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Please don’t theme our apps

169 点作者 forlorn将近 6 年前

29 条评论

random45345将近 6 年前
The whole letter sounds weird when talking about free software. Software freedom main benefit is that the user can change the software. Theming it is probably the most accessible form of modification and should be celebrated. Asking not to theme is contrary to the free software ethos itself.<p>The situation is even more tricky as what is being modified is not even the software itself but the system dependencies. Essentially the developers in this letter say: do not run our software on an environment that is not the one we support (in practice fedora or a close clone of it) and if you create a distro make sure its a clone of what we support.<p>I understand the fact that developers do not want to support bugs due to user modifications and strange environments. Free software doesn&#x27;t imply free support so they can put any restriction on what they want to do. The letter however would have been much less weird if it said &quot;we cannot ensure quality of software X except on our build running on a supported environment, if you run the software elsewhere or with changes (and theming is a change) please don&#x27;t call it X to avoid confusion and remember you are on your own&quot;.<p>What Firefox did I think its a smart solution to this problem. &quot; We offer Firefox on platform x,y,z. If you build it on something else, call it something else, if you run it on another platform remember you&#x27;re on your own&quot;.
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quantummkv将近 6 年前
This is more of an indictment of the way GTK3+ handles theming (or lack of it). GNOME&#x2F;GTK devs, as usual, got confused and implemented something no one wants. Either you provide a proper and defined way to theme like KDE does or take the windows&#x2F;mac route and tell developers to recreate any custom themed control from scratch.<p>Instead, they go around saying that there is only one GTK theme and then leave a convenient backdoor open for hacks with a nudge and a wink. Either open the front door and roll out a carpet or close all the doors and windows.
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Arctaire将近 6 年前
I feel like an &quot;open letter&quot; is a pretty odd way to ask something of the maintainers of distributions that do not install GNOME with its stock Adwaita theme. Indeed, despite being created some two weeks ago, the (small) notice at the top that this particular open letter is aimed only at distribution maintainers was only added yesterday[1].<p>How many do so, anyway? I know Ubuntu has the Yaru[2] theme by default.<p>I&#x27;ll add that I personally find the stock Adwaita theme to be total garbage. I&#x27;ve been using the Vimix dark themes[3] for as long as I can remember because they don&#x27;t make the title bar of windows 30 storeys tall and they don&#x27;t use beige.<p>1. <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;github.com&#x2F;do-not-theme&#x2F;do-not-theme.github.io&#x2F;commit&#x2F;72fb77415c5f5dfe8fdee3a183cedf2024d1b21e" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;github.com&#x2F;do-not-theme&#x2F;do-not-theme.github.io&#x2F;commi...</a><p>2. <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;github.com&#x2F;ubuntu&#x2F;yaru" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;github.com&#x2F;ubuntu&#x2F;yaru</a><p>3. <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;github.com&#x2F;vinceliuice&#x2F;vimix-gtk-themes" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;github.com&#x2F;vinceliuice&#x2F;vimix-gtk-themes</a>
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Legogris将近 6 年前
I couldn&#x27;t disagree more. If the user wants the intended experience, they will not apply a different theme for your app. The whole reason a user has applied a different theme on your app is because they <i>disagree with your choices</i> and that&#x27;s totally fine. What&#x27;s next, asking Mozilla to take down user style sheets and extensions that restyle web apps?<p>This article is antithetical to the whole cultural foundation that GNOME builds on, without which there would probably not be an open source desktop ecosystem to build apps for.<p>I strongly urge the authors to take in the arguments of the top comments and reevaluate their positions.<p>And you know what? The more you enable and facilitate customization, the better and richer will the options provided by the community be. I can see how the argument makes sense for <i>particular distributions</i> like Elementary OS and maybe Linux Mint that are aiming at a unified experience for novice users. I really hope other distro maintainers don&#x27;t pay attention.
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lousken将近 6 年前
Icon themes - should be more standardized, that&#x27;s true.<p>GTK stylesheets - mostly a problem of different GTK versions they&#x27;re made for, because GTK versioning is a mess.<p>App Icons - so what? I think most people like consistency - look at Windows 10 and its ~4years of development, it&#x27;s still a mess and if I had an option I&#x27;d switch right away<p>All in all I think the choice should be left on the user after distro install, use default gnome look by default and have an option to switch to another with a warning. I agree that devs shouldn&#x27;t have to deal with someones custom stylesheet issues.
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wheybags将近 6 年前
I honestly think we just need to have light and dark modes built in. If you want to modify the dark theme a bit, go ahead, but since the original dev knew the background should be dark and the foreground light, it should be OK. The problem is when people implicitly assume a light theme, but then use a dark one. If we could &quot;tag&quot; a theme as light or dark, a lot of this problem would go away.
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Pxtl将近 6 年前
I could see a very similar article written for &quot;please stop letting users resize the window&quot; or &quot;please stop letting users change font size&quot;
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jrockway将近 6 年前
Don&#x27;t release your software under a free software license if you don&#x27;t want redistributors to randomly add bugs. Just go work for Apple, or something.
NyashMyash将近 6 年前
Bullshit. I need dark theme and I don&#x27;t care about &quot;brands&quot; nor &quot;identity&quot;. Stop burning my eyes please.
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core1024将近 6 年前
I agree that changing default icons is sometimes confusing. The user have hard times finding an app. Especially apps like Geany, Firefox and VLC get so weird icons in some themes that you can&#x27;t visually confirm that this is the correct app.<p>I also agree that if you make an app screenshot&#x2F;tutorial it is better to use the default theme unless you are targeting users for specific distro.<p>However I see some flaws in Adwaita (the default GTK theme) and a lot other themes regarding the titlebars:<p>1. They are too tall for no obvious reason.<p>2. the most irritating thing is that it is very hard to tell the active window. I mean it is a bit lighter but that&#x27;s all.
eximius将近 6 年前
Okay, this is maybe more reasonable than I expected. I believe distros shipping non-default stylesheets are the target here? They seem to explicitly acknowledge users can do whatever they want.<p>&gt; If you like to tinker with your own system, that’s fine with us. However, if you change things like stylesheets and icons, you should be aware that you’re in unsupported territory. Any issues you encounter should be reported to the theme developer, not the app developer.<p>Which is a sentiment I can get behind. Telling distributors that they need to make it clear the styling might break things is not wholly unreasonable.
gmueckl将近 6 年前
Color themes seem like a brilliant idea until hit the point where your custom control needs this one extra distinct highlight or background color to convey state. Then you&#x27;re out of luck. You only have bad options left: opt out of system theming and enforce your own or hardcode a color (or put it into the settings dialog) and accept that it breaks with any non-default theme out there because no user will take time to look at the settings and fiddle with the colors. Either way, any usability benefit from good default themes (e.g. high contrast themes) is pretty much gone.
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jchw将近 6 年前
It’s weird how theming seems to have never been an issue for decades on KDE and KDE apps. It’s almost as though it’s a technology issue.
Avamander将近 6 年前
Yikes.<p>I&#x27;ll stop themeing apps and their icons once I don&#x27;t see a single piece of software that has an UI and an icon look like as it were made in the 90s, also implement dark theme. Providing a more consistent UI for new users on a distro is also better idea than leaving it up for the developers.<p>The GNOME back button being wrongly themed is solved by switching GNOME to dark mode (`gnome-tweak-tool`) and a dark theme. The engine isn&#x27;t the best but devs don&#x27;t make it easy either.
nycticorax将近 6 年前
I have a lot of sympathy for the signers of this letter. As Havoc Pennington (team lead of the GNOME 2 project) liked to point out, every option you provide to users has a cost to the developers in terms of testing and maintenance. Maybe a better way for the letter signers to communicate their position would be to simply say &quot;We don&#x27;t support nonstandard GNOME themes&quot;. Certainly, they&#x27;re within their rights to say this, and you&#x27;re within your rights to not use their apps if you don&#x27;t like it.<p>Another thing Havoc Pennington liked to talk about in developing GNOME 2 was &#x27;crack&#x27;. These were things in GNOME 1 that were bad for the community, but that a lot of users were addicted to. Like, for instance, an overabundance of user settings.<p>By all accounts, it&#x27;s hard to write a GUI app for the Linux desktop, in part because of the huge variety of distros and desktops, and apparently even themes within a single desktop. And as a user, my biggest complaint about desktop Linux is the relative paucity of high-quality applications. (Yes, I know there are many high-quality desktop Linux applications. But there aren&#x27;t as many as on Windows or MacOS.) I can&#x27;t help but wonder if most of the community wouldn&#x27;t be better off if a single distro, hopefully with a single desktop and a single theme, decisively &#x27;won&#x27; and claimed a dominant usage share of the Linux desktop. Then third-party developers would be incentivized to just develop for that distro, which might make the lives of both users and developers better in the long run.<p>And of course, since it&#x27;s open source, if &#x27;the one true distro&#x27; went off the rails eventually, someone else could fork it and become the new &#x27;one true distro&#x27;, with relatively little danger of vendor lock-in.
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code_duck将近 6 年前
It reminds me of how Reddit allows subs to put in their own stylesheets. Each sub can change the look, placement, and existence of just about every UI element. It makes for the most inconsistent interface I&#x27;ve ever seen for a website.
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elagost将近 6 年前
This is insane.<p>The issue&#x27;s primarily addressing distros and projects that ship their own GTK themes as default to users, like Ubuntu and Elementary and System76. My wife&#x27;s desktop runs Ubuntu, and if something doesn&#x27;t look right, she doesn&#x27;t even know she&#x27;s running something called GNOME - she just knows that the problem is with software (OS, desktop environment, kernel, video drivers, GTK style sheet, whatever).<p>Most people aren&#x27;t going to blame GNOME for broken style sheets, they&#x27;ll be blaming the creator of the style sheet, whether they know what GNOME and GTK is or not.
finchisko将近 6 年前
Electron app developers arise :). You don&#x27;t have distro theming issues, do you? :D<p>And now seriously. If linux developers turn away from native ui libs (like KDE or GNOME), this might be one of the reasons. The other option is specifically ban disrespectful distros in the license terms.<p>I strongly believe in freedom (but not as GNU - absolute user freedom). Freedom IMO should be on both sides. If app developers doesn&#x27;t want his&#x2F;her app to be themed, then we should respect that. Our freedom is too look somewhere else to satisfy our need.
traverseda将近 6 年前
It sounds like GTK theming is broken.
anotheryou将近 6 年前
Leave me my icons.<p>Meh about the in-app theming. Probably should not be bundled, but sadly most OSS ist lacking in the front-end and can really use some polish.
anoncake将近 6 年前
&gt; GTK Stylesheets can make applications look broken, and even unusable.<p>Bugs are bad, yes.<p>&gt; Icon Themes can change icon metaphors, leading to interfaces with icons that don’t express what the developer intended.<p>That is not a problem if you use icons for the purpose they are intended for.<p>&gt; Changing an app’s icon denies the developer the possibility to control their brand.<p>Good. My computer is not your billboard. Consistency is more important than your &quot;brand&quot;.<p>&gt; Appstream Screenshots (the screenshots used in GNOME Software or Flathub) are not very useful if they look nothing like the real app does once you install it.<p>&gt; User Help and Documentation are similarly useless if UI elements on your system are different from the ones described in the documentation.<p>Nonsense. Theming doesn&#x27;t affect the layout of a program. If people were that bad at abstraction, then how do they recognize they can sit on a metal chair if they are familiar with wooden ones?<p>&gt; They are built and tested for the upstream GNOME stylesheet, icons, and fonts, so that’s what they should look like on peoples’ systems.<p>No. They should look like the user chooses them to look. One way for the user to express their choice is to choose a distribution whose theme they like.<p>&gt; Changing third-party apps without any QA is reckless, and would be unacceptable on any other platform.<p>∀x. x without any QA is reckless.
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taosx将近 6 年前
As an end user I never had any of the mentioned users. On some rare occasions when the state of my distro was probably too unique, I had some problems, but that&#x27;s why I use linux.
huxflux将近 6 年前
Don&#x27;t theme, well then start to hire&#x2F;team along with proper designers then (graphical&#x2F;UI&#x2F;UX).
thanatos_dem将近 6 年前
Please make Linux apps less ugly. The visual design is always a decade behind mainstream OSes.
emilfihlman将近 6 年前
&gt;App Icons are the identity of an app. Changing an app’s icon denies the developer the possibility to control their brand.<p>Yeah so, this is bullshit. Why would anyone have any say what my computer looks like.
coleifer将近 6 年前
The gnome&#x2F;gtk team introduces breaking changes to the styles and themes <i>all the time</i>. I think this is misplaced outrage.<p>One of the things I like most about gtk apps is the ability to theme them to achieve a uniform look across all my apps. I would rather use a slightly less functional gtk app than a qt&#x2F;kde thing for this reason.<p>Users who care enough to mess with themes by necessity accept that sometimes things may need some tweaking. Most popular themes are on gh and have responsive maintainers who are invested in their themes looking good&#x2F;uniform. The burden should be placed on the theme maintainers and the users who choose to use non-default configuration, rather than disabling themes on an ad-hoc basis.
faissaloo将近 6 年前
On the contrary, I think GNOME allows people too much freedom to theme and it opens the system up to really broken theming. One of the things I love about Serenity OS is that it has one simple theming engine so everything looks the way you&#x27;d expect between applications.
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781将近 6 年前
Write the app in Electron. Problem solved. No more OS overriding your look.
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swiley将近 6 年前
This guy probably would have gotten an actual discussion if he had worded his argument a little more friendly.