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Wine-dark sea

150 点作者 shawndumas将近 6 年前

24 条评论

fluorocarbon将近 6 年前
Since I began studying Greek, the whole wine-dark thing has struck me as pretty silly. The actual phrase is οἶνοψ πόντος (oinops pontos) which means &quot;wine-face sea.&quot; Pontos refers to the open sea, not the shallows or the sea near shore.<p>For some reason the English-speaking world thinks it has to be translated as a color word. Maybe because it was incorrectly translated as wine-dark? But it&#x27;s not exclusively a color word, just like &quot;metallic&quot; is not exclusively a color word in English. It means exactly what it says: wine-faced, having a wine-like surface.<p>The Greeks didn&#x27;t drink wine in glasses like we do today. They mixed wine in a giant mixing bowl called a κρατήρ (krater). It could be different colors and was sometimes cloudy, like natural wines are today. They often mixed in honey, herbs, and fruit. Wine was also seen as a god: we say that Dionysos was the god of wine, but to the Greeks, wine itself was commonly thought of as <i>being</i> Dionysos.<p>So when imagining an oinops pontos, instead of picturing of a glass of pinot noir, imagine a huge bowl sitting in a candle-lit room, filled with a dark cloudy liquid, still swirling and bubbling slightly, shapes occasionally surfacing, a sheen reflecting the flickering candle light, containing a mysterious divine power. <i>That&#x27;s</i> what Homer&#x27;s referencing when he says wine-faced. The surface of the sea is like the surface of that bowl of wine–probably with the implication of a mysterious divine power beneath.
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jowday将近 6 年前
Reminds me of Gene Wolfe&#x27;s use of language in Book of the New Sun. BOTNS is set on a far-future dying earth, and (unreliably) narrated by the protagonist Severian and translated into contemporary English.<p>Close readings reveal dramatic differences between the book&#x27;s setting and our world that aren&#x27;t at all apparent if you rush through the books. The protagonist refers to his pet as a dog, but reading his descriptions of the creature closely you might realize his definition of a dog is very different from our own. At another point in the story, the protagonist has a vision of a blue sky and describes it as incomprehensibly bright, indicating that the sun has dimmed and the planet is stuck in a sort of perpetual twilight.<p>Once the reader notices these things, they might start to realize just how different the setting of the book is. Suddenly everything in the text is open to interpretation. At one point you realize that people who operate spaceships in this setting are referred to as sailors. Does that mean all of the other &#x27;sailors&#x27; that Severian encountered previously are actually interstellar travelers? What about the character who spoke with a sailor&#x27;s accent? Was that horse that Severian rode an actual horse, or some far-future alien analog? Many of these moments are very brief and easy to miss - the book doesn&#x27;t take time to explain or emphasize this divergent use of language. You can read this book over and over and still get something new out of it.
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rainydaybook将近 6 年前
What&#x27;s odd is that there are many instances of odd use of color in descriptions but there is no normal (to us) usage, and from what I&#x27;ve read the same applies to other ancient sources. Honey is green (in Homer), but there&#x27;s no green trees, green leaves, grass, etc; there is no blue sky or blue sea. The linguistic analysis of when separate colors were introduce into languages also shows they were added at very different times. William Gladstone wasn&#x27;t very careful in his phrasing when he wrote on the topic and so it from the start got a bit of a reputation of a crazed theory, but there is something odd about the whole thing. I think it&#x27;s not resolved because serious researches familiar with ancient egyptian and sumerian languages don&#x27;t find this interesting enough to research it? Perhaps there&#x27;s too few of them and too many other, more important and unresolved questions?
pavlov将近 6 年前
Isn’t “wine dark” used in Homer to describe the sea at dawn? I’ve associated it to mean dark with a hint of purple from the rising sun — not literally ruby-colored.<p>It seems odd that English-speaking people would get overly literal about this expression when English itself is full of similar exaggerative coloring: someone “ashen-faced” is presumably not light gray and devoid of hue all over their skin, etc.
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Tharkun将近 6 年前
I can recommend the book &quot;Through the Language Glass: Why the World Looks Different in Other Languages&quot; to anyone interested in this sort of stuff.
tony_cannistra将近 6 年前
Man, one of the teachers who has made the most significant impact upon me was my middle school Latin teacher back in Providence (we translated Homer from Latin). She had such a passion for the language, and for idioms like this, that it was infectious, even to a bunch of shithead middle schoolers. I still get a little pang of excitement when I read this phrase, such was the drama of translating the Iliad. Word-for-word it was an adventure.
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radamadah将近 6 年前
I know researchers have found how the ancient Greeks used to paint their sculptures, and that they used blue, green, and red as separate colors (<a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.smithsonianmag.com&#x2F;arts-culture&#x2F;true-colors-17888&#x2F;" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.smithsonianmag.com&#x2F;arts-culture&#x2F;true-colors-1788...</a>).<p>I always considered that phrase in Homer as a poetic flourish, or maybe just something that was a figure of speech in his time period.
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michaericalribo将近 6 年前
Then there are the Homeric epithets, which recur and are believed to be a mnemonic device...so &quot;wine-dark sea&quot; is not only a descriptor, but an anchor to remember the surrounding verse.<p>I believe this was a 20th-century discovery, no less, and even &quot;ancient&quot; texts have dimensions that are easily overlooked
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googleanalytics将近 6 年前
<a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;medium.com&#x2F;@skallasp&#x2F;homers-wine-dark-sea-faq-15004acbccca" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;medium.com&#x2F;@skallasp&#x2F;homers-wine-dark-sea-faq-15004a...</a>
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bhaak将近 6 年前
One of the proposed explanations is that the ancient Greeks didn&#x27;t have a fully developed mental model of colors and used them more along on a light&#x2F;dark axis than dividing the colors into strictly separate color terms (also remember that bright pure colors weren&#x27;t a thing).<p>I can relate to this idea as my memories are not filled with vivid colors. They are also not completely colorless as I remember there being colors but pinpointing what color certain objects had is sometimes difficult if the color was not a significant property of the object.<p>For example, remembering&#x2F;picturing that grass is green is not a problem. Or that the sea at the beach was of a vivid blue because this was the memorable impression. But remembering which exact color the dress somebody was wearing had, this might be difficult. I&#x27;ll remembering that it was a brightly colored dress and therefore will be &quot;seeing&quot; in my mind a bright dress that is colored, but without &quot;seeing&quot; a specific color but also &quot;seeing&quot; it with some excluded colors (like dark gray, brown, jeans blue) that are not bright.<p>It might be significant that Homer&#x27;s stories were told for a relatively long time before they were written down. Oral poetry has other requirements than written poetry as you have to keep everything in memory and can&#x27;t rely on an external source.
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samirillian将近 6 年前
I remember that &quot;On the Sublime&quot; references the phrase wine-dark, and considers it prototypically sublime. I think the metaphor is inherently mysterious, as all good metaphors are.<p>c.f., <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;en.wikipedia.org&#x2F;wiki&#x2F;On_the_Sublime" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;en.wikipedia.org&#x2F;wiki&#x2F;On_the_Sublime</a><p>edit - found the passage<p>How unlike to this the expression which is used of Sorrow by Hesiod, if indeed the Shield is to be attributed to Hesiod:<p>Rheum from her nostrils was trickling. (Shield of Heracles 267)<p>The image he has suggested is not terrible but rather loathsome. Contrast the way in which Homer magnifies the higher powers:<p>And far as a man with his eyes through the sea-line haze may discern,<p>On a cliff as he sitteth and gazeth away o’er the wine-dark deep,<p>So far at a bound do the loud-neighing steeds of the Deathless leap. (Iliad 5. 770)<p>He makes the vastness of the world the measure of their leap. The sublimity is so overpowering as naturally to prompt the exclamation that if the divine steeds were to leap thus twice in succession they would pass beyond the confines of the world.
_0w8t将近 6 年前
There were interesting tweets a year ago that perhaps ancients did have words for blue,<p><a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;twitter.com&#x2F;search?q=blue%20(from%3APaulSkallas)%20until%3A2018-07-15%20since%3A2018-05-01&amp;src=typed_query" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;twitter.com&#x2F;search?q=blue%20(from%3APaulSkallas)%20u...</a>
jrumbut将近 6 年前
I will recommend, as I have before, the Lattimore translation of the Iliad which leaves in the wine dark sea, wine dark oxen, winged words (my favorite Homerism), and glancing eyed helmets.<p>It preserves the fact that you are reading something that comes from a world no one alive today truly understands, even at a vocabulary level.
glamp将近 6 年前
For anyone interested in more on this, Radiolab did a really good episode on colors which includes a bit about Homer: <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.wnycstudios.org&#x2F;story&#x2F;211119-colors" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.wnycstudios.org&#x2F;story&#x2F;211119-colors</a>
steanne将近 6 年前
related: <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;en.wikipedia.org&#x2F;wiki&#x2F;Color_term#Basic_color_terms" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;en.wikipedia.org&#x2F;wiki&#x2F;Color_term#Basic_color_terms</a>
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chx将近 6 年前
I can wholeheartedly recommend the book Wikipedia mentions Deutscher, Guy (Aug 4, 2016). Through the Language Glass: Why The World Looks Different In Other Languages. Random House.
petjuh将近 6 年前
Perhaps people didn&#x27;t need a word for blue because they could say &quot;the color of sky&quot;. For example the English word &quot;green&quot; comes from &quot;grow&quot; in PIE, meaning &quot;the color of (plant) growth&quot;.<p>Even &quot;yellow&quot; comes from &quot;grow&quot; although the sound changes there are significant enough that it&#x27;s not as obvious as &quot;green&quot; is.
bladedtoys将近 6 年前
Even between closely related cultures using the same language, there are color differences. Even though both the British and Americans have the words &quot;pink&quot;, &quot;magenta&quot; and &quot;purple&quot;, the British use the word &quot;pink&quot; over a larger range that includes colors most Americans would call &quot;purple&quot; or &quot;magenta&quot;.
shredprez将近 6 年前
Every time this wanders across the front page of HN, I wonder:<p>What are the chances this is more a description of the murkiness or opacity of a dark sea (compared to water near the shore) rather than the literal color of the water?
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jorblumesea将近 6 年前
The article cited by wikipedia as a source is really good: <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.laphamsquarterly.org&#x2F;sea&#x2F;winelike-sea" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.laphamsquarterly.org&#x2F;sea&#x2F;winelike-sea</a>
denkmoon将近 6 年前
Tribal societies not having a word for blue is fascinating. How do they describe the colour of the open sky??<p>Blue pigments are quite rare in nature, but seeing the open sky has to be a universal human experience.
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ncmncm将近 6 年前
Cultures with few color words are, generally, those without paints to choose among. You just don&#x27;t need any particular precision about colors if you don&#x27;t need to make decisions about them.<p>People from cultures we like to call &quot;primitive&quot; are routinely astonished at how blind most of us are to critical distinctions in their world. Imagine, we have only one kind of uncle! &quot;We&quot; doesn&#x27;t say whether the listener is included, or whether the group are all blood relatives. There&#x27;s no end to this stuff, including in ancient Greek, so quibbling about color distinctions when we have to wash out so much to translate is distinctly ... hick.
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Kecelij将近 6 年前
Taleb writes about this extensively in his Antifragile.
awinter-py将近 6 年前
wine-face = smooth surface? texture not color?