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Computer Files Are Going Extinct

343 点作者 respinal超过 5 年前

37 条评论

cproctor超过 5 年前
To a computer science teacher, this feels like trying to walk up a down escalator.<p>First-year CS students (middle school or high school) with experience using Apple products don&#x27;t have a concept of a filesystem. The shift to auto-saving documents also corrodes the intuition that files get stored on disk in some non-magical way. In the same way that it&#x27;s now easier to teach networking and graph theory because youth experience identity and relationships this way, it&#x27;s now a lot harder to teach lower-level abstractions. In my experience, this has changed over the last five years.
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ACS_Solver超过 5 年前
One of my greatest culture shocks in terms of technology was around 6 years ago when I received an iPad, having no experience with Apple products. After the initial setup, the first thing I wanted was to transfer some files - TV episodes and PDFs - to the device. My first attempt was to SSH into it, only to discover that&#x27;s not an option, and would require a third-party app store and jailbreak. Then I just connected the iPad to my PC by cable, expecting to see a mass storage device. No luck. Likewise, no luck finding a file explorer on the iPad.<p>The iPad is strongly tied to the workflow that Apple suggests, and that&#x27;s a workflow that removes files as a concept, abstracting them away. It&#x27;s quite possibly a genius approach in terms of how accessible it is to non-tech people, even though it doesn&#x27;t sit right with me.
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_Understated_超过 5 年前
&gt; all culture, raging over us, for $12.99 a month (or $15.99 for HD) as long as we keep up our payments like good economic entities. When we stop paying, we’re left with nothing. No files. The service is revoked.<p>This is the most frightening thing for me... by far: the concept that I no longer have control of the destiny of my own shit. Mine. Stuff I created.<p>I understand the concept of how cloud storage works: &quot;hey, we&#x27;ll look after it for you, back it up and stuff, and all you need to do it pay us a small monthly fee&quot;.<p>Makes sense.<p>But add to that fact that if you stop paying they&#x27;ll keep you from your stuff. Also if they don&#x27;t like you for practically any reason they&#x27;ll keep you from your stuff. Or if they suffer a huge data loss they&#x27;ll claim that the T&#x27;s and C&#x27;s protect them and they&#x27;ll still keep you from your stuff.<p>What the hell are we sleep-walking into here?<p>Caveat: I&#x27;m a tech. I have a local copy, a local backup (that I rotate on an ad-hoc basis with the other HD at my mum and dads house) and an offsite cloud-backup (using Sync) so I&#x27;m covered but this stuff isn&#x27;t aimed at me, it&#x27;s aimed at my mum and my non-tech friends who just think &quot;hey, it&#x27;s &lt;mega-corp&gt;. They&#x27;ve got thousands of people and loads of equipment and they know what they&#x27;re doing!&quot;<p>They sure do!
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dangus超过 5 年前
The article just felt...unjustifiably alarmist to me.<p>Most non-technical people I know <i>cannot manage files</i> even after decades of computing experience. I understand why many services try to abstract or simplify the concept.<p>For example, Google or Apple is processing the crap out of your email attachment image because they know you don’t understand the idea that trying to send five 10MB photos likely will not fit in an email. All you want to do is send your photos to Grandma. So instead your iDevice handles it for you and either compresses them or throws them in a temporary cloud storage location with a link. Grandma gets her photos - for most people the alternative is a confusing mail delivery bounce followed by frustration.<p>Apple added Stacks to the desktop because everyone’s tired of seeing other people’s computers with a mess of icons smashed together on the desktop, because that’s the only place files could be conceivably stored in the mind of a non-technical user. The whole idea of a file hierarchy seems either too confusing or too labor intensive to that type of user.<p>Nerds like us always have and had options. We are aware and capable of coming up with a more friendly solution to us, like a home built NAS or Synology box; ask a non-technical user what those are and be met with a blank stare.<p>For most people, they really should be paying someone else to maintain their data, iCloud, Google or whatever. Nobody’s home back up scheme can match what these companies are doing in their data centers. And no, these services don’t just delete your data immediately after your monthly payment method bounces - you are given time and nags to download your data or renew, often your data just becomes download-only.<p>Are we annoyed that most options are not for us, or have to be in a form of a workaround to a technology stack that’s marketed to non-technical people? Maybe. It would be wonderful if there was a device as nice as an iPad that also gave us full access like a Linux PC.<p>But also, nobody’s forcing us in 2019 to stop using our files as we did in 1999. We didn’t <i>have</i> all these services back then. File management was <i>the</i> option. It is still an option.<p>And in 2019, Apple finally adds mass storage support to the iPad. Sometimes things come around.
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esotericn超过 5 年前
You can pry my files from my cold dead hands.<p>What amuses me about all of this is that it seems to just further cement software developers as magicians. Back in the day it was the Windows control panel.<p>Nowadays? I have direct experience with tons of people navigating cloud service settings or whatever else via endless GUIs. Just give me the filesystem. It&#x27;s all a bunch of JSON configs or whatever anyway. find -name blah -execdir sed -i blah. Bosh.<p>Well, I&#x27;ll never struggle for work at least. Perhaps this is our &#x27;guild&#x27;...?
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maliker超过 5 年前
I don&#x27;t understand how people can get work done in the post-file world. Any project I&#x27;ve got that&#x27;s more complicated than a todo list has text files, images, code, links to websites, emails, and typeset documents. The only thing that holds all that stuff, organizes it into folders, lets me edit&#x2F;run it, and makes the content searchable is a filesystem. Maybe my standards for usability are too high.
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arch-ninja超过 5 年前
There is value in knowing there are 2 demographics: most people use apps and don&#x27;t care how the app handles it&#x27;s data; indeed the app usually alters the user&#x27;s behaviour.<p>Some people run the opposite: they instruct apps and the app had better use the data given in the format given or the user moves to another app (or writes their own).<p>Someday I hope the second demographic&#x27;s lifestyle is taught in highschools, because it is socially healthier.
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BeetleB超过 5 年前
This is why years ago I switched to a static site generator. Using something like Django was fragile. My provider would change some library and poof - the site is down. I don&#x27;t use my site often (post on it once every so many months) - so I simply switched. Never gone down since then.<p>A few days ago I opened a Jupyter notebook I had authored in 2015 - and it failed to reproduce my results. I relied on pandas, and pandas has gone through API changes. Fortunately, it wasn&#x27;t hard for me to search around for the newer versions of those APIs and fix things - but this is only 4 years after I authored it. Can I have any confidence that 20 years from now I could reproduce the results - or even find <i>documentation</i> for the APIs I used to understand exactly what I was doing?<p>I mean sure - I could put the OS and all the libraries needed to reproduce the work in a container and be guaranteed[1] it&#x27;ll run later, but the only people who will do that are those who need to for regulatory compliance[2].<p>[1] Not really. The software to run the container may no longer be supported, and the people with the knowledge may charge more than most can afford to get it to work.<p>[2] Something we&#x27;re dealing with at work these days. Writing stuff for the automotive industry and they expect that any software + tools should work 15-20 years from now. Same level of expectation for availability as any other car part. Now that there is so much SW in modern cars, this is a good opportunity for being a consultant 15-20 years from now!
jacquesm超过 5 年前
Of course they are. That&#x27;s just part of the pendulum swinging towards centralization. Files, <i>your</i> files, are an obstacle to centralization so you should lose your ability to access them.<p>So no more books in your library, just <i>access</i> to books through a device under the control of some large - usually American - entity. No more music collections, just <i>access</i> to someone else&#x27;s music collection. Ditto for movies, you don&#x27;t have your own copies, there is just <i>access</i> on a pay-per-view basis.<p>And of course only the &#x27;proper&#x27; artists, movie production houses and writers will be available.<p>I refuse to play this game. I have my own collection of music, books and movies. Yes, it takes up space. But that&#x27;s fine with me, at least no billionaire will be able to dictate what I can read, view or listen to.<p>Extending this to your personal files was an obvious move.
mellowdream超过 5 年前
This is what I&#x27;m gonna link to my friends the next time they make fun of me for being a green-texter.<p>This is exactly the story I went through a few years back as well. I had an iPhone 4? 9-ish years ago when I was in a music-kleptomania frenzy (back when what.cd was around too ;) ), and I remember just how frustrating it was dragging and dropping shit through iTunes all the time. Same for movies, photos, and documents! I couldn&#x27;t see the appeal of using the iPhone at all - why would somebody use this when they could just plug an Android device into their PC and use their file explorer? (The update to iOS7 was the nail in the coffin - I found the neon design just repulsive.)<p>I guess my question is - has the Apple &quot;ecosystem&quot; gotten better for this? Can I actually edit metadata for .mp3s and .mp4s and just drop them into an iPhone or iPad now? And copy them out as well or download them offline, bit for bit? If so, are dongles still the norm?<p>*An aside - I&#x27;ve definitely eased up on the file-ownership thing now. I just let YouTube Premium handle everything. It was definitely a waste of time retagging thousands of music files out of some strange ownership OCD. I see it as a net positive overall - now I just find it amazing that someone even uploaded some white-label vinyl-only run-of-100 Foul Play UK garage record (and similar records going for &gt;$100 on discogs - maybe even ownership has its limits?) at 128kbps at all, even if it doesn&#x27;t stay there forever :)
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mpweiher超过 5 年前
The reports of the death of the file(system) are grossly exaggerated.<p>And it&#x27;s not been for lack of trying.<p>While I share many of the author&#x27;s misgivings, files are actually making a bit of a comeback. After many years of trying to void the very idea of a file, Apple was essentially forced to introduce the <i>Files</i> app for iOS and introduce mass-storage support for (some) iPads. This is a good sign.<p>The anti-file movement has also been very strong and vocal in the programming world, where many claim that many if not all of our programming problems would go away if only we put our code in databases, or (Smalltalk) images instead. Yet the files, they persist.<p>That doesn&#x27;t mean that files, or hierarchical filesystems, are perfect. However, whatever the problems (&quot;Unititled 54.txt&quot;, anyone?), the proposed cures for what ails files invariably appear to be worse than the symptoms. And almost inevitably, we have to bring back or reinvent the very same concepts that we gleefully got rid of. That&#x27;s a resilient concept! One that is apparently useful and pertinent at a somewhat deeper level than we fully understand.<p>So how about we stop trying to &quot;get rid of files&quot;, but instead see if we cannot improve the concept and the mechanism(s) to fix the problems.
submeta超过 5 年前
I haven&#x27;t seen many non-tech people who manage their files in a systematic way. Most non-tech people don&#x27;t have a naming convention for their files (seen many files named &quot;letter.doc&quot; or &quot;shmith.doc&quot; or &quot;smith2.doc&quot;), let alone a predefined folder structure for their files. What I have seen most of the time is this: A desktop full of files, hundreds, even thousands of files, some within folders, some flat. A chaos.<p>I am a tech person. I do organise my files in folders. And I don&#x27;t want any other organizing principle for my documents. But I realize that this concept does not work for most other people.
amelius超过 5 年前
Perhaps one day we can store stuff directly into a transactional database. I&#x27;d actually love to see an OS based on this principle.
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JulianMorrison超过 5 年前
Files were an abstraction that appeared as well as disappeared in my lifetime, at least on home computers - before them, you were saving direct to the medium which was mostly audio magtape. And I&#x27;ve honestly never really liked them.<p>Files get lost in the clutter, get overwritten or corrupted, don&#x27;t get saved when you crash, are on this computer and not that one, don&#x27;t make it across when you transition to a newer box, have to be mailed around or put on (gasp) physical media and passed around like a crude lump of plastic. And then your media gets a virus, oops.<p>It was an improvement to autosave. It was an improvement to version. It was an improvement to distribute across redundant backups. It was an improvement, to be able to get at it from anywhere.<p>There&#x27;s UI issues in the new way of doing things, but that seems likely to shake out with experience. Files were often clunky at first too.
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carapace超过 5 年前
Files and directories are not a great abstraction. Never have been.<p>E.g. the insides of git are much better (although the abstractions layered on top are fucking gruesome.)<p>Something like IPFS is an obvious way forward. <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;ipfs.io&#x2F;" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;ipfs.io&#x2F;</a>
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proc0超过 5 年前
Non-technical people will not hesitate to adopt online services to manage their data. I have a dropbox and other services of my own, but I&#x27;m talking about the mainstream apps mentioned in the article that also have a purpose.<p>People completely ignore the fact you would have no access to this data if you have no online connection (or access to the account). It&#x27;s not that files are going away, it&#x27;s that they&#x27;re being increasingly managed by tech companies, and normal people don&#x27;t know any better, as evident by the article&#x27;s title... it shows the author doesn&#x27;t what files are for and that they are invisibly managed by a third party.
hakfoo超过 5 年前
I wonder if this is a variation on a business anti-pattern we see in a lot of other places:<p>&quot;It&#x27;s better to acquire a new customer at any cost, versus retaining an existing one.&quot;<p>There are plenty of verticals where if you develop a piece of software that&#x27;s blunt, direct, and full of power-user features, it won&#x27;t take off because it gets panned as &quot;too hard to use.&quot;<p>Tricks like abstracting where and how the data is stored tend to be appealing to non-skilled users. They see &quot;look how easy, I don&#x27;t have to figure out which files are in the cloud and which are on disc, and can&#x27;t accidentally try to open a spreadsheet in the photo editor.&quot; New users buy into it, the developers get their hockey-stick growth chart and everyone declares victory. After a few months, a small percentage of users end up dropping the product with a migraine because they can&#x27;t break out of the jails and abstractions that are clearly standing in the way of improved productivity.<p>No real point in satisfying those users anyway-- they&#x27;ve already paid, so there&#x27;s no further value they can provide to your ecosystem.
Ididntdothis超过 5 年前
My major concern is that data backup is getting more and more difficult. I feel it&#x27;s increasingly more difficult to figure out what to back up and how to restore it. I have heard several horror stories from people who messed up something and had all their cloud data disappear forever.
anderspitman超过 5 年前
If this resonates with you, I&#x27;d invite you to follow my work on MooseDrive [0]. I&#x27;m calling it a &quot;data ownership&quot; company. The product is focused on storage for developers.<p>[0] <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;moosedrive.io" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;moosedrive.io</a>
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verdverm超过 5 年前
Would read, but alas, behind the medium paywall...<p>Aren&#x27;t all things in computers eventually a file (descriptor)?<p>And with the rate of data volume increasing, things going the opposite of the headline?<p>And with the cloud, they are being replicated multiple times there and locally?
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anderspitman超过 5 年前
&gt; Years ago websites were made of files; now they are made of dependencies.
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rhizome超过 5 年前
File this next to &quot;Mouse buttons are going extinct, because Apple.&quot;
brian_herman超过 5 年前
Can medium go extinct first?
mark_l_watson超过 5 年前
I couldn’t read this medium article, it said that I had read too many free articles this month, but hopefully this is relevant: files “are back” in iPadOS. Most iPad apps had interoperability with data in other apps, when it made sense but now with the new File app, I am increasingly doing more on my iPad Pro. I have a GPU rig for deep learning, and use a MacBook for Lisp and Haskell hacking, but now most of my time is spent on an iPad doing research, writing, and entertainment.
whyleyc超过 5 年前
&quot;Files are dead&quot; is an oft-quoted meme, but they aren&#x27;t going away anytime soon.<p>I wrote a piece offering a counterpoint to this view five years ago (in response to a similar article by Fred Wilson) and I think most of the points still hold true today:<p><a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;blog.zamzar.com&#x2F;2015&#x2F;01&#x2F;02&#x2F;why-fred-wilson-is-wrong-files-arent-dead&#x2F;" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;blog.zamzar.com&#x2F;2015&#x2F;01&#x2F;02&#x2F;why-fred-wilson-is-wrong-...</a>
thrower123超过 5 年前
I find myself very frustrated using newer versions of the Microsoft Office suite. When I want to save a file, I just want the tried-and-true Windows file dialog popped up, but instead I have to click around and avoid going into weird Onedrive dialogs.<p>I save everything to OneDrive anyway, but I&#x27;m a not-so-old fogey that is more comfortable using the filesystem myself, rather than crummy layers stuck on top of it.
smitty1e超过 5 年前
&gt; Files are skeuomorphic. That’s a fancy word that just means they’re a digital concept that mirrors a physical item.<p>So, the digital equivalent of <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;en.m.wikipedia.org&#x2F;wiki&#x2F;Onomatopoeia" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;en.m.wikipedia.org&#x2F;wiki&#x2F;Onomatopoeia</a>
neonate超过 5 年前
<a href="http:&#x2F;&#x2F;archive.is&#x2F;2t5BK" rel="nofollow">http:&#x2F;&#x2F;archive.is&#x2F;2t5BK</a>
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lewisjoe超过 5 年前
Remember &quot;Worse is Better&quot; by Gabriel? Lisp was a correct, consistent and complete system, prioritizing these over simplicity. C, on the other hand, was a simple system but not nearly as much complete, consistent or correct as Lisp. Nevertheless, Lisp lost to C.<p>This is what happens when Capitalism meets Software. When it comes to winning markets, shipping simple stuff is always better than shipping a slightly more complex (in terms of code as well as UX) but correct stuff. That is why most companies prioritize feature development over bugfixes. That is why selecting multiple items from a list is still inconsistent across the web. That is why XMPP lost and Whatsapp and Messenger are winning.<p>There are efforts like Solid (<a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;solid.inrupt.com" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;solid.inrupt.com</a>) by Tim Berners-Lee himself that&#x27;s trying to bring back the concept of files and data-ownership to end-users, to enforce correctness and consistency. But I&#x27;m still skeptical if the efforts will ever win the market.
anaphor超过 5 年前
Your database (in the context of things like blogs and so on) is a filesystem, it&#x27;s just built on top of a higher level abstraction than traditional filesystems.
nintendo1889超过 5 年前
It reminds me of Stallman&#x27;s best quote: the computer industry is more fashionable than the women&#x27;s fashion industry.
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dehrmann超过 5 年前
Some of this is that the file&#x2F;folder abstraction is inadequate for organizing large amounts of data.
jradd超过 5 年前
files are an abstraction and reference to objects in memory. The only problem I see is storage life cycle without cache in volatile plus redundant non-volatile memory. Same problem for blocks and segments, no?
pointerpointer超过 5 年前
I can imagine corporations totally like the idea of users not being able to save their own precious data to a file. In the end they want to own and control your data as much as possible for profit and power. And they sell that idea by telling you it&#x27;s more convenient. As if it were not possible to create great file management tools or maybe even your own files as a database that you can manage easily.<p>Same with the &#x27;cloud&#x27;. What&#x27;s the difference between running your own FTP server and a cloud server? Technically not that much IMAO, only the latter means the data is controlled by some corporation running that server. And why is there hardly any progress in the area of building a private turn-key &#x27;cloud&#x27; server so you don&#x27;t need gmail, dropbox, github, etc..? I&#x27;m sure it can be made, easy to setup, robust, with backup, you name it, just like a Mac pc that&#x27;s made for non technical people. We know how to build it, but we don&#x27;t do it, we build for corporations instead.<p>The further we go down this road the less control we will have, and the ramifications of that don&#x27;t look pretty to me to say the least.
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PavlovsCat超过 5 年前
A HN comment from 2 years ago I bookmarked: <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;news.ycombinator.com&#x2F;item?id=15235151" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;news.ycombinator.com&#x2F;item?id=15235151</a><p>The war on general computing implies disempowering users, rather than empowering them. But that it&#x27;s &quot;not surprising&quot; doesn&#x27;t mean it&#x27;s good, or that it can&#x27;t be reversed.<p>I wonder what associations for craftsmanship in software, respect for users, and similar things there are? If there was a web ring about that, I would browse it.
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psilocipher超过 5 年前
Files will never go &quot;extinct&quot;. Files exist. They will continue to exist. You people are insane.
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aurora72超过 5 年前
The author says &quot;everyone started to use Spotify&quot; Everyone? Yeah everyone with their shiny $1000+ iFon toys in their hands doing touch gestures.
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