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And suddenly, you're hip

182 点作者 Phra超过 14 年前

19 条评论

msy超过 14 年前
Thing is, while both Ruby &#38; Vim have been driven by what she's describing she neatly sidestepped why those movements got started in the first place. Ruby gained huge traction primarily via Rails because working on PHP is unenjoyable to many and Ruby is a really pleasant language to work with. Vim's recent resurgence can largely be traced to development of Textmate grinding to a complete halt. Textmate's rise a few years ago was due to BBEdit failing to evolve. Git beats seven shades of shit out of SVN. Erlang provides a proven answer to concurrency issues. Javascript is the only choice for the ever more important front-end side of web development. Each of these shifts of development momentum have rational, logical underpinnings.<p>The buzz, the screen casts and other errata are a consequence of a lot of people making the same logical, reasoned choice and talking about it in public. I cannot think of anything that's changed in Perl that'd justify any such interest. I admit that may be my ignorance. Making sexy screencasts might get a little traffic but you can't astroturf wave of developer momentum with them.
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po超过 14 年前
I used to be a huge Perl advocate; I loooved perlmonks back in the day. (Just tried to log back into it after probably over 10 years but the forgot password link doesn't work) I read the Camel book cover-to-cover and giggled at the footnotes.<p>While I loved the language, I can't imagine going back to it. Now perl programs look like cat typing to me. It was way too expressive. The TIMTOWDI mentality meant that I could never read code I didn't write myself, and even some that I did. It was terse and dense like poetry and hard to understand - like poetry. To really "know" the language meant knowing a huge surface area full of exceptions and special conditions.<p>Sure, you could limit yourself to certain best-practices and styles but it was like being handing the keys to the porsche and told to only drive 35. At every turn, the language was begging you to flex that newly acquired knowledge of special syntax. The obfuscation contests, the perl poetry, the quines… Many languages have this failing in my opinion and it certainly matters more when you're working in a large team (hence, rigid boring old Java) but Perl taught me what it was like to go too far down that path.<p>It is what I would call a write-only language.
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cturner超过 14 年前
<p><pre><code> where btw is A NICE HIP FEMALE PHRASE I COULD PRINT ON A SHIRT? </code></pre> I'm a vim ballerina!<p><pre><code> "we" are literally invisible to the bigger public, not matter how much CPAN grows and no matter how much #perl is the biggest IRC channel on freenode. </code></pre> Secret societies are cool.
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Samuel_Michon超过 14 年前
From the article:<p><i>"The iPhone isn't the highest sold smartphone"</i><p>Sure it is. At least in the U.S., Japan, New Zealand and Australia. In most other countries, Nokia is the most popular smartphone <i>vendor</i>, but because they offer hundreds of different models, I doubt Nokia has one specific model that sells better than the iPhone 4.<p>[U.S.] <a href="http://www.engadget.com/2010/11/01/canalys-iphone-becomes-most-popular-smartphone-in-the-us-andro/" rel="nofollow">http://www.engadget.com/2010/11/01/canalys-iphone-becomes-mo...</a><p>[Australia] <a href="http://www.idc.com/about/viewpressrelease.jsp?containerId=prAU22603210&#38;sectionId=null&#38;elementId=null&#38;pageType=SYNOPSIS" rel="nofollow">http://www.idc.com/about/viewpressrelease.jsp?containerId=pr...</a><p>[New Zealand] <a href="http://computerworld.co.nz/news.nsf/telecommunications/android-knocking-on-iphones-door" rel="nofollow">http://computerworld.co.nz/news.nsf/telecommunications/andro...</a><p>[Japan] <a href="http://www.businessweek.com/news/2010-04-23/apple-iphone-captures-72-of-japan-smartphone-market-update3-.html" rel="nofollow">http://www.businessweek.com/news/2010-04-23/apple-iphone-cap...</a>
megamark16超过 14 年前
I learned vim over emacs because vi is installed on every linux machine I have ever touched, so when I sit down to a server and I need to edit a config file, I try vim, then I use vi, and I always find one or the other. I just opened Terminal on my Ubuntu 10.10 machine and typed "emacs" and it informed me that it wasn't installed, but was available in a slew of packages.
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pyre超过 14 年前
A suggestion for a Perl screencast: using the Perl debugger. ~1.5 years ago my friend found a bug in the Perl debugger that had rendered it basically non-functional for several releases. I think it's telling that no one picked up on that for so long (i.e. no one is using the Perl debugger, probably because they don't know it exists and/or how to use it).<p>[ IIRC, it might be the bug under: <a href="http://perldoc.perl.org/perl5100delta.html" rel="nofollow">http://perldoc.perl.org/perl5100delta.html</a> ; search for 'PERLIO_DEBUG' ]
alnewkirk超过 14 年前
I guess I'll throw my hat in the ring. Perl is awesome, and since I've been using it practically my entire career and have contributed quite a substantial amount of time developing libraries for CPAN I suppose it my core-competency.<p>Bottom line, CPAN is awesome ... but lets not be a one trick pony. When you hear things over-and-over you should probably take notice (and maybe even onus). "Perl is not newbie friendly, past or present (modern)", "Perl community is not friendly (rtfm)", "Perl is not used for the new web", "Perl has no good IDE", etc.<p>I'd like to see Perl restored to its former glory because it is an incredibly versatile language. IMHO, I think Perl developers need to develop more purty public-facing tools, e.g. Websites, Web Apps, Desktop Apps, etc. .. see Lacuna Expanse for example.<p>CPAN Modules are not public-facing (or are to a point) and do nothing towards altering the perception of Perl.
va_coder超过 14 年前
Why Ruby? is a pretty damn good presentation. He talks about how the benefits include the culture, as well as the language.<p><a href="http://ontwik.com/ruby/david-hansson-why-ruby/" rel="nofollow">http://ontwik.com/ruby/david-hansson-why-ruby/</a>
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flatline超过 14 年前
'I've always wondered how those mechanism of "being THE it-language" or "the tool the cool kids use these days" or "success" in terms of "spreading everywhere" really works.'<p>Just having CPAN isn't enough. There need to be new and interesting projects that stand on their own and are current and relevant. I'm not saying there aren't, I just don't read about them on HN, reddit, etc. Perl was always about making things easy, and it wasn't hard to see how a perl script was better than a cgi handler in C. How is writing a DSL interpreter in Perl cool compared to, say, Ruby? How do the Perl MVC frameworks make things easier/better than rails or django?
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lwhi超过 14 年前
Marketing re-energised the web after the period of downtime after the dot-com crash (O'Reilly and Web 2.0), I'm sure it could similarly re-energise Perl.<p>EDIT: If Web 2.0 wasn't a well crafted marketing campaign I don't know what is.
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varjag超过 14 年前
Also, Ruby is a better language than Perl. No amount of campaigning will change that.<p>(Before anyone follows-up with the usual "the right tool for the job", it's not the point here. There are good screwdrivers and bad screwdrivers).
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pwpwp超过 14 年前
Nice article, although I'd fear a "Project for a New Perl Century". If there were an International Criminal Court for Programmer Rights, Perl should be the first language tried for crimes against programmerdom.
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mfukar超过 14 年前
I don't get it; when the Perl folk thought they had to reach the masses, instead of making Perl 5 more accessible to newbies, instead of covering Perl events (a comment on the blog mentions some specialized hardware for doing so - lol), instead of actively pushing Perl projects, they decided to come up with Perl 6!<p>Yet Perl 6, except from some blog posts describing its utter dominance over Perl 5 performance, still hasn't seen the coverage/promotion it deserves (I'm assuming here, because I'm not using it).<p>Maybe there are some lessons to be learned here.
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pacemkr超过 14 年前
I'm just getting into Ruby and converting to vim as my primary editor, and I didn't even know that this is a "hip" thing to do. All of a sudden I feel trashy for making logical choices.<p>I think the author misjudged why people like me choose Ruby and vim -- choices that have nothing to do with each other, btw.<p>I'm a fan of terseness and readability. Ruby has a reputation for both. I've never heard the following phrases spoken: "Perl is great for writing DSL's." "Perl is very readable."<p>The most amazing experience has been going on GitHub on day one, reading the Rails, Haml, Sinatra, Tilt, you name it, code and being able to understand virtually any part of it. This is not only a testament to the language, but also a testament to the quality of the frameworks and the API's that are being produced with it. Show me a web framework written in Perl that I can dig into and understand with zero Perl experience.<p>Vim, on the other hand, is a sour-sweet topic. Here is the only reason I'm using vim: everything else sucks ___. Vim also sucks ____ because in 2011 it is still a text editor that can't copy paste using the "normal people" shortcuts. I'm looking forward to the day I finally customize vim enough to match Notepad in usability.<p>As much as vim usability sucks, I know that I can spend a year customizing it (and it will take a year) and be able to rely on it for the rest of my life. In contrast, there is no such incentive to invest into the monstrosities riding over the JVM (not calling names).<p>Also, screencasts are great because I read all day and its tiring, physically tiring. Sitting back, relaxing my eyes and being educated while I sip on a coffee and have a cookie is my idea of fun. Screencasts are free, bite sized, training. By the author's logic Khan Academy is worthless as an educational tool because most of it is written somewhere.
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JonnieCache超过 14 年前
Communication skills correlate with social standing. News at 11.<p>:)
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pmikal超过 14 年前
Hip or un-hip, ChargeSmart loves perl - developers looking for work at a San Francisco based funded payments start-up should email me their details, pmikal [at] ChargeSmart.com.
bootload超过 14 年前
<i>"... Err, yeah well of course Vim is a really nice programming editor, man - why do you think we use it?! ..."</i><p>traditionally because if you are on a machine with limited memory vi, vim is the only editor that will load and there is no way you will get me using 'ed' again ~ <a href="http://www.faqs.org/docs/artu/ch13s02.html#id2963445" rel="nofollow">http://www.faqs.org/docs/artu/ch13s02.html#id2963445</a>
xsltuser2010超过 14 年前
Maybe you should market Perl as uncool and weird and without annoying yuppies like DHH. ;P
rgbrgb超过 14 年前
This article kind of made me want to get better at Vim.