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Russ Cox’s response to “Go Is Not a Community Driven Project”

198 点作者 f2f将近 6 年前

20 条评论

tptacek将近 6 年前
I 100% believe everything Russ Cox says here and don&#x27;t think it will make a whit of difference on HN and Reddit.<p>Keeping as constant Go&#x27;s opinionated (for better&#x2F;worse) management philosophy, I don&#x27;t think there&#x27;s anything the Go team can say to put this criticism to bed. It&#x27;s simple: Rails can be &quot;omakase&quot; because Basecamp is a tiny company, and Go can&#x27;t be (without gripes) because Google is a big company. Hell, it wasn&#x27;t even clear a few weeks ago whether Clojure was allowed to gripe-free &quot;omakase&quot; status, and hardly anyone on HN has even heard of Rich Hickey&#x27;s company.<p>Since, short of drastically changing how the project is managed --- something I don&#x27;t think many Go users have an appetite for --- there&#x27;s nothing they can do rhetorically to shut the argument down, I think it&#x27;s best ignored.<p>If you don&#x27;t want to use a project affiliated with Google, don&#x27;t code in Go. Similarly, if you want to have large solo impact on core features of a language platform, like package management, set your sites somewhere other than Go, where fairly intensive gatekeeping to that kind of stuff is widely considered a feature, not a bug.
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rmrfrmrf将近 6 年前
Not sure what to make of this. All of the points the author makes are obvious; <i>of course</i> a project originated at Google would have a majority-Google membership. <i>Of course</i> anyone is free to fork Go. <i>Of course</i> the code can be considered FOSS. <i>Of course</i> execs at Google couldn&#x27;t care less about spec details. None of those things disprove the point that Go is <i>not</i> a community-driven project.<p>I think I&#x27;ve mentioned this a while back, but one only needs to look to the Guava library team to see what Google&#x27;s general position is on community contribution: contributors need not apply. The maintainers there blogged at-length about the inferiority of non-Googlers and the tedium of dealing with the unwashed masses -- typical NIH syndrome -- this is the same philosophy that the Go team is influenced by, perhaps with only a less hostile tone.<p>The difference between an OpenJDK and an OpenGo project, in practice, would be that the two would be completely unrelated. Go core would go on ignoring community progress and, at best, Google would sue for the project to change the name and force a hard fork.
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Lazare将近 6 年前
His comments are fine, but don&#x27;t engage with any of the criticism or concrete points others have made. The &quot;Go Is Not a Community Driven Project&quot; post really dug into detail how, in a specific case, Go did not behave as a community driven project, and it was made very clear that Go was Google&#x27;s language, not the communities.<p>Responding with, in essence, &quot;but we love the community!&quot; is great, and probably true, but...unless it&#x27;s followed up by &quot;...and that&#x27;s why we feel so badly about the previous events, and have made these specific changes&quot; (or at the minimum a rebuttal of the specific criticisms), it doesn&#x27;t really....mean anything?<p>Keep in mind, the closest we&#x27;ve got to introspection from Cox about the modules issue was a &quot;I&#x27;m sorry everyone else is upset, I must have not explained things well enough&quot; non-apology. Which is fine! The Go team doesn&#x27;t need to apologise for running their language development process however they see fit...but it does underscore the issue.<p>Fundamentally, a decent chunk of the Go community thinks that the modules process was <i>fundamentally broken</i>, and the Go team thinks the modules process was <i>fundamentally fine</i>. I would interpret the subtext of Cox&#x27;s post as &quot;we really wish the community would be fine with the process&quot;. No doubt.<p>Finally, there&#x27;s something a bit patronising about this:<p>&gt; I spent a while trying to work out what I want to say about the general theme of Go and open source, but in the end I realized that my talk at Gophercon 2015 is a better articulation of what open source means for Go, and what Google&#x27;s role is, than any email I can write in a few hours today. You can read the blog post version, “Go, Open Source, Community,” at <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;blog.golang.org&#x2F;open-source" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;blog.golang.org&#x2F;open-source</a>, and I am including a copy below. I reread it this morning, and I still believe everything I said then.<p>The current discussion is about events <i>after</i> 2015, by people who are well aware of that talk. If people are questioning how the Go team is interacting with the community even <i>after</i> that talk, then maybe it isn&#x27;t sufficient, and you need to do more than just tell everyone to read it again?
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geodel将近 6 年前
From the response:<p>&quot;..I&#x27;ve noticed that people often use the term “the Go community” without being particularly clear about what they mean. To me, the Go community is all Go users, which is at least a million people at this point. As such, it&#x27;s at the very least imprecise to say things like “the Go community wants (or did) X.”<p>I think this is important because some outspoken members seems to have tendency to claim that they represent whole community and they must be heard and responded to even at the cost of quiet community members.
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SpaceManNabs将近 6 年前
I don&#x27;t use Go much to have an actual opinion on this. I actually like Go because I built my data science blog on top of it (learned a bit of CSS and html along the way).<p>But I think the final paragraph of this post only serves to highlight an issue brought up in the original post by Mr. Siebenmann.<p>The rebuttal says:<p>&quot;There are certainly senses in which Go is Google&#x27;s language: it was created at Google, Google continues to fund most of the development, and a few people at Google are the final deciders about the language itself.&quot;<p>I understand that the language can be owned by Google and the community, but the original take was:<p>&quot;You could ask if Go is Google&#x27;s language or the Go core team&#x27;s language, since Go&#x27;s direction is set and controlled by that small core team. However, at the moment I believe that most or all of the active Go core team is employed by Google, making the distinction impossibly to determine in practice (at least from outside Google). In practice we&#x27;ll only get a chance to find out who Go really belongs to if Go core team members start leaving Google and try to remain active in determining Go&#x27;s direction.&quot;<p>Seems like the rebuttal&#x27;s concluding statement doesn&#x27;t really address the biggest concerns.<p>The rebuttal continues to say that the development team tries to work with the community when possible. The original discussion here on HackerNews brought up examples where that is not always the case. I don&#x27;t think a BDFL or a team acting as BDFL is a bad thing inherently, but I don&#x27;t think this rebuttal really talks to the issues.<p>I once wanted to build a bunch of ML tools for Golang. Like coding up UMAP or other dimensionality reduction techniques, introducing some variational techniques, etc. But the package manager situation at the time (I thought of doing this 2 years ago) scared me off!<p>edit: I thought about this and did form a slight opinion on this article only. If we were to change the opening and concluding paragraph only (and retain the rest of the contents), it should have been titled &quot;Go is Google&#x27;s Language, and that is ok!&quot; And then added a paragraph on how Google possibly abandoning the project wouldn&#x27;t cripple it.
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lgleason将近 6 年前
The mental gymnastics here...<p>Go is just like many Google projects and Google &quot;community&quot; programs. They are basically a way to get free labor while benefiting Google first and foremost. That is a philosophy that goes right up to the top. Yes others benefit from the free software, and by fixing something you might be scratching your own itch, but if you invest any unpaid time towards developing for it you need to understand the Google controls everything (unless you fork it).<p>If you get on the wrong side of the Google activists, they will use the COC to invent a reason to kick you out of the main project. Some of Google&#x27;s &quot;community&quot; programs are not as subtle about things. IE: The Google Developer Expert program in these &quot;community&quot; technologies such as Angular, Android etc. require the unpaid developer experts to sign non-disparagement agreements with Google while in exchange only getting a little bit of notoriety and a few comped trips and tickets to events...and of course Google is the gate keeper for it. The GDG program is even more flagrant. Each chapter is &quot;independent&quot; and has to raise their own money for things, but then Google tips the scales by throwing money towards programs that shill certain Google products. Google also has guidelines on how you market etc. things and is able to be a gate keeper on who is and isn&#x27;t and organizer etc..<p>Many of the Google &quot;community&quot; &quot;open source&quot; packages are first only released to people under NDA&#x27;s. I&#x27;ve seen this happen a few times with the some of the Android libraries etc..<p>Does that mean that Go is bad? No, in the same way that proprietary technologies are not bad. The key is understanding the truth from the propaganda.
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coldtea将近 6 年前
&gt;<i>There are certainly senses in which Go is Google&#x27;s language: it was created at Google, Google continues to fund most of the development, and a few people at Google are the final deciders about the language itself. But I disagree with the “not ours:” I think Go is also the Go community&#x27;s language.</i><p>Well, not if people in the Go community can&#x27;t be promoted to be among &quot;the final deciders about the language itself&quot; without also being hired by Google.<p>Sure, the community is 1 million people. Nobody expects 1 million people to vote for Go&#x27;s design and features.<p>But each language community develops prominent members, which for Go can be outside of Google too. E.g. like JS had Resig and Askenash, or Java had the various Java Apache project leads, Yoda time, etc people, or like Python has Kenneth Reitz, Armin Ronacher, the Twisted&#x2F;Tornado guys and co. And some major projects, modules, etc, eventually emerge.<p>If those people can&#x27;t get their (widely adopted by many in the community) proposals and changes into the language, and don&#x27;t get the chance to be core team, them it&#x27;s not a community language.
kstenerud将近 6 年前
Yes, Google effectively has final say over what goes into golang; that&#x27;s never going to change. But then again, the same could be said of the cadres of people managing other languages. At the end of the day, SOMEONE has to be in charge, and that someone probably isn&#x27;t you.<p>I personally like to have strong leadership behind such fundamental things as languages. I may not agree with all of their decisions, but at least I can count on the stability, which we all need in order to collaborate successfully. With strong leadership, I know I we won&#x27;t have another Python2 vs Python3 mess.<p>And the ability to fork is very handy. I&#x27;ve forked my own golang compiler to allow warnings for unused imports, variables, etc [1] because I don&#x27;t like fighting the compiler during debug or exploratory coding sessions.<p>[1] <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;github.com&#x2F;kstenerud&#x2F;go" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;github.com&#x2F;kstenerud&#x2F;go</a>
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brudgers将近 6 年前
I don&#x27;t know what &quot;a community driven project&quot; means because it doesn&#x27;t use technical terms. The established technical concepts are stakeholders, consensus, and standardization. Go has clearly delineated stakeholders. These are few relative to Go&#x27;s broader user base. Not being stakeholders, the broader user base is excluded from Go&#x27;s consensus process. Go&#x27;s stakeholders do not appear to value standardization of the language.<p>None of this is inherently bad or good.
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nixpulvis将近 6 年前
The fact I needed to log into google to view this seems ironic either way.
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didibus将近 6 年前
I think one interesting aspect is to think what would happen if Ken Thompson and Rob Pike and the other original creators and active maintainers left Google?<p>And say, they still wanted to lead the project? Even though they no longer work? Could they? Or would Google appoint new people, and maybe Go would lose its magic?<p>I guess that&#x27;s the difference between run by one or a few BDFLs and run by Google?
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nullwasamistake将近 6 年前
Google does with all corporate sponsored projects. Most non-Google commiters just submitted simple bug fixes, most or all core maintainers are Google employees.<p>It&#x27;s this way with every Google OSS project I know of. Guava, Angular, AMP, Chrome, Android, Tensorflow, gRPC. Sometimes they even de-facto take over existing projects, like Square&#x27;s Dagger DI.<p>Google has no open source governance model unlike Apache, the chaos that is Linux or rust, or even Java&#x27;s JCP. Since a fork is so expensive to maintain over time, many of these projects are open source only in name. Google invests enough money to keep anyone from forking. Pennies for them compared to the huge marketshare they get for having massive &quot;safe&quot; OSS projects that companies won&#x27;t worry about adopting.
gerbilly将近 6 年前
If it’s so community driven, then why does this issue resonate so much?<p>It seems like we will never hear the end of the apologias about how open Go is.<p>To me that betrays that it’s exactly the opposite.<p>I use Go, it’s useful, but i do so with a bad taste in my mouth: like someone’s stubborn opinions are being forced upon me.
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merlincorey将近 6 年前
It seems the bulk of the rebuttal is a reposting of Russ&#x27; blog post from 2015 &quot;Go, Open Source, Community&quot; found here: <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;blog.golang.org&#x2F;open-source" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;blog.golang.org&#x2F;open-source</a><p>I was hoping that this would address the package management fiasco, but it did not.
atombender将近 6 年前
As an aside, since the discussion mentions trademarking, whatever happened to the new branding announced [1] a year ago? The logo (which they did trademark, along with the name &quot;Go&quot;) is also still not in use. The design wasn&#x27;t received so well by the community, so did Google perhaps change their minds?<p>[1] <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;blog.golang.org&#x2F;go-brand" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;blog.golang.org&#x2F;go-brand</a>
falsedan将近 6 年前
Love how people from the big org that controls the project keep insisting that it&#x27;s community driven, instead of members of the community
duxup将近 6 年前
Is the concern here that if Google chooses to move on from Go that much or all of the leadership might too?
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dumpsterdiver将近 6 年前
This brings to mind an excerpt from the movie &#x27;The Aviator (2004)&#x27;:<p>Senator: &quot;Mr. Mayer works for you, does he not?&quot;<p>Mr. Hughes: &quot;He does.&quot;<p>Senator: &quot;And what is his official title?&quot;<p>Mr. Hughes: &quot;Well I don&#x27;t exactly know, Senator. A lot of people work for me.&quot;<p>Senator: &quot;Explain why your press agent would pay out $170,000 to representatives of the United States Air Force.&quot;<p>Mr. Hughes: &quot;Well I don&#x27;t know, I suppose you&#x27;d have to ask him, Senator.&quot;<p>Senator: &quot;Well would you produce him?&quot;<p>Mr. Hughes: &quot;Produce him?&quot;<p>Senator: &quot;Will you cause him to appear?&quot;<p>Mr. Hughes: &quot;Senator, you had John Mayer on the stand for three days last week.&quot;<p>Senator: &quot;Well be that as it may, we would like him to reappear. Would you ask him to return?&quot;<p>Mr. Hughes: (long pause) &quot;No, I don&#x27;t think I will.&quot;<p>Senator: &quot;Will you try to have him appear?&quot;<p>Mr. Hughes: &quot;No, I don&#x27;t think I&#x27;ll try.&quot;<p>Senator: &quot;You don&#x27;t think you&#x27;ll try...&quot;<p>Mr. Hughes: &quot;No... I don&#x27;t think so.&quot;<p>In other words, go fork yourself, Senator.
gnu8将近 6 年前
After all the drama surrounding the bureaucratic paralysis and legal encumberment of Java, I wouldn&#x27;t touch another corporate language with a ten foot pole. Let Go Die.
sheeshkebab将近 6 年前
Google should at least relicense Go under Apache 2 to clarify the uncertainty.
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