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The charm of buying old workstation hardware on the cheap

235 点作者 artsandsci将近 6 年前

45 条评论

fnord77将近 6 年前
The power consumption of some of these old workstations is obscene. There&#x27;s probably some optimal intersection between cost of the computer and the cost of power consumption.<p>an older macbook pro (2012ish) gives 12,000 on the MT benchmark and only draws what, 85w?<p>the author briefly touches on this, but unless you get free electricity, this is a bigger issue than presented.
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adrianN将近 6 年前
If you want a loud computer that consumes ten times as much electricity as it should, then an old Xean Workstation might be for you. Personally I prefer buying old Thinkpads. They&#x27;re cheap, fast enough, and their electricity consumption is decent.
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PascLeRasc将近 6 年前
I&#x27;ve been doing this for years, &quot;upgrading&quot; every 6 months when I find a new machine being thrown away. In the past year I did this with a 2006 Mac Pro and a 2013 System76 desktop. Both of these machines were a delight to work on - I was able to get 16gb of DDR2 ECC RAM and 2 quad-core Xeons for the Mac Pro for around $28 total on ebay. The Mac Pro could be flashed up to a 2007 model and ran El Capitan perfectly with a cheap no-name SSD off Amazon. It took a GTX 760 with some odd power adapters and it was a fantastic machine to do audio editing and playing with tensorflow-gpu on.<p>The System76 machine was a little more modern, with a Haswell i7, and after a new aftermarket cooler, fresh thermal paste, and another no-name SSD it ran Manjaro silently, even with Bazel putting it under some serious load.<p>I&#x27;m moving soon, so I sold both machines for around $350 each. It&#x27;s a fun challenge, since usually these computers don&#x27;t see modifications or have as good documentation as enthusiast PC parts, so you&#x27;ll find a tiny community in some obscure forum sharing supported CPU upgrades, how to change out the cooler, stuff like that. Highly recommend it.
mbell将近 6 年前
Meh, these old systems can be fun to tinker with but are _slow_.<p>E5-2667v2 vs i9-9900k the i9 is 60% faster single core, 44% faster multi-core (both are 8c16t). At lot of use cases, including the majority of development work for most people, is still dominated by single core performance so you&#x27;re giving up a lot performance to save a couple bucks. The power draw on these server&#x2F;workstation systems will likely also suck which will offset some of the $ savings.
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dashesyan将近 6 年前
You&#x27;re giving away my secrets! I&#x27;ve bought 3 of these types of HP workstations over the years, starting with a Z210 with a Xeon E3-1240. I added a graphics card to make it a super budget gaming PC.<p>My most recent one is an HP Z420 workstation with 128GB of ECC memory, an 8-core Xeon, and Win10 Pro installed for $620 delivered. Benchmarks of the CPU show its comparable to a Ryzen 1700X in single and multi core, but I really bought it for the RAM. It&#x27;s a great machine for homelab-type virtualization.
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Yizahi将近 6 年前
This will work if you are located in big western city. He bought his Z420 for 50$, and when I check ebay right now they are going for 150-300$ + 100-200$ shipping. And that with E5-1603 CPU, not the E5-2667 or similar. Lets say I have 5 year old AMD FX-8350 due to upgrade this year. That Xeon is actually slower, looking at some basic benchmarks (of course it may be faster in some, but I don&#x27;t have time for detailed investigation). So ~300$ total for a sidegrade? And that not including hassle with shipping, maybe dealing with scammer seller from ebay, then import tax 30% (and who knows how base price will be calculated at customs). Etc. etc. Not worth it.<p>I&#x27;m not saying that upgrading for cheap is bad of course, but getting stuff like described in the article is borderline lottery win in most of the countries. You can&#x27;t depend on it or plan in advance.
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skunkworker将近 6 年前
I would add another negative to the list from personal experience. About a year ago I built a used server dual Xeon home server with e5-2680v2s. Now the pass mark scores per chip are about 15,000 but the power draw overall can get quite high. If you’re in an area with more expensive kwh I would recommend looking into something like a threadripper or a more efficient and newer cpu.
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ken将近 6 年前
Every comment here so far is about power consumption, which is mentioned in the article:<p>&gt; And there are also considerations here from the perspective of power consumption. A big box that’s always plugged in will inevitably use more power than a tiny laptop, even if the big box can do a lot more.<p>[...]<p>&gt; But if you can make the case for it, it might be worth your time. In my case, I was looking to have more of a desktop experience for times when I wanted slightly more horsepower than a laptop, and I also wanted a machine that could do virtualization when needed or desired.
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deadfece将近 6 年前
On a vastly more practical note, check out JDM_WAAAT&#x27;s site <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.serverbuilds.net&#x2F;" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.serverbuilds.net&#x2F;</a> . They&#x27;re more piecemeal parts list, but he has a very reasoned approach to select parts that deliver value&#x2F;performance at their price point, and are available at the selected price in sufficient quantities.
cr0sh将近 6 年前
I&#x27;ve looked into this kind of thing in the past, but there was always something that made me shy away, despite the prices being relatively favorable.<p>Most of the time, I think it was a worry of &quot;if the power supply dies&quot; - because usually, these workstations have a very proprietary PSU, which can sometimes be difficult to source, and when you find one, the price can be nothing short of insane.<p>Then there was RAM - most of the time, you needed ECC RAM, and that stuff could be expensive if you wanted to push the system to its maximum config. Of course, this was years ago, maybe things have changed in the market?<p>Last was the potential noise and heat factors. I once had a Core2Duo that I dropped in a 8800 GTX (or something like that) - and while the noise wasn&#x27;t bothersome, the heat output was something else. But I do know what a server fan system sounds like, and I&#x27;d worry about a workstation having that same kind of jet-engine experience.<p>So I never pulled the trigger, so to speak.<p>Today, I&#x27;ve been almost going the direct opposite direction.<p>I&#x27;ve got on my &quot;list of things to repair&#x2F;build&quot; a TRS-80 Model 100 (portable), an old Toughbook C29 to refresh, and I&#x27;m contemplating building a custom &quot;cyberdeck&quot;, using a variety of different parts and components (probably an ESP-32 coupled to an Arduino Nano, with the Nano acting as a keyboard interface, because the keyboard isn&#x27;t off-the-shelf, it&#x27;s from a toy computer, the ESP will probably drive some kind of GLCD, then custom firmware, etc for everything else - not really a practical system, but probably more fun).
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galkk将近 6 年前
I bought once Supermicro workstation (dual Xeon 2680), and it was LOUD. Even when shut down, the fans were still making noise, so I&#x27;ve had a habit of turning it off from power to make it silent.<p>While the idea looked appealing at the beginning (dual CPU, 64GB RAM, great cable management), at the end I&#x27;ve decided that it doesn&#x27;t justify the cost and hassle. Plus sometimes there were very funny issues - for example to run Rocksmith you needed to manually set affinity on windows to run it on only one CPU. After upgrading to last gen Thinkpad extreme it feels that Thinkpad even does 4k rendering faster.
robbyt将近 6 年前
Old xeons are hot, and power hungry.<p>My monthly electric bill decreased by nearly $10 after replacing my 2010 MacPro with a 2018 MacMini.
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h9n将近 6 年前
Great article. It expresses ideas similar to Game &amp; Watch and GameBoy creator Gunpei Yokoi&#x27;s philosophy of Lateral Thinking of Withered Technology.[0]<p>&gt; Yokoi said, &quot;The Nintendo way of adapting technology is not to look for the state of the art but to utilize mature technology that can be mass-produced cheaply.&quot;<p>&gt; &quot;Withered technology&quot; in this context refers to a mature technology which is cheap and well understood. &quot;Lateral thinking&quot; refers to finding radical new ways of using such technology.<p>When designing the GameBoy, Yokoi realised that the older, simpler Z80 processor would just as well serve the purpose of making fun handheld games as the more contemporary options would (and one might argue that the limitations of the machine forced game developers to be more creative than they might have otherwise). Likewise with the monochromatic display.<p>The GameBoy was cheaper to manufacture and buy, more well-understood by developers, and crucially, much more power efficient than its several competitors. And it killed them.<p>[0]: <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;en.wikipedia.org&#x2F;wiki&#x2F;Gunpei_Yokoi#Lateral_Thinking_with_Withered_Technology" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;en.wikipedia.org&#x2F;wiki&#x2F;Gunpei_Yokoi#Lateral_Thinking_...</a>
robohoe将近 6 年前
Yeah, that&#x27;s a no from me. Who would want another massive heat-generative, power-hungry desktop&#x2F;server humming along in their home office as their main workstation?<p>Now if I were to build a home lab, heck yeah I would jump on board. A couple of those systems would make a real nice private cloud.
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hambursa将近 6 年前
Used to run an older Xeon system I picked for free as home server&#x2F;workstation. Now you can pick up 8c16t Ryzens pretty cheap and they even support ECC on cheap consumer motherboards, so unless you get used Xeon for literally next to nothing, you may want to consider other alternatives. There&#x27;s also the fact that recently more and more vulnerabilities have been discovered in Intel products, which makes Xeon much less attractive platform.
chapium将近 6 年前
It may feel a bit anachronistic at times, but learning terminal based apps is a good way to beat the cycle of upgrades. Many tasks are not all that complex, and they don&#x27;t need recent hardware to perform well.
Johnny555将近 6 年前
I used to love upgrading my home desktop, I&#x27;d research specs, figure out the best price&#x2F;performance and upgrade components regularly (motherboard, CPU, hard drive, etc).<p>But now that most of my computer time is spent in a web browser (most of my coding is done at work so I rarely even run an IDE at home), I&#x27;m happy with my 5 year old laptop.<p>I built a nice 8 core Xeon desktop about 4 years ago, but haven&#x27;t powered it on at all in at least the past 2 years, I moved a year ago and haven&#x27;t even taken it out of the box, it&#x27;s still sitting beside the computer desk.
mNovak将近 6 年前
I like to do this with laptops -- you can get a few years old maxed out Dell Latitudes, Thinkpads etc on ebay for 80% off. These outperform a standard new $800 laptop easily, though obviously you pay in sleekness&#x2F;weight (mine is 90% stationary so I don&#x27;t much care).
heelix将近 6 年前
Funny story. Back in when my Bride and I lived in a single bedroom compartment, she looked at my small stack of computers and said &quot;why don&#x27;t you get one big one&quot;?<p>Later that month, I was shopping at the Lockheed Martin outlet&#x2F;surplus store, and spied a lovely Sun 3&#x2F;280 in a 8&#x27;, 19&quot; rackmount for $25. I could not resist, much to her dismay as the refrigerator sized chassis got home. The original hardware hosting a threadripper in the case of theseus.
elagost将近 6 年前
The arguments about power consumption only apply to a specific set of old workstation CPUs. You can buy old hardware that isn&#x27;t super inefficient. I bought an HP EliteDesk tower on the cheap ($150) last year that had a i7-4790 (an all-around great CPU) and is super quiet. With a lower-power GPU in it (nvidia 1030) it&#x27;s even decent for light games or video decoding. I&#x27;ve not directly measured the power consumption, but it&#x27;s not nearly the monster these old Xeons can be.<p>The main point, from what I gather, is that you can buy older hardware that&#x27;s just as powerful as something you&#x27;d buy today, but you get the benefit of better repairability, cheap replacement parts, and saving a bunch of plastic from the trash. I don&#x27;t see the need for buying brand-new hardware when the old stuff works just fine. (My main machine is a 6-year-old Thinkpad)
ahelwer将近 6 年前
I was given an HP Z230 workstation when I started at Microsoft five years ago and haven&#x27;t upgraded since then, despite being well beyond eligible for a hardware refresh. It has 32 GB of RAM and an (edit) 4-core 8-thread i7-4770, plus an OS SSD with several data HDDs (integrated graphics, but meh).<p>CPU performance has been basically stagnant for the past half-decade. Even on my home PC (purchased around the same time) the only thing I&#x27;ve changed is the graphics card - and that was to sell it for a less-powerful one, then buy back the original card years later for cheap! Maybe if you want to play games on the cutting edge of VR then constant upgrades are necessary, but five-year-old desktop hardware should be fine for nearly anyone.
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Obsnold将近 6 年前
Perhaps someone here can give me a bit of advice. I&#x27;ve been undecided on whether to buy a refurbished workstation for a while now. I do a lot of aosp builds for some of my clients and on my current setup it can take 3 or 4 hours for a clean build. I&#x27;ve been looking at various builds on <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.bargainhardware.co.uk&#x2F;" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.bargainhardware.co.uk&#x2F;</a> For about £1500 to £2000. If anyone has any experience or advice it would be greatly appreciated.
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w_s_l将近 6 年前
For one I would love to have an SGI workstation, I still have CG magazines from this era and its plastered everywhere in the ads, and I&#x27;m still amazed at the graphic output (so smooth) and what we had in the 90s.<p><a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.youtube.com&#x2F;watch?v=ZDxLa6P6exc" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.youtube.com&#x2F;watch?v=ZDxLa6P6exc</a><p>I&#x27;d imagine something like this would&#x27;ve been used to make Crash Bandicoot and likes. It&#x27;d be really interesting to play games built on this thing.
mrbill将近 6 年前
It&#x27;s not just workstation hardware - I&#x27;ve recently bought a couple of Dell T410s off eBay for $125 each (shipped!). Quad-core Xeon E5620s, 4G RAM, 6-bay hotswap chassis, DVD-ROM, iDRAC 6 Enterprise, PERC 6i RAID card.<p>Upgrades: $25 for 120G SSD (boot drive, goes in the empty second 5.25&quot; bay), $27 for 16G RAM, $20ish for an E5670 6-core CPU, $35 for an LSI HBA in IT-mode (supports &gt;2T drives), $10 for a set of SFF-8087 cables to go from the HBA to the existing hotswap backplane. 30-45 minutes to upgrade all the firmware for the DRAC, lifecycle controller, BIOS, etc.<p>Grand total of around $250 for a really nice server with full remote management, and for the cost of another E5670 and a Dell heatsink I can upgrade to dual-CPU (12 cores&#x2F;24 threads).<p>They&#x27;re so cheap that I&#x27;ve gotten two systems to upgrade as described, and this morning ordered a third (yet again $125) to have for spare parts.<p>The eBay vendor emailed me and offered to sell me a pallet of 24 for $80 each, but I don&#x27;t have that kind of need or money lying around...<p>As for laptops, I tend to get refurb&#x2F;off-lease Thinkpads from arrowdirect.com (coupon code ARROW gives 15% off), then max out the (cheap DDR3) RAM and throw a SSD in where the HD was. I&#x27;ve built up a T420s and an X230 like this for when I need a decent portable machine but don&#x27;t want to take my expensive Macbook Pro somewhere. For the T420s I even got a $50 adapter board from a guy in China that let me put a FHD IPS screen in, instead of the 1440x900 TN LCD that it came with...
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aloer将近 6 年前
In late 2017 I built myself a threadripper based workstation for ~5000$ with a 1950x, 64gb ECC (can fit up to 128), a single 1080 ti, single NVMe drive and two 8tb HDDs. The system was designed to allow for more HDDs (case space and thermal capacity, 8 should fit easily), 4 GPUs and durable enough so that I can wrap it up and ship it around the world if needed (The whole thing weighs ~18kg with a single GPU. Whether shipping a PC is a good idea or not I have yet to find out)<p>Threadripper was still 1000$ + motherboard for 300$. And RAM was at all time high with 750$ for 64gb ECC.<p>Because of this price tag I considered getting a used xeon, but looking at the total I probably would have only saved less than 1000$, or 20%, perhaps 100-200$ more due to used RAM for a total of 24%. That percentage saving is much lower than expected.<p>Other factors:<p>The cpu mentioned in the article has 40 PCIe lanes vs. 60 in threadripper and I figured more lanes is better should I ever put in all 4 GPUs. This seems to more or less not matter though. Something learned since then.<p>Better energy efficiency (newer processor and better PSU), more control over heat and noise (assumption, I have 6 quiet fans in there), more lanes (although near useless for GPUs apparently), more room for storage (8-12 drives possible), GPUs (4 possible) and simply all parts new with warranty for 20-24% more<p>This is very use case specific of course and there might be better used systems available as well but I would probably do it again. The savings were less than I initially thought and that was at an all time high for RAM prices and the first generation of threadrippers, should be even less now. What I should have done differently is use it more often, but that&#x27;s a different story.<p>-&gt; The expensive parts are storage, GPU and high quality case&#x2F;PSU&#x2F;fans. If you want to build your first workstation, storage and GPUs should be bought separately anyways. But if you don&#x27;t need them or already have those from a different system, a used xeon sounds interesting. You still probably save less than expected though, over the years with less warranty, more power draw and more work necessary (which can be fun! not denying that)<p>(Yes the linked article is about home computer, not workstation. This is a different scenario. I figured it&#x27;s nonetheless relevant for some)
gravypod将近 6 年前
If a lot of HN users were interested it would be cool if someone could organize group-buys of these types of hardware. Usually buying old hardware (for super cheap) is limited by volume and most sellers aren&#x27;t willing to ship something. If someone removed those pains and hand-picked &quot;worth it&quot; (for the home&#x2F;small business server lab) items it would be something a few people might be interested in.
whalesalad将近 6 年前
This stuff is fun to do but it’s not s magic bullet. The title would be better named “why your next home computer <i>could</i> be an old Xeon workstation”<p>These older machines use way more power. Modern stuff is far more quiet and can do a lot more with less heat and sound.<p>I have a dual Xeon 2U here at home w&#x2F; 48Gb Of Ram, redundant power supplies etc... it’s awesome. But it’s not even remotely close to being as performant as my new MacBook Pro.
glaurung_将近 6 年前
My gaming desktop right now is actually an old Dell Precision tower with a third gen i7 that I got for $140 off eBay. I swapped out the PSU, upped the ram to 16gb, added an SSD I had laying around, and replaced the Quadro GPU with a 1060. In all it cost me about $350 and comfortably runs every game I own. Power draw isn&#x27;t too much of a concern since it isn&#x27;t used too often.
louwrentius将近 6 年前
For what it&#x27;s worth: I keep my computers &#x2F; servers off all the time. When I need them I use Wake-On-Lan to remotely turn them on when needed.<p>Even my power hungry 71TB NAS is off 99% of the time and only turned on when needed. Saving me 150-200 Watt idle power usage.<p>If you don&#x27;t need your stuff to be on 24&#x2F;7 you can buy older more power-hungry stuff as long as you turn it off when done.
hermitdev将近 6 年前
Takes me back. I bought a used Dell workstation for a few hundred bucks. Was pretty bare, basically case, power supply and motherboard. At the time, it was the only motherboard I was aware of that supported dual socket CPUs and AGP graphics. Even though I bought it used, Dell support was willing to help me out debugging why it wouldn&#x27;t boot (something to due with a mismatch between the CPU power control units - I think that&#x27;s what they were called- with a dual P4 Xeon setup). For the workstation, it was pretty damned affordable for what I got. The kick in the jaw was that it took RDRAM. To put in 1.5 GB of RAM doubled the cost of the build, easily. Few years later when I was an FTE, and no longer in school, dropped a couple of grand USD to upgrade the RAM to 3 GB. That was circa 2005. Great workstation, but boy was that RDRAM expensive...
milesdyson_phd将近 6 年前
Oh hey, I have an old z420 that I picked up off of ebay that I use as a hypervisor. It had running for a few years and worked great for what I was using it for. I replaced it earlier this year with a mini-itx ryzen based system, because I didn&#x27;t want the tower in my office anymore.
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yardie将近 6 年前
I don&#x27;t find any of these workstations really interesting. They are all the same x86_64 architecture so just getting the latest and greatest puts you leagues ahead.<p>I find the really old workstations to be way more interesting. You rarely see a MIPS, Sparc, PA-RISC anymore. Once the CPU wars were over (Intel won, btw) you could get old SGI supercomputers, DEC Alphas, Sun Sparcstations, and NeXT Turbo Cubes for almost nothing. My very first website was run from an Alpha workstation on NetBSD under my dorm room bed.<p>They were power hungry, not state of the art, and sometimes quirky to use (Irix Motif comes to mind) but they were a blast.
cptnapalm将近 6 年前
The family machine is a 2009 Mac Pro with dual hex core processors, 48 gigs of RAM and 2 low watt video cards running Ubuntu. It does multiseat like a champ: one side was playing Hitman (2016) while the other was doing Tomb Raider (2013). I had been wanting to do multiseat for about a decade. In addition to using it remotely with ssh, I have guacamole on it, connecting to GDM so I can if I need to get to my desktop through a web browser. Total cost was about $600. I&#x27;m very much enjoying it.
alkonaut将近 6 年前
We’re in a 5-10 year plateau where buying yesterday’s machines dorsn’t cost much performance, at least for CPUs.<p>If you bought a 5 year old computer in 2011 you’d be buying last gen stuff. But in 2019 even the sandy bridge (2012) intel processors aren’t that bad. Obviously you are paying with <i>power</i> because you’ll buy a 2 or 4 way system to compensate, but if you use it just a few hours per day it’s a steal.
dade_将近 6 年前
If the noise factor isn&#x27;t a concern. For me it is, so I&#x27;ll stick to Intel NUCs (until a good AMD alternative comes along).
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keeptrying将近 6 年前
I dont know what it is but I love looking through junk to see if I can find something valuable.<p>I rarely find anything useful but I just love going through junk of any sort.<p>I&#x27;m guessing my ancestors were some sort of scavangers or something?? I&#x27;ve never understood why it gives me so much pleasure!
mandeepj将近 6 年前
Great idea. You can easily buy a Mac Pro quad-core (single or dual cpu) for anywhere between $300 to $900. It&#x27;s going to work on par with today&#x27;s expensive machines :-)
s09dfhks将近 6 年前
Currently using a Dell r710 I got from a recycler for $75 as a freenas box<p>It&#x27;s not THAT loud and serves my needs pretty well. Came with a single 2.1gHz xenon and has room for a second
meerita将近 6 年前
I always wanted to buy a SGI station, and use the old OS. I hope someday find one example that it&#x27;s pristine.
dillonmckay将近 6 年前
This article is a bit verbose, not very succinct.<p>I was trying to find the actual specs on his purchase.<p>Is it using ECC RAM?
nurettin将近 6 年前
Power consumption and fan sounds on those things were insane.
pschmot将近 6 年前
The Xeon workstations I have and can easily access, are all 32bit<p>What good will one let alone several 32bit machines will do for me now a days.<p>I can use Ubuntu, or chain them, but how would you do anything with virtualization and advanced computing.?
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unixhero将近 6 年前
I do this. HP Z620 is a phenomenal workstation.
dis-sys将近 6 年前
old Xeon are not all E6-2680v2 kind of junk, you can buy a pair of used Xeon Platinum 8175M + a decent brand new dual socket motherboard for less than $2,500 USD.
supernova87a将近 6 年前
What a useless article that just talks about intangible social reasons to buy something used.<p>I would&#x27;ve expected some kind of cost analysis for how much compute power $500 buys you on a few years old workstation versus something new, and that you get more for your money used. Nothing.