TE
科技回声
首页24小时热榜最新最佳问答展示工作
GitHubTwitter
首页

科技回声

基于 Next.js 构建的科技新闻平台,提供全球科技新闻和讨论内容。

GitHubTwitter

首页

首页最新最佳问答展示工作

资源链接

HackerNews API原版 HackerNewsNext.js

© 2025 科技回声. 版权所有。

Benjamin Libet's argument against free will is being questioned

88 点作者 badcede超过 5 年前

13 条评论

lordnacho超过 5 年前
&gt; He repeated Kornhuber and Deecke’s experiment, but asked his participants to watch a clocklike apparatus so that they could remember the moment they made a decision. The results showed that while the Bereitschaftspotential started to rise about 500 milliseconds before the participants performed an action, they reported their decision to take that action only about 150 milliseconds beforehand. “The brain evidently ‘decides’ to initiate the act” before a person is even aware that decision has taken place, Libet concluded.<p>I don&#x27;t get how people came to the original position. Why is this surprising? A simple model would be that the decision causes both the awareness and the action. Like when your program decides to move the robot arm and logs it, the log arrives before the movement, but one is not the cause of the other.<p>Also there&#x27;s a fair chance that whatever is taking in the external clock is adding lag. So your eyes might have been in front of a clock that said a certain time, but due to processing in wetware your awareness circuit has an old value.<p>Also it seems like a leap to say this is connected to free will. Whatever is causing the decision, how does the timing mean anything? It&#x27;s only acausal if you thought that awareness is what causes movement.
评论 #21488448 未加载
lootsauce超过 5 年前
Our will power is like a muscle and can get tired. What if we have free will that is not actually &quot;exercised&quot; all that often. Say 85% or more of our actions are basically pre-ordained by decisions we have previously fully internalized and so are basically automatic, but which still alighn with our general will. Thats like an inexpensive (cached) result from the will banks. Then actual &quot;exercise&quot; of free will comes about when the patterns for these cache lookups fail and we must decide. But not only that, it is not exercised unless our desire and our will diverge. If I desire a second slice of pie, but my will is to not over-eat, it requires effort (will-power) to follow through with my will. That is the exercise of free will and does not actually happen as often as we might think.
评论 #21487137 未加载
评论 #21492131 未加载
kazinator超过 5 年前
If your brain made decisions outside of your free will which you become conscious of after the fact, then that would manifest itself as a frequent conflict: we would often disagree with the action that was taken. Because we don&#x27;t disagree, it must be something that is integrated with will.<p>Concretely, we are not surprised that our finger moved; we believe we wanted to do that and we agree with that action.<p>Moreover, this readiness potential phenomenon works on short time scales. The will operates on long time scales. I can plan at 11:55 that I will move my finger at 12:00, five minutes ahead. And then when the time comes, do just that. Still, the readiness potential will play out the same way: the commands to move the finger precede the conscious awareness of the finger moving.
评论 #21490018 未加载
评论 #21486499 未加载
评论 #21486496 未加载
评论 #21486685 未加载
rpmisms超过 5 年前
I don&#x27;t see how the original experiment &quot;debunked&quot; free will. Wouldn&#x27;t the decision-making process spark neural activity?
评论 #21485736 未加载
评论 #21485803 未加载
评论 #21488964 未加载
评论 #21485833 未加载
k2xl超过 5 年前
Would love for someone to describe effectively what free will means. Because to me the concept itself doesn&#x27;t make much sense to me and never has.<p>I don&#x27;t have free will over my breathing, in one definition (since it can be consider &quot;involuntary&quot;). In another definition I could say I have free will over my breathing because I could hold my breath.<p>What is an example of free will? And what is hypothetical experiment that would actually prove or disprove it?
评论 #21487311 未加载
评论 #21487500 未加载
buboard超过 5 年前
Let&#x27;s say the question is not settled. There are experiments showing how one can predict a choice 7 seconds before.<p><a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.nature.com&#x2F;articles&#x2F;nn.2112" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.nature.com&#x2F;articles&#x2F;nn.2112</a>
pmoriarty超过 5 年前
What&#x27;s the &quot;reverse averaging&quot; that the article talks about?
raindeer3超过 5 年前
Would recommend everyone interested in the topic of Free will to listen to this episode of BBCs In our time: <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.bbc.co.uk&#x2F;programmes&#x2F;b00z5y9z" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.bbc.co.uk&#x2F;programmes&#x2F;b00z5y9z</a>
downerending超过 5 年前
Interesting science, but it&#x27;s not possible even principle that such experiments could determine the presence or absence of free will. It&#x27;s kind of like a child trying to figure out how Big Bird walks by studying the guts of a TV.
skissane超过 5 年前
How can you discuss free will and completely ignore the most basic philosophy on the topic, the distinction between compatibilist and incompatibilist definitions of it? Libet’s argument is an argument against incompatibilist free will (aka metaphysical libertarianism), not compatibilist free will. Whether or not it succeeds at that, it doesn’t disprove compatibilist free will in any way, it doesn’t even try to.
RcouF1uZ4gsC超过 5 年前
I think basically you can disregard any study or article that purports to say that &quot;science&quot; has found why humans behave in a certain manner or that attempts to answer philosophical or social questions using fMRI or EEG.
评论 #21486312 未加载
rubbingalcohol超过 5 年前
To say an argument has been &quot;debunked&quot; implies that the argument holds no credibility, or the rhetorical equivalent of &quot;I&#x27;m right, you&#x27;re wrong.&quot; It is an attempt to shut down a discussion and provide fodder for ad-hominem attacks against those who dare to disagree.<p>In other words, The Atlantic should be ashamed to run a headline like this because it is antithetical to rational discussion.
评论 #21486197 未加载
评论 #21485718 未加载
评论 #21485900 未加载
评论 #21486117 未加载
评论 #21485840 未加载
jknoepfler超过 5 年前
Ah, the hallmark of 20th century pseudo-intellectualism: operationalize an ill-defined concept (e.g. &quot;free will,&quot; &quot;rationality,&quot; &quot;empathy&quot;), produce a dubiously reproducible experiment, maybe write a controversial paperback making ridiculously hyperbolic claims, let the press go apeshit, $$$.<p>Other flavors include: Pluck a plausible, edgy explanation out of a vast hypothesis space (e.g. evolutionary psychology), over-reductively apply a catchy theorem to a vastly complicated domain (looking at you, game theory). Take a thin, ecologically invalid model and claim &quot;that&#x27;s how the brain works!&quot; (both neural networks and sybolic reasoning systems).<p>I feel like in this century, we&#x27;ve realized that all of this was maybe useful as a reference point to formulate hypotheses, but become less stupid about the conclusions we&#x27;re willing to draw (as a population).<p>The wonderful reality is that we don&#x27;t really have strong opinions about free will, because we&#x27;re not sure we really know what that could mean or why precisely it seemed so important a century ago.
评论 #21487592 未加载
评论 #21488268 未加载
评论 #21487722 未加载
评论 #21488026 未加载