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U.S. cancels $929M in California high speed rail funds after appeal rejected

212 点作者 petethomas大约 6 年前

38 条评论

notJim大约 6 年前
The US desperately needs to figure out how to do big infrastructure projects like this. High-speed rail is a critical piece of a greener economy, because it can truly compete with air travel at medium distances, and blows car travel out of the water. It&#x27;s really unfortunate that the political incentives seem to be that Republicans are just outright opposed to any kind of government infrastructure spending unless it&#x27;s a money-making scheme for their donors, and Democrats want to defend any project that sounds good, and damn the costs or whether it&#x27;s actually successful.<p>What we need is a willingness to do major, expensive projects (high-speed rail is just <i>not</i> going to cheap in California, or anywhere), <i>and</i> ruthless commitment to making them happen efficiently. When a project like this fails in this way, all it does it play into the hands bad-faith actors who will never support major infrastructure projects. Then, people who <i>are</i> acting in good faith oppose them too, because there aren&#x27;t enough counter-examples of successful projects.
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rsync大约 6 年前
Good.<p>I want an <i>actual high speed train</i> from the new downtown SF transit station to Union Station LA in two hours or less.<p>I would like a high speed train that won&#x27;t be obsolete the day it is opened.<p>What was being (haltingly) built was a ridiculous route-by-committee with time consuming (and sprawl inducing) stops in whichever districts had an assertive rep willing to sacrifice a project of national importance for their little town.<p>All you needed to know about CA HSR could be learned by seeing it was not built on the I-5 corridor. Fresno and Palmdale should be <i>spurs</i> - not route benders.
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noonespecial大约 6 年前
The really humbling thing about visiting things like the Hoover Dam is realizing that things like this are impossible today.<p>If they started that dam today, they&#x27;d spend 20 years and twice the money the dam actually cost just on lawsuits and papers and have nothing to show for it decades later.
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dberg大约 6 年前
77 billion for a train in 2033 ? And people wonder why we in the US think the government is completely unable to run these types of projects effectively. Total joke.
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kenneth大约 6 年前
Nothing quite embodies the utter failure of the US and CA in particular as this embarrassing high-speed rail project. This is something that has been pioneered, developed, and commoditized in other countries, both in Europe and Asia.<p>The CA project had incredibly modest ambitions: a single line, over a relatively short distance, through terrain that isn&#x27;t too challenging, going at moderate speeds, using completely standard technology. This isn&#x27;t a hyperloop, a maglev, a hyperfast train, a dense network, or anything else that can fail because of technology risk. It&#x27;s purely a failure at execution, pretty much entirely because of politics and corruption. In the US, the process for infrastructure construction is entirely broken, and the never-ending political battles that pop up with every project completely incapacitate development.
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mikepurvis大约 6 年前
Even for people who hate the &quot;green&quot; aspect, high volume mass transit is important for enabling the vision where autonomous taxis actually serve last mile rather than just sitting in traffic jams for hours like you do in your regular car.
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6gvONxR4sf7o大约 6 年前
It&#x27;s really shitty if this is a selective action against California and not large projects overrunning costs in other states. At the same time, when the project costs 10x what was promised, saying no seems like a good thing. If this kind of cancellation was applied to all projects going as poorly as this, it&#x27;d be a really fair decision.
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pascoej大约 6 年前
Honestly glad. Highspeed rail is not going to work in America if it takes 77B and and over 10 years to complete one line. About 10 years ago China had only 1 high speed rail line, now look.
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rayiner大约 6 年前
Probably better for the environment that this failed. Construction would release so much CO2 that the California HSR would have to be as busy as the entire Northeast corridor to break even in terms of carbon impact. <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.citylab.com&#x2F;transportation&#x2F;2011&#x2F;11&#x2F;how-green-high-speed-rail&#x2F;492" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.citylab.com&#x2F;transportation&#x2F;2011&#x2F;11&#x2F;how-green-hig...</a>. That is basically a fantasy given that the northeast corridor passes through the densest megalopolis in the country, and connects seven major population&#x2F;business centers, while the California HSR would pass through nothing.
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geogra4大约 6 年前
It&#x27;s unbelievable how awful we are at building high speed rail, or any rail at all in this country.
jonathankoren大约 6 年前
As someone who voted for the the $10B bond, and would love to see HSR, all I have to say is: Good.<p>We have to admit that CalHSR is a failure, and building a train between Bakersfield and Merced is stupid.<p>The United States has some systematic problems when it comes to infrastructure. We see it at both the micro and macro level.<p>At the micro level, it takes four guys more than a month to fix an escalator at a BART station. Months to paint lanes on a street in San Jose.<p>At the macro level, $13B becomes $98B.<p>CityLab ran a story about why NYC stopped building subways.[0] In it, it plotted the cost subway construction cost per mile at different times in <i>constant 2017</i> dollars. First line cost $125M&#x2F;mile in 1904. In 1944 it went up to &lt;$500M, and even in 1988, it was just above $500M. Not bad for 44 years. Then cost go exponential in 2017 and 2019, ending at $4000M&#x2F;mile! This is stupid.<p>Another article (which I have sadly lost) compared the cost of construction in the US to France. I think they compared a Boston subway line to a Parisian one. The Boston one costs twice as much, and requires twice as many people for “safety”. I’m sorry, but this is grift.<p>Then of course there’s all the environmental and neighborhood reviews that cost more, and stymie everything.<p>If we want to make any progress, I’m thinking we’re going to just have to bust all of this up. Cut the red tape, and go with closed price bids. Hell, use foreign contractors. The French are apparently half the cost, faster, and high quality. Just hire them and be done with it.<p>[0] <a href="http:&#x2F;&#x2F;getpocket.com&#x2F;explore&#x2F;item&#x2F;why-new-york-city-stopped-building-subways" rel="nofollow">http:&#x2F;&#x2F;getpocket.com&#x2F;explore&#x2F;item&#x2F;why-new-york-city-stopped-...</a>
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dantheman大约 6 年前
This project didn&#x27;t make sense from the start - look at where the construction is and what&#x27;s been done. It should be SF to LA not all this other nonsense.
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tick_tock_tick大约 6 年前
Can&#x27;t say I&#x27;m surprised. While in general the USA has had a very hard time with new infrastructure projects California has always taken it to the next level.
esilver大约 6 年前
Merced to Bakersfield will probably be the fastest-growing corridor in the state for the foreseeable future, however, the state received HSR funding contingent on the development of a San Francisco to Los Angeles route.<p>It’s completely unsurprising that the Department of Transportation wants the funding back after the state downsized the project from nationally-significant to regionally-significant.
jedberg大约 6 年前
Good. It was a huge waste of money anyway. It was being built in the wrong order (why would you build the parts that would get the least ridership first?!), it was going to the wrong places, and at the end of the day, it would not have helped the poor communities between SF and LA.<p>We have hundreds of flights a day between SF and LA. We don&#x27;t need a train to replace that.
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jorblumesea大约 6 年前
It seems that every major American infrastructure project is dominated by concerns other than building a practical, efficient forms of transportation.<p>Transportation projects are dominated by politics, handouts, corruption and excessive opposition to transportation even existing, while ignoring practical and common sense ideas.<p>The Cal High speed rail is a perfect example. Routes that don&#x27;t serve major population centers, fights over land use, fights over whether a rail line should even exist, circuitous routes to reward political supporters, lack of transparency and auditing tools, cost overruns and corruption...<p>There&#x27;s a good write up here: <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.city-journal.org&#x2F;californias-high-speed-rail-project" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.city-journal.org&#x2F;californias-high-speed-rail-pro...</a><p>Europe and Asia just build transit to be transit. In the US at least, if something actually gets built and used it&#x27;s just a nice side effect.
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docker_up大约 6 年前
A train between Merced and Bakersfield? The talks of Bridges to Nowhere dwarf the ridiculousness of this Train To and From Nowhere. Who the hell would use this to make it profitable enough to justify?
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SubiculumCode大约 6 年前
I can&#x27;t help but feel that the solution to overblown infrastructure costs would involve less contracting and more of construction directly with state employees and resources. Sure government is less efficient than the private sphere, but government contractors have awful incentives when it comes to cost effectiveness...bilking the state for more hours&#x2F;supplies is more much profitable than doing a job quickly and cost-effectively, and contractors are very efficient at doing that.
tomohawk大约 6 年前
Pretty massive blow to CA style politics &#x2F; governance. This was a feather in the cap of the Democrat party and they turned it into an anchor. Complete failure to execute.
reaperducer大约 6 年前
As a fain of rail travel, and someone who sometimes needs to travel this corridor, I was really looking forward to riding this line.<p>I noticed a lot of the California headlines about this have painted it along the lines of &quot;Evil Trump administration killing California high speed rail!&quot;<p>The reality is, though, that California botched this project. The Federal funding was contingent on California making progress, and the amount of funding was sized for the size of the project.<p>California has made little progress, and the size of the project has been reduced. It&#x27;s only fiscally responsible for the feds to take back the money. Just like if you promise a VC a million users in the first year, but only deliver 10,000 they&#x27;re going to look at you sideways.<p>FTA: <i>Federal Railroad Administration (FRA), said on Thursday it had canceled the funding awarded in a 2010 agreement after it said the state had “repeatedly failed to comply” and “failed to make reasonable progress on the project.”</i><p>Fortunately, high speed rail is making (slow) progress in other states like Florida, Illinois and Texas. Hopefully the money can do some good in those places.
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manigandham大约 6 年前
This project isn&#x27;t economically viable in the first place. Unless engineering and real estate costs drop by an order of magnitude, there&#x27;s not enough visitor travel or transit density or cost differential where this makes sense as planned. It was doomed from the start.
inspector14大约 6 年前
wasn&#x27;t a large amount of corruption surrounding this deal specifically a major plotline in true detective season 2?
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myrandomcomment大约 6 年前
I agree. Merced to Bakersfield - really who cares? LA to SF is the only route that makes sense. Do that or do nothing. Who the heck needs high speed rail line between Merced and Bakersfield? That being said, this was very politicly motivated, of that I have no doubt.
lchengify大约 6 年前
Having lived for 6 years in the rail transport capital of the US (NYC &#x2F; Philly &#x2F; Northeast Corridor) and 4 years in SF, I can honestly say that I don&#x27;t think there is a world where this was going to work.<p>Let me state for the record that I am a <i>huge</i> fan of rail and public transit in general, but the forces and timing working against this project were too large to be overcome even with $10B in backing.<p>Here are some of the reasons:<p>1. Lots of people here are comparing this project to projects in China. I think it&#x27;s hard to overstate how one of the most expensive process (land acquisition by the government) is fundamentally different in China vs the US. The idea of &quot;land ownership&quot; in China is entirely different: Most private entities don&#x27;t &quot;own&quot; land in the US sense, they may lease it for a long time (~99) years but ultimately its incredibly easy for local and national governments to execute eminent domain with little or no regard for land rights. Yes, this make public transport easier, but land rights are fundamental for the continuation of a democracy. It&#x27;s not something we want to mess with.<p>2. Culturally, California is just not a train state. In the Northeast Corridor, trains and public transit are just more engrained in the culture. Kids learn at the age of 5 that NJ Transit, LIRR, or Metro North is the best way in and out of NYC. Most of my friends in NYC don&#x27;t even have drivers licenses. Things are closer together, land is flatter, there aren&#x27;t huge swaths of nature in between things, and there&#x27;s such a high density of people and economic activity that trains have made sense for a long time. Yes, the NYC subway has its problems, but I can always bet that 24 hours a day, 7 days a week, I can get from Manhattan to JFK in an hour. In SF it&#x27;s hard to even tell if I can get across the Bay past Midnight.<p>3. The small decisions made about stops, contracting, and procurement for the high speed rail were more about making the project politically palpable than actual need or engineering practicality. Taking a weird detour to Palmdale, as detailed in the Vox article below, is the best example of this [1]. The Palmdale route alone made the north-south trip 12 minutes slower while costing $5 billion in extra spending. If you&#x27;re going to make that kind of decision over and over again and stack turtles until everyone&#x27;s happy, you&#x27;re going to make a great piece of paper but nothing that will ever turn on.<p>4. The decision to do this wasn&#x27;t organic. If you take a look at regional transit needs in CA generally, no one was stack ranking high speed rail at the top. In LA you have basic problems with inaccessibility within most of the city, the most egregious being the lack of connectivity to LAX (which just started getting built last year). In SF you have gridlock where we can&#x27;t add diesel trains to CalTrain because it needs to get Electrified first by law, but that process won&#x27;t happen until 2022 [2]. If we can&#x27;t upgrade a regional rail that serves 1&#x2F;3rd of the economic activity of the state, what makes us think we can build a high speed rail that is (back of the envelope) 10x as long? At least in the northeast, trains systems were built where there was (1) incredible demand and (2) an understanding that it could be built where value would be opened up as it was happening. Which is why those rail lines start in major metro areas and extend outward, rather than building in the central valley and working backwards.<p>5. Air and car travel, despite its (obvious) climate change problems, just works. It&#x27;s relatively cheap, it&#x27;s well understood, and given the vast distance and significant nature features between population areas, it&#x27;s a good solution to a hard problem. LAX sucks, but LA has 4 regional airports that can be used once you understand how. Flights are frequent, have lots of type options, and can be purchased for $50 one way. Roads and cars work better on mountain terrain than rail, and can better serve a dispersed population. Yes, we cannot run on gasoline forever if we want to save the planet, but right now it&#x27;s easy to understand why California has stuck with this solution so long given its difference to other major areas that use trains.<p>Overall, I was rooting for this, but this end was inevitable. But it&#x27;s not the end of the world. We will learn from this and find a way, and I&#x27;m convinced in the end it will be more economical and fit California&#x27;s unique parameters better than a $90B train. The solution may be something we can&#x27;t see now (self-driving battery-powered cars on isolated freeway lanes, anyone?), but we&#x27;ll find it. I know we will<p>[1] <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.vox.com&#x2F;policy-and-politics&#x2F;2019&#x2F;2&#x2F;15&#x2F;18224717&#x2F;california-high-speed-rail-canceled" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.vox.com&#x2F;policy-and-politics&#x2F;2019&#x2F;2&#x2F;15&#x2F;18224717&#x2F;c...</a> [2] <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;calmod.org&#x2F;" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;calmod.org&#x2F;</a>
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musicale大约 6 年前
Looks like Bakersfield won&#x27;t become that booming metropolis that everyone was expecting it to be. ;-&#x2F;<p>More seriously, the feds seem to be kind of right; it has been 9 years and California hasn&#x27;t made much if any progress.
ummonk大约 6 年前
Wasn’t part of the criteria of the original funding grant that the project could be scaled back to derive direct benefit from the funding without needing additional full construction of the high speed rail?
lostdog大约 6 年前
Newsom should have used the money to upgrade Caltrain and SF rail stations, and THEN cancel the project. At least then something useful would have gotten done.
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paxys大约 6 年前
Kinda happy this shitshow is put to rest. I just hope this doesn&#x27;t have any effects on Caltrain electrification funding.
calebgilbert大约 6 年前
I don&#x27;t see for all the world how this isn&#x27;t an utter failure for both the management for this project and the ultra combative style that the previous and current California gubernatorial administrations approach just about any and all dealing with the feds since Trump was elected. Have a feeling this might be where &#x27;more red meat for the base&#x27; might have met it&#x27;s match in terms of cognitive dissonance for at least some California voters.<p>UPDATE - : CA Governor Newsom this afternoon (via Sacbee): &quot;The Trump Administration’s action is illegal and a direct assault on California, our green infrastructure, and the thousands of Central Valley workers who are building this project,” he said. “Just as we have seen from the Trump Administration’s attacks on our clean air standards, our immigrant communities and in countless other areas, the Trump Administration is trying to exact political retribution on our state. “This is California’s money, appropriated by Congress, and we will vigorously defend it in court&quot;<p>Exactly the type of rhetoric, attitude, and threats that help push this situation in the first place (well, along with the gross mismanagement by the state for years) and he still can&#x27;t quit digging.
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rurban大约 6 年前
This really cries for Elon, cutting out the expensive middle men. Wonder if he dares.
eam大约 6 年前
I&#x27;ve seen several parts of the legs laid out already so I was wondering if they can just convert it to a highway. The current highway, route 99, which runs almost parallel to it is beginning to get congested quite often, so it could probably get repurposed for a highway, otherwise it will just be a symbol of failure.
HillaryBriss大约 6 年前
&gt; <i>The ... state had [originally] planned to build a 520-mile (837 km) system ... from Los Angeles to San Francisco ... Newsom said in February the state would instead complete a 119-mile high-speed link between Merced and Bakersfield...</i><p>Um... That&#x27;s not really gonna help.
pelemele大约 6 年前
...and next step should a proper audit of the while train fiasco...
viktorvamos大约 6 年前
It&#x27;s more of a Shelbyville idea...
nabakin大约 6 年前
&gt; The largest U.S. state has repeatedly sued the Trump administration and officials expect the state will sue over the rescinding of rail funding.<p>Um..did we forget about Texas and Alaska?
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tomatotomato37大约 6 年前
See, this is kinda my problem with the whole push for nationalized healthcare in the US; it&#x27;s not the nationalized healthcare part that&#x27;s the problem. The Germans can do national healthcare beautifully. The Swedes can do national healthcare beautifully. The UK can do national healthcare... competently. But if the current US bureaucracy was put up to the task, than in a year we&#x27;ll end up having serious articles about the resurgence of the plaque in Kentucky. I&#x27;m not sure how, but we <i>really</i> need to fix the current bureaucratic situation before we give them any more responsibility in the manner
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starpilot大约 6 年前
Hyperloop seriously has a better chance of building an SF-LA line than the state of CA, and also SpaceX has a better chance of reaching Mars before 2024 than NASA returning the moon in that time (in 2004, GWB announced NASA would return to the moon by 2020). Government just can&#x27;t do big projects any more.
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staunch大约 6 年前
Startups really do seem to be the best solution to problems like these. Elon Musk is leading teams that are solving some of the world&#x27;s biggest problems. Those efforts greatly benefited from government subsidies, funding, etc.<p>Let&#x27;s just admit finally that governments are really only good at writing checks, that they suck at managing projects, and then just work very hard figure out where those checks should go.<p>Our governments(s) should give a bunch of teams $10M to design projects, then a few teams $100M to prototype them, and then one or two teams the billions required to build them out. I bet there&#x27;s a qualified and moral person on HN that could lead a successful high speed rail project with government backing.
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