt accordingly.

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mcfunk将近 6 年前

They might find greater ease with learning both at this point in life. But unless you homeschool, the probability that your children will have to work on QWERTY computers they don't have the ability to change into Dvorak input mode at school approaches 1. They'll need it.

kgwxd将近 6 年前

No one has ever presented hard evidence that another layout is faster or healthier. Any job that requires typing faster than you can think would have to be mindless and, no matter what keyboard, would likely result in RSI. I wouldn't recommend anyone take that job.

foreigner将近 6 年前

I also have kids and am interested in the same question, but I would raise it up a level and ask: "Should I teach my kids to type?"Right now they mostly use voice recognition and seem to be getting along pretty well...

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jenhsun将近 6 年前

Don't worried. Let them choose what to play with. They will learn faster than you, I promise.Off-topic: I'm kinda worried our kids might not know or use pens correctly if we keep pushing keyboard use.

hackerpacker将近 6 年前

been there, use qwerty.1. every keyboard in the wild they encounter will be qwerty2. probably a matter of time before keyboard is fully optional/non existent.This will give them zero "advantage" in the real world.

kojeovo将近 6 年前

You gonna teach them to carry a Dvorak keyboard with them everywhere they go too?

mruts将近 6 年前

I don't think there are really any downsides. I can type in both Dvorak and QWERTY at over 120wpm and don't have any trouble switching between the two. I also use QWERTY on my phone, so maybe that helps a bit.Dvorak is definitely superior to QWERTY comfort-wise (I used to get bad RSI with QWERTY, but that doesn't happen for Dvorak), and maybe speed-wise, though my speed in both is about the same. I can keep up a high rate of speed on Dvorak longer than QWERTY, though.An an aside, I don't think you're ever too old to try something new. I learned Dvorak as an adult and it only took me a couple weeks before I was up to my QWERTY speed. Interestingly enough, after I learned Dvorak my speed with QWERTY actually increased, for whatever reason.