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The myth of the teacher pay gap?

144 点作者 autokill超过 5 年前

31 条评论

IkmoIkmo超过 5 年前
&gt; (2) Annual wages have been calculated by multiplying the hourly mean wage by a &quot;year-round, full-time&quot; hours figure of 2,080 hours; for those occupations where there is not an hourly wage published, the annual wage has been directly calculated from the reported survey data.<p>See, this is where things go wrong. So they&#x27;ve got mean wage figures which are constructed both on a fact (hourly wage) and an assumption (working hours).<p>I know n=1 but, my girlfriend is a teacher and I see her working about 40 hours a week, for a 24h job. She has a 0.6 FTE contracted position (and an according 60% monthly salary), she&#x27;s at the school about 4 days a week. On her off-day, every single evening before work and after work, and at least one, sometimes two days of the weekend, she&#x27;s grading papers, designing exams, preparing lessons, calling up parents, responding to students on their education platform (some saas application on laptop &amp; phone) etc etc.<p>There&#x27;s no way she can handle a 1.0 position, she&#x27;d burn-out within 1 or 2 years. She knows this, all of her colleagues know this. Almost everyone works part-time.<p>She does teach difficult classes (lots of kids from low socioeconomic background, crappy parents, many distractions, little socialisation skills etc etc) but even teaching &#x27;easy&#x27; kids, you&#x27;ll still top-out at 0.8 FTE for the same mental effort &#x2F; working hours &#x2F; strain of 1.0 FTE at a &#x27;normal&#x27; job (like mine, corporate job at a financial institution).<p>Hourly wages can&#x27;t be straight-up compared between jobs high in mental or physical strain (e.g. teaching or construction) versus say an administrative office job. You just can&#x27;t last 40 years working the former jobs at a full-time position. Not the average person.
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Someone1234超过 5 年前
This seems to use private education as a benchmark for the entire argument. From quit rates, to pay, to conditions, and beyond, but ignores the obvious which is that private pay and private conditions are largely pinned to be just above public salaries and conditions (meaning private education cannot be used as a benchmark for when someone is under-paid, over-qualified, or has too high of a quit rate because they are related).<p>Personally I think someone required to have a degree (master&#x27;s for quoted salary), continued education requirements, and licensing earning under $50K&#x2F;year starting is too low. Plus no teacher is working 8-3, you&#x27;d have no opportunity for lesson planning, grading, and all those extra curriculars they are essentially guilted into organizing.<p>The fact that I could walk out of college with zero experience and only a degree, and earn $20K more than that working only 9-5 in the same city seems unfair (as a programmer). But I have no idea how society decides salaries. It seems pretty arbitrary from my perspective.<p>But it is great that at the end of a long career a few unicorn teachers can earn $100K, a salary I earned within 5 years and still no master&#x27;s or licencing.
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jedberg超过 5 年前
You&#x27;ll notice a lot of people commenting here &quot;my wife is a teacher&quot; (myself included). I think these statistics are missing two very big factors.<p>- In high cost areas like the Silicon Valley, almost every teacher is married to an engineer or is the child of an engineer. That is why they don&#x27;t need a second job. Because they have a support network.<p>- Teacher quits are low because most of the people who would be great teachers simply never get into the job because of the crappy pay and work conditions. The people who are the best at it could easily get other jobs. My wife if a great example -- during the summer she worked a temp job in the first few years that was basically a management job that would have an annual salary in the six figure range. She only kept doing teaching because she loved it and because I made enough money to support us.
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tunesmith超过 5 年前
The entire opening of the article seems to be designed to take advantage of confirmation bias - the initial &quot;there is no pay gap&quot; is just an assertion, and then a bunch of therefores are built on top of it.<p>Their entire argument seems to be based on &quot;the pay gap calculation is dumb&quot;, but the problem is, even if that is true, that doesn&#x27;t disprove that teachers are underpaid.<p>The point about teachers having above average pensions is a good point.<p>Salary correlating with required skill level also misses some of the point, I believe, because qualitatively speaking, skill level isn&#x27;t the most driving factor behind choosing to become a teacher.<p>The &quot;if teachers aren&#x27;t paid well, why aren&#x27;t we seeing more of them quit?&quot; is a lousy point. Some jobs are simply more important than others, and its jobs practitioners know that. They are less likely to quit.<p>I wonder if there&#x27;s a way to calculate replacement cost. Like, what the long term damage to society would be if 20% of a particular work force disappeared. That might be a better way to estimate how much teachers should actually be paid.
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SamuelAdams超过 5 年前
Why not just go directly to the source?<p><a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.bls.gov&#x2F;oes&#x2F;current&#x2F;oes_nat.htm#25-0000" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.bls.gov&#x2F;oes&#x2F;current&#x2F;oes_nat.htm#25-0000</a><p>Secondary School Teachers: annual mean wage: $64,230<p>If we zoom in on a particular type of teacher, you get ranges:<p>Middle school teachers <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.bls.gov&#x2F;oes&#x2F;current&#x2F;oes252022.htm" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.bls.gov&#x2F;oes&#x2F;current&#x2F;oes252022.htm</a><p>bottom 10% earn 39k or less.<p>bottom 25% earn 46k<p>50% earn 58k<p>75% earn 74k<p>90% earn 93k<p>Based on these metrics, it seems like a fine occupation. But I wonder how many teachers are new versus how many stay in the field a long time? I also wonder how location-dependent these salaries are.
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defertoreptar超过 5 年前
&gt; From the fall of 1987 through the fall of 2015, the number of public-school students increased by 20%, but the number of public-school teachers increased by 64%. More recently, in the four years leading up to the 2015-16 school year, teacher employment grew by 400,000, even as the number of students barely changed.<p>The effect of supply and demand has on job markets gets mentioned too little when discussing whether salaries are fair. We can&#x27;t at the same time be encouraging more students to become teachers <i>and</i> complain about salaries when demand for those positions don&#x27;t dictate incentivizing the supply. A more productive discussion would be about nudging students toward career paths that need them. The article mentions there&#x27;s a &quot;premium&quot; on nursing right now based on the method used to criticize teacher&#x27;s pay. Maybe there&#x27;s a good reason for that.
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childofteacher超过 5 年前
The 10-month working year is a core issue here. It&#x27;s hard to convince voters and other government workers that teachers deserve a X% or XX% raise, when teachers receive 2.5-3x (summer break, plus other holidays) more paid leave than the average American. That paid leave is worth something: I think many people would choose a job with a $50k salary and 10 weeks of leave over a $60k salary and 3 weeks of leave.<p>The obvious fix would be to get rid of the summer break, and give teachers a ~20% increase in salary to compensate them for the increase in working days. This would solve other problems as well: Summer break causes serious childcare problems for working-class families, and research indicates that it probably hurts educational outcomes as well. However, this is unlikely to happen for various reasons: It would stretch (or over-stretch) the limited budgets of local school districts, and summer break is politically popular and has relatively powerful state-level lobbying from tourism-related businesses.
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marricks超过 5 年前
I’m not so sure, my mom has been a teacher for 6 years and makes <i></i><i>around</i><i></i> 40k. Similar story for her peers.<p>And even a 20% raise wouldn’t allow her to afford a home, or to send her kids to college without a huge debt burden...<p>To be honest, I don’t even really care if that ends up being “in line with industry” some how, that’s still way too damn low. At that point everyone should be paid more.<p>EDIT: realize I mistyped wage, my points still stand about houses or college, and it’s not like her wages will go up much.
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mikeryan超过 5 年前
The more I read articles in education based on national numbers the more I realize that national macroeconomic views are pretty much meaningless compared to local micro views.<p>I don&#x27;t care how much teachers make nationally, - I care how much teachers make at my local schools.
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jonstewart超过 5 年前
The source needs some consideration. From Wikipedia on National Affairs:<p>“National Affairs is a quarterly magazine in the United States about political affairs that was first published in September 2009. Its founding editor, Yuval Levin, and authors are typically considered to be conservative.[1][2] The magazine is published by National Affairs, Inc., which previously published the magazines The National Interest (1985–2001) and The Public Interest (1965–2005). National Affairs, Inc., was originally run by Irving Kristol, and featured board members such as former Secretary of State Henry Kissinger, former ambassador to the United Nations Jeane Kirkpatrick, and author Charles Murray.”<p>Additionally one of the authors works at the American Enterprise Institute, ie., his job is to promote a politically conservative narrative on issues like these.
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etrevino超过 5 年前
There&#x27;s something missing from this. Teachers often buy classroom supplies themselves, instead of the district providing them. Yeah, they only spend about $479 on average [1], but it&#x27;s still a pretty unique situation.<p>That, I think, is where the sense (among teachers) of being underpaid comes from: teachers aren&#x27;t getting institutional support. That&#x27;s something that the National Affairs article mentions with regards to discipline, but it&#x27;s true in other ways as well. When you toss in the fact that a great deal of educational achievement happens outside of the classroom-- as the article mentions-- but teachers are expected to make up for that gap, often without the community support they would need.<p>Saying that &quot;I&#x27;m not paid enough to deal with this shit&quot; doesn&#x27;t seem that out of line to me.<p>1. <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.nytimes.com&#x2F;2018&#x2F;05&#x2F;16&#x2F;us&#x2F;teachers-school-supplies.html" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.nytimes.com&#x2F;2018&#x2F;05&#x2F;16&#x2F;us&#x2F;teachers-school-suppli...</a>
skywhopper超过 5 年前
This article is a political screed, cherry-picking data to discredit a single source of data. There&#x27;s no new useful data, or ideas about addressing problems in education. Its only purpose is to provide political cover for cutting education spending. Key detail: &quot;Andrew G. Biggs is a resident scholar at the American Enterprise Institute&quot;. Please remove.
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nightbrawler超过 5 年前
My wife used to be a teacher and there is something I haven&#x27;t seen mentioned and that is all the district support staff. Her district had literally hundreds of high paid support staff. Many were older former teachers that either wanted out of the classroom or were moved to a support position instead of being let go, often with a pay raise.<p>Eliminating all the unnecessary support positions and dividing those salaries amongst teachers could result in a more balanced salary for teachers.
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zarro超过 5 年前
The problem with the teacher pay to me is obvious, market forces aren&#x27;t allowed to play themselves out.<p>Think about it: A teacher should be paid according to their skill, supply, and demand. A great teachers time is highly valuable and there should never be a cap on how much they make or considerations on such an important task to hinder on concepts such as tenure.<p>If I hire a private teacher for my kids to teach them programming, I know that a great teacher has options to go work anywhere and I need to pay enough to afford a good one. I might get a couple friends kids to join to afford his time. Put together a few different subjects and all of the sudden you have a school.<p>So the question is why is this simple concept not being followed? The answer is lack of accountability, artificial barriers to entry, limitations on control to pick your instructors, standardized testing requirements, checkbox mentality, teachers unions, etc.<p>Steve Jobs was right, if were going to continue taking money from peoples paychecks to fund a dilapidated educational system, we are much better off giving the money we spend on a kids education directly to the parents (with the obligation to spend it only on education), and letting them select the course of education for their own kids themselves.
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p4bl0超过 5 年前
The article is completely US-centric, but the subject isn&#x27;t. Teacher&#x27;s pay in France is quite low, from primary school to university. I&#x27;m an associate professor of compsci in France and, after 4 years, I make less than 2200€&#x2F;month (it starts under 2000€ at the beginning). I should get to 3000€ 15 years from now. A typical mid- and high-school teacher is paid less than that and can only hope to get to 3000€ by the very end of their career. Most primary school teachers are paid just above the minimum legal salary which is a bit under 1200€.
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vondur超过 5 年前
Here in California, teachers make decent money now. The starting salary in Long Beach Unified is 60k&#x2F;year. It&#x27;s not uncommon for veteran teachers with Master&#x27;s Degrees in Education to earn 6 figure salaries.
jshaqaw超过 5 年前
The article spends surprisingly little time valuing the retirement pension and benefits packages that teachers in a place like NY State receive. That would make this analysis more relevant.
adamsea超过 5 年前
Let&#x27;s also bear in mind that if we want to think of teaching as a high-skill profession equivalent to doctor, lawyer, software engineer, etc, then we should be looking at the upper end of professional salaries when evaluating teacher salaries, not the median.<p>Considering the outcome a good teacher can have on the life a child (even though it may be hard to measure that) I think it makes sense to imagine teaching as such.
yellowapple超过 5 年前
&gt; Unlike in the EPI analysis, however, teachers (the black dots on the chart) receive a salary premium of 9% once their shorter work year is accounted for.<p>This is exactly where the article fell apart for me. There is no &quot;shorter work year&quot;. Assuming that a teacher has zero work responsibilities when school&#x27;s &quot;out&quot; (even setting aside summer school programs, &quot;track&quot;-based schedules, etc.) betrays a gross misunderstanding of exactly how much work a typical teacher has to do outside of class hours. Lesson planning alone is a major time sink, especially at a middle or high school level when you&#x27;ll often be teaching entirely different classes with entirely different curricula (for example: a history teacher might be teaching both regular and AP variants of both US History and US Government; this is, in fact, exactly what my grandpa did).
brodouevencode超过 5 年前
I want to do an analysis of the number of upvotes on a HN post versus the number of comments. I have a hunch that if the number of comments greatly exceeds the number of upvotes it&#x27;s a politically charged post.
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filmgirlcw超过 5 年前
I&#x27;m not an educator but my mom is a retired school psychologist and my father used to be on my county&#x27;s school board, so I grew up around teachers&#x2F;educators.<p>I will acknowledge that in many parts of the country, teacher pay is atrocious -- especially in high cost of living areas -- but I do think the conventional wisdom that teachers are hideously underpaid for what they do isn&#x27;t exactly true.<p>Take my mom for instance. She got a BS in journalism, worked as an editor for a few years and then after getting pregnant with my older sister, was a stay at home mom for 14 years. She went back to work -- initially part-time, then full-time, when I was 8 years old.<p>Now, her specialty (school counseling -- which then became school psychology), requires a Masters, so she got that when I was in kindergarten and she was like 41. She followed this up by getting her Ed.S a few years later (while working full time) and then got her Ph.D (ditto) -- back then (early 90s), they didn&#x27;t have the online&#x2F;paint-by-numbers grad school programs they have now -- so she&#x27;d go to class a few nights a week after work and then full-time in the summer. (Side note, I fell in love with college libraries when I was 6 years old and would spend summer afternoons with her at UGA, while she was studying).<p>So she&#x27;s 43 when she starts working (Masters), is maybe 45 or 46 when she gets her specialist, and then was like 50 or 51 when she got her Ph.D. I point this out b&#x2F;c this is relatively late in life for most people to become educators. Many of her peers were in their late 20s or early 30s and those closer to her age had been working for 15+ years. I will add that a key thing here is that she was smart and achieved tenure VERY early. If you don&#x27;t have tenure, you&#x27;re fucked.<p>I think she was probably making close to $100k a year when she retired early in 2013 or 2014. Now, that&#x27;s probably less than most Ph.Ds make -- and it is certainly less than she could make in private practice -- but considering the fact that she worked 9 months a year and lived in the suburbs, that&#x27;s not bad.<p>Moreover, even though she retired 22 or 23 years in -- meaning she didn&#x27;t do the &quot;minimum&quot; for full retirement -- she still got a really good retirement package from both the state and the county.<p>My mom loves retirement -- but what lots of teachers&#x2F;counselors&#x2F;educators do, is they retire after they do 25 or 30 years (so if you start teaching at 22, you&#x27;re like 50 when you reach full retirement), get their full retirement, and then get hired back either part-time or three-quarter time (and in some cases, full-time), at a salaried rate. They can do this and still earn their retirement. (You don&#x27;t get dual retirements after the fact, I don&#x27;t think -- unless you were in multiple counties&#x2F;states)<p>So my mom has friends who &quot;retired&quot; at 48 -- then went right back to work and essentially get double their pay, plus benefits.<p>I would also add that benefits are one of the areas where being a teacher is really valuable. With the price of health care, having high-quality insurance that is free or very inexpensive, is a reason many people (especially women) are in education.<p>That was part of my mom&#x27;s impetus -- my dad is an entrepreneur (real estate) and shit got bad and she needed to make sure we&#x27;d have good insurance and other protections as a family. She loved what she did (and was fantastic at it), but part of the reason she became a counselor (and later school psychologist) was because it would allow her to be off during the summer&#x27;s when I was home -- and allow her to be home in the evenings (when she wasn&#x27;t doing the grad school years) for the family.<p>I&#x27;m not a parent -- but I can&#x27;t discount the value of having that kind of flexibility -- even if it means you make less than what you could. Because my dad primarily worked for himself, my mom having summers off meant we had a lot more flexibility as a family for things like summer vacations or cruises over spring break.<p>And not to say that education isn&#x27;t stressful -- but there is also more flexibility in the job itself than in something like say, tech. She was always able to take me to my doctor appointments growing up and handle other issues that might come up. When my grandmother was diagnosed with Alzheimers and had to go into assisted living and later a nursing home -- my mom had flexibility in her benefits to take time off to travel to Florida to help her elderly parents (and a sister who lived there and did much of the work). There was a &quot;pool&quot; her county offered employees to donate some of their sick leave into that would act as insurance for other employees in that pool if they needed to exceed their own sick leave&#x2F;personal days in the event of an emergency or personal event that didn&#x27;t rise to the level of going on temporary disability.<p>So yes -- part of me fully acknowledges that teachers&#x2F;educators are often paid less than what their skills might get in a different sector. And I fully acknowledge that not all parts of the country are as good as the county where my mom worked. But when you look beyond just the pay and you include the time off, the benefits, the retirement (I mean, I&#x27;ll never have a pension at my six figure job), and the flexibility -- it&#x27;s not quite as bad as it appears either.
heyiforgotmypwd超过 5 年前
This is very an ignorant, biased and misleading article.<p>1) Not every educator is a teacher. Teachers are paid the most and have the best organized labor representation, while substitute teachers and T-A&#x27;s are lucky if they get enough hours to qualify for benefits.<p>2) Not everyone lives in a rich area of a big city. Smaller communities typically don&#x27;t have the tax base to pay livable wages. Cost of living maybe less, but the absolute buying power of educators in rural area is next to nil.<p>Also, here&#x27;s some anecdotal personal data-points:<p>- My half sister and her husband are special ed. T-A&#x27;s. They&#x27;re on food stamps.<p>- Talk to elderly homeless, saner people. You&#x27;d be surprised how many were teachers or in the education.
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markvdb超过 5 年前
Where does this come from?<p><a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;en.wikipedia.org&#x2F;wiki&#x2F;National_Affairs" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;en.wikipedia.org&#x2F;wiki&#x2F;National_Affairs</a>
xer0x超过 5 年前
This article does not seem like the &quot;truth&quot;. I&#x27;d really like it be true, and for our countries to value education. It doesn&#x27;t seem like the case.
planetzero超过 5 年前
One of my relatives retired from teaching a couple of years ago. She had guaranteed raises every year and ended up making close to $100,000&#x2F;year.
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OBLIQUE_PILLAR超过 5 年前
National Affairs dot com is published by the extreme right wing think tank The Claremont Institute, started by the man who came up with Barry Goldwater&#x27;s line &quot;Extremism in the defense of liberty is no vice.&quot;
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thowthisaway超过 5 年前
most elementary school teachers are earning $95K+ in San Diego, CA.
vkhn超过 5 年前
I am willing to accept that there are studies and statistics that seem to contradict what is commonly accepted. I&#x27;m also willing to accept a lot of the evidence here that the problem is not nearly as bad as believed.<p>This was, however, clearly written by statisticians that have no teacher friends or family. If they did, they would have asked more relevant questions of the data. For example WHY do teachers work &quot;on average 40.6 hours during the work week, compared to 42.4 hours for private-sector professionals&quot;.<p>My wife is a teacher, and I can tell you exactly why.<p>Also, I laughed particularly hard at &quot;teaching jobs are not particularly stressful or unpleasant compared to other occupations&quot;<p>Hilarious.
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ArtDev超过 5 年前
I was just talking to my daughter about why her teachers might be grumpy. Low pay, high stress, high responsibility jobs will do that.<p>If you ever wonder if they underpaid, go ask one. They would be happy to complain, I am sure.<p>&quot;Well,I don&#x27;t want to be a teacher&quot;,my daughter said. &quot;Well I don&#x27;t blame you&quot;, I said.
thrower123超过 5 年前
The biggest thing with teacher salaries that people usually forget is that you have to multiply by 1.2 to 1.25 to get the equivalent for a 9-5 job that works year round, if you want to compare apples to pomegranates. My mother as a school teacher worked 190 days a year. I work 245 days a year.<p>Granted, you&#x27;re going to struggle to pull in the same kind of hourly rate during the summers working a seasonal job, unless it is something special. But, if you have a family, your kids are going to be off school anyway, so you could actually spend some time with them. There&#x27;s some trade offs.
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gridlockd超过 5 年前
Why do teachers have such an elevated standing in society anyways? If we&#x27;re being honest, schools are, for the most part, daycare centers. Secondary education is, for the most part, completely useless.<p>Yet, unlike with most other professions, the government guarantees that those glorified daycare jobs will continue to exist. Why <i>should</i> these jobs pay well?
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