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Want to hire the best programmers? Offer growth

599 点作者 ammon将近 6 年前

55 条评论

chrissnell将近 6 年前
It&#x27;s a little peculiar how this blog post really pushes the inclusiveness angle despite the numbers showing clearly that it is not a big priority for prospective employees. They even go as far as highlighting that the sampled women want inclusiveness 171% more than the sampled men, which sounds pretty strong, but hides the real story when you look at the _actual numbers_. Only 15% of women ranked inclusion as a top priority, which is telling.<p>It seems pretty apparent to me that most employees (and that includes all genders, races, etc.) don&#x27;t care nearly as much about inclusiveness as their leadership seems to. After reading this post, it seems to confirm what I&#x27;ve suspected all long: people mostly want money and the potential to make more money in the future.
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nscalf将近 6 年前
I&#x27;m a software engineer with ~3 years of experience. I also want professional growth. Partially because I enjoy learning and growing my technical skills, partially because I want to move into more leadership roles, but a huge part of it is because I know that if I&#x27;m good, I will be paid a massive premium for it. levels.fyi sort of convinced me that being a good engineer is a life changing event for more than 1 generation. I answer questions like these as growth primarily because I know growth is an investment for my life long earning potential, and I just so happen to have a passion for growth to begin with---it&#x27;s a lucky combination to be drawn to.<p>I&#x27;d love to see questions like this phrased to account for this: &quot;Opportunity for professional growth, to grow my future earning potential.&quot; &quot;Opportunity for professional growth, because I enjoy learning new things.&quot; &quot;Opportunity for professional growth, to reach a role I cannot fill with my current skills.&quot;<p>I know the article tried to address this with the responses, but that&#x27;s sort of the default answer you give in this field. No one really says, or enjoys hearing, &quot;I want to learn more so I can make more money&quot;.
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elindbe2将近 6 年前
I wonder how many people in the survey interpret &quot;opportunities for professional growth&quot; as &quot;opportunities to get rich&quot;. To me that makes the survey data more understandable. People, myself included, basically want more money for less hours (AKA work&#x2F;life balance).
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antoinevg将近 6 年前
Fuck that, I&#x27;ve been doing this for 25 years and what I want in order of importance is:<p>1) Pay me 2) Autonomy
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ticmasta将近 6 年前
So in a candidate response-based survey 54% picked the more palatable &quot;Growth Opportunities&quot; item but 42% also selected the far less attractive motivator of &quot;More money&quot;.<p>Accounting for the &quot;perceived gallantry&quot; of these motivators I&#x27;d call that a statistical wash, but the article title &quot;Want to hire the best programmers? Pay them the highest salaries.&quot; doesn&#x27;t support the &quot;best engineers &#x2F; best companies&quot; narrative very well.
vinceguidry将近 6 年前
The vast majority of programming jobs, like the vast majority of ordinary jobs, are not going to be able to offer growth potential, at least, not growth potential that would actually look appealing to anyone posting here. If the only incentive on the company&#x27;s part is increased retention, that&#x27;s just not a good-enough reason to spend time on more than lip service.<p>My company is a weirdly-effective consulting firm with a staff-augmentation business model. I chalk their success up to two factors. One, there&#x27;s no middle management, only team leads reporting to a cadre of developer-owners. Second, they&#x27;ve been really good at landing the right kind of clients.<p>It&#x27;s rather funny watching them try to figure out how to engage their workforce, but with a staff-aug model, devs feel more like employees of the client rather than of the consultant. So everyone&#x27;s just kind of meh. It feels a little The Office-ish.<p>The other consequence is that there is practically zero real growth potential, and no incentive to do anything other than keep butts in chairs. Nobody&#x27;s going to let me jump from the consultant to the client, the only path up is out.<p>I hope this business model dies. It feels distinctly evil.
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RNeff将近 6 年前
Offer a quiet, private office. Two or more monitors. Free snacks and free lunches. Modern software stack (whatever that is).<p>Or full-time remote.
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cbanek将近 6 年前
&gt; Second, women engineers prioritize growth to an even greater extent than men, and they place particular secondary emphasis on inclusivity and comfort with their work and environment.<p>Woman in tech here. I agree completely, and I&#x27;d almost say that saying you want to grow your career in an inclusive environment is saying &quot;I want to grow in a place that will actually value me and promote me.&quot; Been in so many places where talented women are just not promoted, and it can be so demoralizing.
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trilila将近 6 年前
Don’t treat developers like bricklayers. Sack any product manager or manager that does it. This is the root of all evil, radical as it may sound. There needs to be a balance between engineering and product delivery, but too much emphasis on product delivery leads to tech debt, cutting too many corners and poor tech choices. Not to mention stress and little to no job satisfaction. Give devs some time to build something they are proud of. Good devs are in it because they love and once that love is gone the dev is gone.
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umvi将近 6 年前
Am I the only one here that likes growth because I like learning? I try and grow all the time in non-professional areas of my life even though there is no direct monetary compensation for doing so (such as learning new languages, instruments, etc.)
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noncoml将近 6 年前
Can we stop with this “we hire only the best programmers?”<p>You are probably not the best company so stop trying to hire the best programmers.<p>It’s like the fat, ugly, jobless guy that only dates accomplished super models.
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sombremesa将近 6 年前
Want to hire the best programmers? Good luck.<p>Same as &quot;want to pick the best stocks&quot;, &quot;want to win the lottery&quot;, &quot;want to marry the best person&quot;, &quot;want to get the best price&quot;, ...
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jodrellblank将近 6 年前
<i>Engineers Want To Learn, Even If They’re Very Senior</i><p>But &#x2F;what&#x2F; do they want to learn? Something about this bit is rubbing me the wrong way:<p>&gt; &quot;<i>In 2002, a very good COBOL or Fortran engineer was probably in a good place as far as their job search was concerned, but today they&#x27;re unlikely to get much attention from companies that have moved on to more modern languages. Had that engineer focused on growth to keep up with changes in the industry, they might have learned Python or JavaScript and been able to keep up with the market.</i>&quot;<p>Is .. reinventing the wheel, or learning the same thing in a new language, really the same as &quot;growth&quot;?<p>Is it even &quot;learning&quot; in any way more than &quot;memorization&quot;?<p>Since when is &quot;keeping up with the Joneses&quot; the same as &quot;(personal) growth&quot;? Had that engineer focused on growth and learning, perhaps they&#x27;d now be a High Performance Computing specialist in Fortran, or a business analyst with an MBA overseeing a COBOL team&#x27;s migration, or a founder of a COBOL codebase analysis tool company, or a bi-lingual contractor traveling to help foreign companies move away from COBOL, or .. anything, growing and changing instead of writing a database report in COBOL then in Java then C# then in JavaScript.
git-pull将近 6 年前
Don&#x27;t give coding quizzes if they can provide better evidence of their ability.<p>It&#x27;s unfair in the least, rude at the worst to pigeon-hole &quot;senior&quot; programmers into scenarios &#x2F; pop quizzes.<p>Let them show off recent personal projects. They&#x27;ll probably have no problem spending a weekend hacking on something they&#x27;re passionate about.<p>Be a serious employer:<p>Convince the best programmers (whatever that means) why they should reorganize their life around your business:<p>- Pension plans &#x2F; job security are nice. It&#x27;s a good motivator to know that there will be an annuity when they&#x27;re 60 &#x2F; 65 and would rather spend time with their family.<p>- Union contract (or something comparable) <i>or</i> a labor system with robust employee rights and unemployment insurance. It&#x27;s pretty unfair in the US with at-will employment.<p>- Have strong financials. Be a business that&#x27;ll be around in 10 years. Can your business keep paying employees if it&#x27;s in the red for a year?<p>If you don&#x27;t offer the above: Why feel deserving of the best?<p>I&#x27;m being facetious on the above points: It&#x27;s tech, it&#x27;s a fast cycle and inherently unstable. But when orgs talk about hiring - it irks me to see the entitlement employers have when they have little investment in the welfare of employees as persons (and families)
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thow_leet将近 6 年前
I don’t think hiring managers really want to hire the best programmers. They want people they feel comfortable managing, someone who isn’t going to be challenging them. There is no risk in leaving roles open, in fact it contributes to their job security as long as there is VC money to burn. That is why the coding challenges are so popular, it communicates “here, do what I say.”
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ngngngng将近 6 年前
I&#x27;m not sure I agree with the conclusions. Sure I really want to grow as an engineer, BECAUSE I want to make more money. When I think of professional growth, I think of a company that will give me large pay bumps equal to what I could get if I left, because as time goes on I get more productive and more knowledgeable.
opportune将近 6 年前
I have seen employers grossly misunderstand &quot;professional growth&quot; to mean paying for tons of random seminars telling you the basics of being a professional like taking care of your appearance, carrying yourself, setting goals, etc. I don&#x27;t think they understood that growth == promotions and income advancement.<p>I would have much rather taken home an extra $5k, or get a promotion two months earlier, than waste time sitting through self help seminars
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notyourday将近 6 年前
I love these kind of surveys. They just demonstrate time and time again how gullible people are, especially those that hire companies like TB to help with hiring.<p>Want to hire best programmers? Pay. Them. More. Money.<p>&quot;I want to grow&quot; is a polite way of saying &quot;I want my compensation to grow&quot;.<p>P.S. Do you know why people bend over backwards at interviews for Google&#x2F;Netflix&#x2F;Facebook and do not for a Domino&#x27;s? It is because if they do well on interview at FAANG they would be making mid to high six figures while they would be making sixties as managers at Domino
WomanCanCode将近 6 年前
There&#x27;s no such thing as growth in the technology field. Most of the organizations just want a specific and narrow expertise in a particular technology. If you think your 7+ years of experience in certain technology is something then you are wrong. There&#x27;ll be an 18 year old who has been programing in that technology since he was 12. You&#x27;ll eventually get pushed over. Employers don&#x27;t want a well-rounded person. They just want someone who know enough to do maintenance and their current products.
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ptero将近 6 年前
Growth is good, but it means different things to different people. Someone might want more money, another opportunities to attend and present at conferences, third a path to management, fourth a path to &quot;technical expert at large&quot;, etc. etc.<p>And mistakes can backfire: offer a management path to a person who wants more technology and he may think &quot;ouch, bureaucracy and PowerPoint ahead&quot;. I think a general (and genuine) statement of support for technical leadership, management and whatever other paths a company offers would go further than a generic &quot;support growth&quot; mantra. My 2c.
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bozoUser将近 6 年前
&gt; “Opportunities for professional growth” is the clear winner, appearing 13 percentage points above even “salary”.<p>Ofcourse professional growth is the winner as more often than not is directly proportional to one`s salary.<p>As a s&#x2F;w engg. &quot;professional growth&quot; is a hybrid of bunch of things - learning new tech, Cloud knowledge(k8s, docker etc.), and well summarized in the lines below by the author:<p>&gt; In short, software engineers of all stripes want, more than anything else, to develop their abilities as engineers. They want it more than pay, more than work&#x2F;life balance, and more than autonomy.
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sheeshkebab将近 6 年前
When someone offers me “Growth” at work, it makes me cringe. We’re all grown ups here - offer me either mission&#x2F;things I’m passionate about or money. Ideally both. Don’t offer me bull shit.
dobleo将近 6 年前
Is it just me, or did they twist the data in order to put &quot;inclusive workplace&quot; at the first place in the rating? Even the adjusted table shows that only 15% of women care enough about inclusivity at work, but the summary puts a lot of emphasis on how women prioritize it...
davesmith1983将近 6 年前
TBH I would settle for working on a sane codebase. Almost every codebase I have worked on except for my own are a complete mess. Basic things aren&#x27;t done right e.g. Reproducible builds, source control, code review etc.
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swalsh将近 6 年前
My wife is a traditional &quot;professional&quot;. When she has a 1:1 with her boss, her boss gives her advice on how to move up. They talk about what she needs to do for a promotion etc. I&#x27;ve never personally experienced that. If I talk about growth, my bosses always think i&#x27;m talking about what new kinds of technologies I want to work with. I&#x27;ve been writing code professionally for nearly 14 years, it&#x27;s still interesting, but I&#x27;ve increasingly become less interested in the technical aspects. I&#x27;ve worked with my current boss at 3 different companies. He&#x27;s always took care of me, and he trusts me to write code, but the one time I talked about moving my career along to the next step to something beyond what I am today he was ready to let me go. His exact words were &quot;I&#x27;d be happy to provide a reference for you&quot;. It became clear that he had no interest in helping me grow unless growth meant learning a new technology. I&#x27;ve just avoided the topic since then.
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john_moscow将近 6 年前
If you want growth as a programmer, you need to learn how to see the business model of the company you are applying to and how your work integrates into it.<p>It wouldn&#x27;t be very wise to expect growth if your job is to keep a legacy system running on the minimum possible budget. Or to maintain a &quot;leave us your email&quot; website where the business is all about sales talking to the prospects and all they need from the devs is to make certain a database entry gets created when a user clicks &quot;submit&quot;.<p>You could expect growth if your job is about finding efficient ways to solve a business pain. Or creating a model that makes it easier to understand and navigate domain-specific data. Or anything else where the decisions you make affect how much the paying customers will appreciate the product.<p>Unfortunately, most developers don&#x27;t want to go into that domain, and so most of the developer jobs focus on pretty much CRUD where &quot;growth&quot; could at best mean learning a new framework that will get obsoleted in a few years anyway.
georgeburdell将近 6 年前
In my opinion this line of thinking may be good for the employee but bad for the company and its users. I bet a large chunk of the “Google Graveyard” is comprised of projects designed to get a few people a promotion or keep them around. And we’re worse off for it.<p>My takeaway is that companies need to start focusing on matching jobs to skill level instead of always competing for the best
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yangez将近 6 年前
&gt; We’re arbitrarily defining “great” candidates as those scoring between 95th and 98th percentile on our technical interview, and “the best” candidates as those scoring at 98th percentile or above.<p>This is an important qualifier. I&#x27;d argue that the <i>most technical</i> candidates are not necessarily the ones who offer the most value to companies. In fact, I would argue that &quot;notably de-emphasizing ambition&quot; will cancel out your technical superiority in the overwhelming majority of cases.<p>Here&#x27;s a choice for your company&#x27;s next hire:<p>1. A technically superior but comfortable candidate whose top priority is maintaining work-life balance and flexible work arrangements<p>2. A technically adequate but hungry candidate whose top priority is moving fast and learning tons<p>Who would you choose?
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joker3将近 6 年前
&quot;opportunity for growth&quot; is ambiguous. TripleByte should really be asking about more specific things like &quot;skill development&quot; or &quot;opportunities for promotion&quot;. I expect that you&#x27;d see some pretty different patterns with those.
julius_set将近 6 年前
This article defines great and the best engineers by:<p>“For the purposes of this article, we’re arbitrarily defining “great” candidates as those scoring between 95th and 98th percentile on our technical interview, and “the best” candidates as those scoring at 98th percentile or above.”<p>A test that they’ve come up with internally. What makes this company an authority on determining great and best engineers purely on data structures and algorithms style interview questions that most likely a recent grad will be efficient with (for software engineers anyways*).<p>This article is standing on a house of cards. It’s first principles lack and the assumptions it makes on top of those first principle is highly questionable.<p>J
l0b0将近 6 年前
Is there a dark side to this? A lot of the &quot;not invented here&quot; and chasing the latest tech could be caused by workplaces not realizing that there are less breaking ways to learn new things. Agile is great at this, by encouraging self-review at all levels. Then there&#x27;s getting from sufficient to masterful at all sorts of general skills such as testing, version control, refactoring, requirements gathering, presenting etc. But to advance <i>quickly</i> in any of these you need mentors rather than self-study, because it&#x27;s easier to learn directly from someone who has done it before and who can show you examples in the work context you already know.
bluedino将近 6 年前
Is Triplebyte paying for product placement here now? They&#x27;ve taken over Reddit.
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jv22222将近 6 年前
Again, with the demonizing PHP as a staid old language to stick with.<p>So silly, and completely incorrect, as PHP frameworks and the language itself continue to innovate and keep Up and in some cases are cutting edge.
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hidden_arachnid将近 6 年前
Author of this article here. As long as this initial data-dive came out, there are still a bunch of things we’d like to look at. Does location (say, NYC vs Silicon Valley vs affect these preferences? Does which track (generalist, front-end, mobile) a candidate takes through our process? How does this link with how candidates actually behave when given an offer? Our data set has enough information that we can investigate these questions, but this was long enough as it is.
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tonymet将近 6 年前
Not that I fully disagree, but with proper discipline growth can be found in maintenance work. no system is perfect and you can constantly improve, refactor, add coverage, add telemetry, reduce operations etc. It&#x27;s not only Greenfield or &quot;hip&quot; projects that provide growth. like any endeavor it&#x27;s up to the artisan to find meaning and challenge in any work
mytailorisrich将近 6 年前
At the risk of sounding cynical, this is really the standard drive in all jobs: money and opportunity for more money and higher status.
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radcon将近 6 年前
In my experience, most managers think <i>&quot;If I can&#x27;t objectively measure it, it doesn&#x27;t exist.&quot;</i><p>Therefore, since the benefits of fostering employee growth can&#x27;t be easily quantified, most managers choose to believe they don&#x27;t exist.<p>Same goes for things like flexible work schedules, work-from-home days and generous vacation policies.
gringoDan将近 6 年前
As the article mentioned, the importance of growth&#x27;s influence can be explained in large part by a broad interpretation of the question. This article defined &quot;Professional Growth&quot; by saying:<p>&gt; <i>&quot;In short, software engineers of all stripes want, more than anything else, to develop their abilities as engineers&quot;</i><p>This is true, but it&#x27;s also the first-order answer. The follow-up question to ask is <i>why</i> they want to develop their engineering ability. It may be to make a higher salary down the road (i.e. current salary is less important than future earning potential), to develop the skill set to found their own company, to gain prestige by moving up in an organization and managing other engineers.<p>Overall, really interesting post - definitely worth diving into the data further.
itronitron将近 6 年前
The article title conflicts with the conclusion of their analysis.<p><i>The best engineers notably de-emphasize ambition.</i> is one of their conclusions based on their &#x27;best&#x27; category indicating a higher priority on work&#x2F;life balance than the &#x27;great&#x27; and &#x27;all&#x27; categories.<p>They say their data shows that all engineers care about growth, so the title would be more accurate written as &#x27;Want to hire programmers? Offer growth&#x27;.<p>It would be nice if they included information on the source data, in order to go through their system it is my understanding that candidates need to be willing to work where they have clients, and that is going to bias their sample considerably.
pixelrevision将近 6 年前
Anecdotal but &quot;opportunity for professional growth&quot; seems like the best answer to a recruiter trying to sell you. Flexible work arrangements on a high quality code base is what everyone I know wants to do....
pawelduda将近 6 年前
And here I am, 1 day after a presentation in front of the entire company, about pretty much the same topic.<p>Had I known about this article earlier, the execution would have been so much different (the presentation was terribad but whatever, I had good intentions). And the response would have been much better too (it&#x27;s still very good, but I don&#x27;t know whether that&#x27;s good enough to push other people forward).<p>Regardless, thank you for posting this. The article and most of the comments in here echo my thoughts.
c-smile将近 6 年前
Management is an art of creating motivations to your subordinates. An art, sic!<p>Each of us is different. Of course we can draw charts outlining average patients temperature in a hospital... with the same informational value.<p>I wish all of us to experience joy from what we are doing. Let it be in the number of happy members of your team, beauty of your code, amount of salary you bring to your family … It can really be anything. Just keep your mind out of Procrustean bed of common stereotypes.
pyb将近 6 年前
My main motivator, &quot;close collaboration within the team&quot;, didn&#x27;t even make the list.<p>Wonder what were the choices on offer in the survey ?
LordHumungous将近 6 年前
Very interesting that women consistently rate salary as a lower priority and w&#x2F;l balance as a higher priority than men.
dymk将近 6 年前
Interesting that Salary is the second most important. I think there might be an explanation for this.<p>I&#x27;ve always interpreted &quot;Personal Growth&quot; as basically meaning &quot;I&#x27;ll have a higher salary in the future&quot;. So perhaps &quot;Salary&quot; is still the main motivator.
mxd3将近 6 年前
Off topic: this company’s advertising on Reddit is beyond annoying. Has anyone else experienced this?
_def将近 6 年前
Isn&#x27;t this conclusion only natural? It baffles me that so many people responsible for companies don&#x27;t understand basic human needs and instead blindly follow trends. I just don&#x27;t get business stuff.
glutamate将近 6 年前
Apparently no one is motivated by social or environmental impact
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typon将近 6 年前
Women value good code-bases more than men. Very interesting.
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eddd将近 6 年前
Do they want to &quot;grow&quot; or just want to deploy shiny projects that showed on HN last week?
keithnz将近 6 年前
seems an odd title to the article given the analysis of &quot;great&quot; and &quot;best&quot; engineers where they highlight other factors as being more important?
miguelmota将近 6 年前
Growth = new skills<p>New skills = more money<p>More money = better life
yowlingcat将近 6 年前
I think this means we have to address some potentially specious statistical reasoning here. Assuming that a point cloud of pre transaction questions gives you the information to ascertain the career trajectory between great engineers and the &quot;best&quot; engineers is likely a fool&#x27;s errand. What&#x27;s the data source? Is it your technical screen? If there is any possibility that your technical screen doesn&#x27;t track reality accurately, then your ranking metric is probabilistically very likely to be inaccurate. This is the risk of trying to quantify skill and potential levels before you try to qualify them properly. Most recruiting platforms work on a transaction processing fee on a per placement basis. Triplebyte is no different. The entire product is set up for a candidate to land a job. It is not set up for a candidate to structure and guide their entire career. The simple way to think of a transaction is as a point: point score on an assessment test, point score on a technical screen, point offer extended or not. You see these things being measured in this blog post, but that doesn&#x27;t tell the full story to a hiring manager. If you&#x27;re hiring an engineer that&#x27;s actually growth oriented, you care about looking at the first and second order derivatives of all of these things, and you&#x27;ll see them on a project to project basis, or on a person to person basis based on how they interact with their team and other teams.<p>I want to repeat myself and restate that most recruiting platforms work on a transaction processing fee on a per placement basis. It&#x27;s erroneous to try and draw the wrong kind of conclusions from data points gathered from enabling this transaction, especially when it&#x27;s just 1. When a candidate receives multiple offers that they&#x27;re interested in, it&#x27;s very likely that they&#x27;ll make a holistic judgment based on a combination of factors, and their gut. Is the company &quot;good&quot; or &quot;sketchy?&quot; Do they feel chemistry with the people they&#x27;ll be working with? Are they stimulated by the work the team will be doing over the next year? The truth is, for most talented engineers at early stage companies, any company that makes a desirable product and has substantial growth left in building and scaling its product will allow for growth in literal terms. The limiting factors there will likely be the team, if anything. If there&#x27;s juice left to be squeezed from building further product edge, and the team is good, the org is good, and the leadership is good, it&#x27;s very likely that an engineer will receive more than one opportunity that is &quot;good enough&quot; -- good enough for them to exercise the upper limits on how far they can grow.<p>It&#x27;s easy to pay lip service to offering growth, but it&#x27;s hard to actually do. In many cases, companies shouldn&#x27;t be trying to offer that with a straight face. In growth stage startups, growth as an engineer is bound to the combination of the growth of the company and the growth of the product. In most cases, if you want to hire any kinds of the best employees, you need to offer growth. But, your business model, company growth and stage of company and culture all have to offer that. That&#x27;s the hard part. It&#x27;s something that needs to come from the executive level as well as good timing and a ton of foundational work.<p>If you can offer growth, that&#x27;s great. It will make it easy to hire the best. But, most companies are not in the position, and the ones that are certainly don&#x27;t need this advice. So, this isn&#x27;t really useful. Offering growth is not something you can turn on and off. You need to build a great company and build a great product that people want and which a great business can or is built around. If you can do that, expanding the engineering team becomes a matter of logistics instead of intractables.<p>I think TripleByte is a great idea, and it&#x27;s at an interesting point right now. But to use your data to answer this question requires looking at things longitudinally, and that could be hard unless TripleByte becomes more of a career management platform as well as a two sided hiring marketplace. Having used Hired, Angellist and TripleByte before on both sides, I&#x27;m definitely really curious about seeing where things evolve.
ppcdeveloper将近 6 年前
nuff said
dventimi将近 6 年前
Hire database developers.