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ACM considered harmful

233 点作者 pietrofmaggi超过 14 年前

34 条评论

zdw超过 14 年前
(disclosure, I'm an ACM member, and a IEEE/Usenix/SAGE/LOPSA member as well)<p>Professional organizations have trouble with their revenue models.<p>The journal publishing business that the ACM and IEEE are in isn't sustainable long term, and drives people away or causes perverse benefit schemes, similar to how newspaper's business models fell apart in the last 10 years.<p>A better method would be to focus on conferences and community, which is more of the way that Usenix and LOPSA work.<p>That said, there's some solid stuff in the ACM journals, and their membership fees aren't all that crazy.<p>I can't wait until the dead tree editions of their publications go away.
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bcantrill超过 14 年前
So, some disclaimers: I sit on the ACM's Professions Board, and am a member of the CACM Editorial Board, where I sit on the board for the Practice section of CACM, also known as ACM Queue. That said, I speak only for myself here, not for ACM or the Professions Board or Queue Board.<p>Disclaimers dispensed with, let me say that I personally sympathize with the complaints, especially with respect to the practitioner. The Digital Library (DL) is, in a word, overpriced with respect to the practitioner, and I believe that the ACM can both increase its membership base and better (and more broadly) monetize the DL by using it as more of a loss-leader with the practitioner. The good news is that the ACM is quite receptive to this at its highest levels, and I believe that the chances for reform (at least with respect to the practitioner) are very good.<p>And indeed, this is the good news about ACM more broadly: the organization wants to change, especially with respect to the practitioner. One would be right to question this, but trust that I came to this conclusion only reluctantly and in the presence of overwhelming evidence -- a path that I outlined here:<p><a href="http://dtrace.org/blogs/bmc/2009/05/15/queue-cacm-and-the-rebirth-of-the-acm/" rel="nofollow">http://dtrace.org/blogs/bmc/2009/05/15/queue-cacm-and-the-re...</a><p>I would repeat here my plea from that blog entry: the ACM has given practitioners a new voice, but we must engage with the ACM to use it. We must move beyond merely "considering the ACM harmful" and point to new models that work for our profession and its society. In short, the ACM is willing to follow, but we practitioners must light the way!
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jwr超过 14 年前
Oh, the number of times I've bouced off ACM's paywall. It's maddening to see an article that you think will let you make progress in a problem you're working on, but unable to access it because of the $15 fee.<p>And paying the membership fees is not a solution, either — if you are an ACM member, you probably still need access to IEEE body of publications, and then there is Elsevier/Springer/others…
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rlpb超过 14 年前
The ACM won't stop spamming me. "Your invitation to become a member", they say. Following the unsubscribe instructions doesn't work. Blocking the sending address doesn't work (they keep changing it). I've resorted to blacklisting *@acm.org.<p>I'm not the only one, either: <a href="http://gmplib.org/~tege/acmspam.html" rel="nofollow">http://gmplib.org/~tege/acmspam.html</a> <a href="http://fries.net/~david/thoughts/ACM_membership_spam.php" rel="nofollow">http://fries.net/~david/thoughts/ACM_membership_spam.php</a><p>&#60;/rant&#62;
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PaulHoule超过 14 年前
Personally, I'm bothered that the ACM is an organization for academic researchers and doesn't seem to give a damn about practitioners in the field.<p>I quit my ACM membership when I got sick of continuous hand-wringing editorials asking "Why don't women want to study CS?" and "Why don't undergraduates want to study CS?"<p>The ACM never seriously considers that undergrads who might study CS might know people who've chosen computing in a career and discovered that they hit a big glass ceiling in their 30's.<p>If the ACM started to ask the question of "What happens to CS graduates?" and thinking about career paths in the profession, they might find that the answers for the problems that keep them up at night might come naturally.
mahmud超过 14 年前
Computing progresses <i>despite</i> the ACM.<p>Kent Pitman has a similar stance:<p><a href="http://www.nhplace.com/kent/PFAQ/acm.html" rel="nofollow">http://www.nhplace.com/kent/PFAQ/acm.html</a>
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RKlophaus超过 14 年前
Grrrr... I can relate. Here's my ACM story:<p>I presented at CUFP '10 a while back, which is associated with the ACM. Even though I was a speaker, they charged me full ticket price to get <i>into</i> the conference.<p>When I balked at paying to speak, the representative replied:<p>"Well, it's either buy a ticket or wait outside until right before your presentation, and then leave the room immediately after it."<p>To cap it all off, the video of my presentation is now behind the members-only paywall. (<a href="http://bit.ly/fGjAaJ" rel="nofollow">http://bit.ly/fGjAaJ</a>)
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jeffreymcmanus超过 14 年前
The author's problem is with the academic publishing industry (which all pretty much operates in the same manner), not the ACM.<p>Because academic publishing is deeply intertwined with the process whereby professors are awarded promotions and tenure, there is very little impetus for reform here. It will take a generation or more for this problem to go away.
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gritzko超过 14 年前
From what I can say regarding CS conferences, ACM just rubberstamps and pockets the money. At one recent conference, the organizer addressed the concerns about high fees saying something like "well, most of it went to ACM, so we may hypothetically save on that, but we understand that the bulk of participants come from academia and they need the proceedings". Meanwhile, the "proceedings" are purely virtual, the same PDFs we submitted put online at ACM Digital Library. Bloodsuckers.
T_S_超过 14 年前
Journals are priced for institutional libraries. They still don't know how to address the non-affiliated scholar market.<p>While the industry evolves its business model we need to get stuff done. Here's a workaround: use Google Scholar.<p>Look for the link that says "All X versions". Find the free pdf pre-print, usually from on the author's home page. Works at least 80% of the time for me. The OP is right though, this doesn't work so well for older pre-interwebs articles.
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ahi超过 14 年前
For what it's worth, the executive director made 480k plus ~27k in benefits for FY ending 6/30/2009.<p>Revenue breakdown:<p>Conferences &#38; Seminars: 23.25m<p>Publications: 14.8m<p>Membership Dues: 9.2m<p>Advertising: 1m
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rst超过 14 年前
The most important reason why the ACM's publishing model (and academic publishing generally) doesn't just dry up and blow away is that people on academic career tracks are judged by their publication record --- meaning publication in prestigious journals; putting the same text on a web site someplace doesn't count. So, if an academic doesn't let the ACM (or Elsevier, or someone else equally grabby) take control of their writing about their work, they effectively sacrifice a valuable career chit.<p>Unfortunately, less expensive alternatives are going to be hard to bootstrap: a new, no-name journal almost by definition hasn't had the chance to establish prestige by publishing papers which go on to get widely cited. And if the idea is to do the same job while sucking less money out of people, that leaves very little cash for promotion, or to compensate "big names" that might lend credibility to the project...
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teraflop超过 14 年前
<i>"The ACM, in common with other organizers, requires those who have papers published in its journals and conferences to sign over the copyright to them. This means that you can’t republish a paper elsewhere and that the ACM can charge for your writing without paying you any fee."</i><p>Really? So every CS researcher who posts their publications on their personal site is flagrantly violating ACM's copyright with no consequences? I don't see how this can be accurate.
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moomba超过 14 年前
Whenever I see the paywall come up when browsing the internet, I get the sick feeling I've been redirected to some Ponzi Scheme. Charging $15 for a 10 year old paper can be thought of nothing other than ridiculous.
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igrekel超过 14 年前
The 15$ per paper is expensive but the membership gives you access to all papers and is relatively inexpensive. If you need to access research material frequently, you are probably better off having a membership and an ieee membership as well. You employer may pay it for you or you may get tax deductions for these fees as well.
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jasonwatkinspdx超过 14 年前
Particularly now that much innovation in computing is happening in the developing world, the ACM's toll booth on reading the literature is especially repugnant.<p>Digital distribution is not costly. The definitive online library for CS should be free to read. If wikipedia et all can support themselves then it would be trivial for the equivalent of the ACM library to do likewise.<p>I do think it's reasonable for the ACM to charge for their other activities.
dkarl超过 14 年前
<i>But to access it, you need to login i.e. its not a resource for the profession but for members only.</i><p>Old-style professional societies aspire to be synonymous with the profession, and they work toward that by adding value that everyone in the profession will want.<p>Paying professional society dues is a normal thing in most professions. It isn't weird for the ACM to act this way; it's weird (or at least <i>new</i>) for people to want to work in a high-paying, technically specialized profession, not pay professional society dues, and still get all the benefits of a professional society. Hey, if you bring us that utopia, more power to you, but I don't see anything broken about the current model from an adult's point of view. Students and faculty get access through their university, and everyone else makes good enough money to pay ACM dues. The weak point is kids, who are excluded by the current system (which was never meant to work for kids) unless they live near a university.
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tomasr超过 14 年前
Maybe missing it, but strictly speaking as someone interested in reading (not publishing), I don't really see what the fuzz is. Been an ACM member for almost 10 years (started as a student member) and every single year I've been more than happy to renew my membership.<p>Sure, would be nice if everything was free, but all the stuff ACM does cost money, and honestly, the fees aren't all that outrageous, and the digital library access itself is very much worth it.<p>Rather like receiving Communications of the ACM every month (or close to it, anyway); I enjoy reading it and would totally forget about looking the articles online every month otherwise, so it's actually fairly convenient for me. Would much prefer that Queue had been kept around as a printed mag, though.
wildmXranat超过 14 年前
After being a member as a student, I signed-up for the regular account. Couple years of using it proved that it wasn't worth it.
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javert超过 14 年前
IEEE is, unfortunately, the exact same way.
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rmobin超过 14 年前
I work at a company called DeepDyve; we work with publishers to provide alternative (cheaper) access models to their content. We have an online-only viewer and let you view articles for a limited amount of time (we call it a rental). If you are interested, please give it a shot and let me know how sufficient of an alternative it is. We currently allow 1 free rental (which will work for our ACM content), but we'll be adding free trials for our subscription plans instead very soon. <a href="http://www.deepdyve.com" rel="nofollow">http://www.deepdyve.com</a> <a href="http://www.deepdyve.com/browse/publishers/association-for-computing-machinery" rel="nofollow">http://www.deepdyve.com/browse/publishers/association-for-co...</a>
jacoblyles超过 14 年前
Unfortunately the situation is far worse in other fields of knowledge. <i>Nature</i> magazine got in a big fight with the University of California last year when they tried to charge more than $1 million for the institution's subscription[1] (this for a journal written and refereed by volunteer labor), and the individual subscriptions are also outrageous.<p>It costs a lot of money to be able to stay on the forefront of human knowledge, even though the producers of that knowledge don't see a red cent.<p>[1]<a href="http://news.sciencemag.org/scienceinsider/2010/06/university-of-california-conside.html" rel="nofollow">http://news.sciencemag.org/scienceinsider/2010/06/university...</a>
perlgeek超过 14 年前
FWIW this problem exists in many other branches of science too. I'm glad that APS now has an option that the author of a paper can pay a fee for the peer review, and in turn obtains the right to make a copy of the paper publicly available ("open access").<p>It sounds a bit backwards, but in practice it works out (at least if your employer pays the open access fees, as mine does).<p>There are also peer reviewed Open Access journals, but mostly they don't have the same reputation and impact factors as the established ACM/APS/IEEE/whatever journals. Still <a href="http://www.doaj.org/" rel="nofollow">http://www.doaj.org/</a> is quite interesting.
sedachv超过 14 年前
I had a similar thought this morning when I found out some academic journals charge their <i>authors</i> to publish articles:<p><a href="http://news.ycombinator.net/item?id=2135236" rel="nofollow">http://news.ycombinator.net/item?id=2135236</a>
br1超过 14 年前
You can now also rent ACM papers via DeepDyve. The first one is free, so if you want to stick it to the man, register yourname+a@gmail.com, yourname+b@gmail.com, yourname+c@gmail.com ...
ffffruit超过 14 年前
Not entirely sure if this also applies to the CS domain (been quite a few years since I published a CS paper) but in the medical domain researchers are also presented with the option of publishing in an open access journal. For example, PLoS <a href="http://www.plos.org/" rel="nofollow">http://www.plos.org/</a>
__bjoernd超过 14 年前
The article is not completely correct about the copyright thing. As an ACM author you at least retain the right to publish the paper on your web site. This is much better than say for instance IEEE paper copyright regulations.
duncanj超过 14 年前
For those who want to know, ACM membership with access to all their journals (digital library) is $198/year. From developing countries, it is less. Choosing Poland as a random example, digital library access is $100/year.
GrooveStomp超过 14 年前
Wow, this is a fairly condemning portrayal of the ACM. Thankfully, I've only once or twice bounced off of their paywall, and otherwise have been happily ignorant of their existence.<p>[EDIT] Removed reference to article being anecdotal.
lanstein超过 14 年前
I love the link at the bottom to 'Goto Considered Harmful': <a href="http://www.u.arizona.edu/~rubinson/copyright_violations/" rel="nofollow">http://www.u.arizona.edu/~rubinson/copyright_violations/</a>
ylem超过 14 年前
I think the author of this piece misses a point. Let me take the example of the American Physical Society (APS). They have membership fees (required to go to their conferences) and journals which charge money for access. As with all academic publishing, you sign a copyright waiver (but you are allowed to post your article on your own homepage--also, for many of us, we initially publish things on arxiv.org in preliminary form (before peer review). So, you have two sources--the author if they choose to distribute it, and the arxiv for many papers (excepting breaking high profile papers that might appear in Science or Nature). Overall, the APS is relatively good--they provide much cheaper access rates to poorer institutions domestically (USA) and internationally.<p>Now, you might wonder--what is the value added that publishers provide? Governments pay for the research, government sponsored researchers do most of the initial typesetting/editing, and government sponsored researchers do the peer review. The answer is that publishers: 1) Screen the papers to send out for peer review --there is a lot of noise in submissions. Is this paper interesting or not? Does it pass the "sniff" test on technical correctness? To do this first pass requires editors with domain level knowledge of the field--they can skim the article if they are not experts and guess about impact/sniff/etc. They are familiar with the reputations of researchers. Essentially these are people with at least a PhD in the field and this is not cheap. 2) Again, the editors are acquainted with potential reviewers in the field. They have amassed a database of people who are good reviewers. For example, referee A always critical? Is referee B always a softee? Does referee C respond in a timely fashion? Does referee D always have his reviews overturned on appeal to an additional referee? Etc.<p>So, essentially, what you are paying for is screening out signal to noise. The first thing you might think of is, well, let the government step in. I think this would be very bad. Why? Because it would then be easy for the government to determine what gets published and what doesn't. Think climate change....<p>Next, you might think--ok, well what about open access? Again, the problem is that many open access journals (where the authors pay and the public reads for free) is that the prices to authors steadily increases and unless it is mandated, authors may seek other journals. Especially if the most prestigious journals are not open access.... Finally, you might ask, well, what about a technical solution? Hacker News for academic publishing, complete with automated tracking of referees, calculations of reputations based on citations, commenting, etc. But, then you'll bump into problems of avoiding winner take all and that for academic publishing, you want the comments and referee process to be deliberate and considered.<p>What I would suggest is that for the computer science community to work harder on posting things to the arxiv before submitting to ACM journals and if that's not possible, then lobbying for journals to accept this. Then, for people who are ok with the rough version, they can access it and for people with need/resources, they can access the final, polished, piece.<p>In the meantime, try writing the author if you need a paper. In the physics community, many authors are happy to send you a pdf file. One time there was a paper from an expensive publication that we didn't have access to that I wrote the author to request a copy from. He actually sent a reprint--from Japan!
edw519超过 14 年前
annoying != harmful<p>pet peeve != constructive criticism<p>sensational title != worthy content
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tmachinecharmer超过 14 年前
I love ArXiV :D
dzorz超过 14 年前
IEEE is much more expensive.