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About the Apple Card

234 点作者 aarestad超过 5 年前

34 条评论

teej超过 5 年前
I suspected the root cause of this situation was due to the income signal, not credit score. I bet that Goldman Sachs is not correctly accounting for California community property laws, where 50% of the household income is hers. This seems like the exact type of oversight that is:<p>- Not “technically” using gender as a signal<p>- Ends up practically causing gender-based unfairness<p>- Is simply bad data and I would consider a bug<p>- Is something customer service is not going to be helpful with<p>I’m glad this issue came to light. I hope it leads to productive conversations about black-box algorithms and underwriting.
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shanemlk超过 5 年前
We&#x27;re all very smart here for considering justifications as too why this happened, but please don&#x27;t get lost in the weeds. The financial calculation here was ridiculously broken, and it needs to be fixed at almost all costs. As folks who use algorithms as tools, we should use this story as a reason to be more accountable. It&#x27;s tone deaf to publicly postulate a lack of sexist intention for the sake of women reading this. We should solely be exploring how to fix this massive error.
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Despegar超过 5 年前
The crux of this issue is that Apple Card is only for individuals<p>&gt;“As with any other individual credit card, your application is evaluated independently,” Williams said in a statement. “We look at an individual’s income and an individual’s creditworthiness, which includes factors like personal credit scores, how much personal debt you have, and how that debt has been managed.”<p>That setup makes it “possible for two family members to receive significantly different credit decisions,” Williams said. He added that the bank is actively exploring ways to allow users to share their Apple Card with family members.<p>Goldman was aware of the potential issue before it rolled out the Apple Card in August, but it opted to go with individual accounts because of the added complexity of dealing with co-signers or other forms of shared accounts, according to a person with knowledge of the matter.<p><a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.cnbc.com&#x2F;2019&#x2F;11&#x2F;11&#x2F;goldman-wants-to-fix-the-apple-card-flaw-that-has-users-claiming-bias.html" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.cnbc.com&#x2F;2019&#x2F;11&#x2F;11&#x2F;goldman-wants-to-fix-the-app...</a>
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spectramax超过 5 年前
Going off on Twitter seems to be a good way to get attention but how does an average Joe get help for company &quot;policies&quot;?<p>We need a service where companies and their customer service, their policies and their practices are openly shamed, feedback gathered and voices heard without the need for twitter (and being famous enough on it to get world-wide attention). An issue board of the sorts that companies can go to and see what their users are complaining about and it needs to be an independent service.<p>Corporations have no one person that can answer, enforce, amend or question their protocol, so this whole thing becomes an attention contest on twitter or HN or whatever. It is an uphill battle until that &quot;one person&quot;, may be a CEO or VP gets informed about it from their PR team. They don&#x27;t have infinite bandwidth to listen to hundreds of complaints and many important ones go amiss. Even if the leaders of the corporations have aligned intentions.<p>I can&#x27;t remember how many times I&#x27;ve seen major issues about a product or service raised through twitter and posted on HN . This needs to change somehow since we are only hearing the top 0.01% of people who took the chance to speak up on Twitter.
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brokentone超过 5 年前
Wonderful post, so glad that Mrs. Hansson stepped out for this cause, as uncomfortable as it was.<p>I&#x27;ve personally wondered at credit scores + credit offered for a long time. The amount of regulation provides wonderful cover for these big institutions to really do whatever they want and lean back on &quot;algorithms&quot; &#x2F; that they can&#x27;t override the policy due to regulations, etc. Meanwhile, it&#x27;s becoming more clear that the algorithms have encoded biases. In addition, the whole credit system is not one of those things you can opt out of (if you ever want a home or car, which I get, not everyone needs), and the whole thing is based on previous borrowing, so responsible (using cash) or underprivileged (never had the chance to start the credit bootstrap) folks are extremely disadvantaged.<p>The interesting twist in this story that I find damning is that Apple actually overrode the algorithm due to pressure -- this pokes a HUGE hole in this &quot;cover&quot; these institutions have created to date.
crazygringo超过 5 年前
There are a lot of comments here pointing out that this was probably triggered by her presumably having no&#x2F;little income in comparison to her husband, despite a higher credit score... and that this is a mistake on <i>Goldman Sachs&#x27; part</i> not taking into account their married status and income sharing.<p>BUT every credit card I&#x27;ve ever applied for has asked for my <i>self-reported income</i>. Because there&#x27;s <i>no official source</i> a credit card can use to verify your income. Unlike debts, your income doesn&#x27;t get reported to any agency. It&#x27;s private.<p>And since 2013, a &quot;homemaker&quot; can and should put down their <i>entire household income</i>, not their individual income:<p>&gt; The Credit Card Act of 2009 requires credit card companies to take “the ability of the consumer to make the required payments” into account when deciding whether to approve an application... A 2013 amendment to the federal regulations surrounding the Card Act expanded the definition of one’s ability to pay so that people 21 and older <i>can include any income to which they have a “reasonable expectation of access.” This can include income from a spouse, partner or other member of your household.</i> [1]<p>So I&#x27;m guessing perhaps she simply made the mistake of not reporting entire household income?<p>[1] <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.nerdwallet.com&#x2F;blog&#x2F;credit-cards&#x2F;list-spouses-income-applying-credit-card&#x2F;" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.nerdwallet.com&#x2F;blog&#x2F;credit-cards&#x2F;list-spouses-in...</a>
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soneca超过 5 年前
Kind of tangential, but wow, great writing. I knew nothing about the issue before this post, but her text was honest, smart, self-aware, generous, emotional, inspiring, informative, all that and still very concise (something that I value a lot). I will bookmark this for future reference to great writing about uncomfortable situations.
koolba超过 5 年前
&gt; I had a career and was successful prior to meeting David, and while I am now a mother of three children — a “homemaker” is what I am forced to call myself on tax returns — I am still a millionaire who contributes greatly to my household and pays off credit in full each month.<p>Could it be as simple as being listed as a “Homemaker” vs direct employment? Seems plausible to me.<p>&gt; But AppleCard representatives did not want to hear any of this. I was given no explanation. No way to make my case.<p>I’d be impressed if you could get anyone on the phone at any financial institution to explain the proprietary inputs to any calculation. Not only would they not have access to that information, it’d be so off-script to reveal it that there’s no flow chart of comments you could make to get it.
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mortenjorck超过 5 年前
This isn’t really about Apple Card, or Goldman Sachs, or even credit reporting. It’s broader than sexism.<p>This is about <i>”the algorithm.”</i> Not this specific algorithm, but the black boxes that we increasingly entrust with positions of power over our lives, to the point where the best anyone can do is throw their hands up and say “it’s the algorithm!”<p>Algorithms are just business logic and math. They can be very complicated instances of both, but they’re not magic. Humans are capable of explaining them and understanding them. But it takes investment to communicate these things, and until now, there’s been no motivation in the industry to invest in algorithmic transparency.<p>Maybe it’s time to create that motivation.
wrkronmiller超过 5 年前
I believe Apple&#x2F;Goldmann ask for annual income as part of the application. Perhaps that was the reason if she had no source of income?
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djsumdog超过 5 年前
Wait, so she has left the workforce, and is a millionaire as far as savings, and pays all her debts onetime. Of course she&#x27;s going to have a lower credit line! She&#x27;s the worst type of person to loan money to: people who pay everything on time. She&#x27;s going to cost the bank money and gain them very little.<p>Not much is said about her husband, but if he carries any balances or has had a shorter credit history or has any higher risk, aren&#x27;t the algorithms going to be weighted to give people like him way more credit? That&#x27;s who they need to make money off of.<p>There are a lot of unknowns here and we&#x27;re guessing at a lot of information. Many of these algorithms are also closed so we can&#x27;t be sure how they&#x27;re weighting things. We can guess, reasonably, that they&#x27;re weighted toward making the most money for the banks as possible. They probably balance risks with ability to pay back on those risks.<p>Jumping to conclusions like, &quot;the algorithms are sexist,&quot; is way too overly simplistic. It could be that the major weight was gender in this case, but if that&#x27;s true, it&#x27;s probably because the number crunching revealed men in her husband&#x27;s demographic were most likely to be unable to pay off all purchases at once and earn them more money via interest. More likely, it&#x27;s way way more complicated than that.
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dwild超过 5 年前
I took a look at the husband twitter, and I want to correct a big misconception, the credit score we can look at isn&#x27;t actually the same one the bank used and it can be actually quite different. We actually can&#x27;t access the credit score they get.<p>I don&#x27;t remember the news article, but if really needed, I&#x27;ll try to find it back. They tried it over 4 individuals, and one of them was much lower than they thought it would be considering what he was saying. They tried to find out why, which is how they learned they weren&#x27;t the actual ones the bank was using and thus tried to get hold of the actual score. The one from the bank was nearly 200 points better. I don&#x27;t remember if they tried with the others 3.<p>I don&#x27;t believe this was actually her issue, the most simple explanation is that the income they got wasn&#x27;t high enough... which has nothing to do with her gender.<p>I agree that credit shouldn&#x27;t be a black box, that they should be able to say, well your credit score allow you this interest rate, but your income only allow you this credit amount... I know it&#x27;s a black box to avoid abuse, but that&#x27;s only security by obscurity.
jumbopapa超过 5 年前
So much outrage for a product where many better alternatives exist. I don&#x27;t for a second believe that the Apple Card has sexism built into it.
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gojomo超过 5 年前
DHH (&amp; now JHH) haven&#x27;t made a strong prima facie case that any gender discrimination is involved.<p>Credit lines, especially those from differentiated lenders (which Apple &amp; Goldman Sachs definitely aspire to be) will not be a simple function of easily-observed factors like income, assets and debts – nor even the credit reports and simple FICO-style &quot;credit scores&quot; of the oligopoly bureaus.<p>Those will be inputs, sure, but lots of other behavioral history could be included – anything Apple &amp; GS can get their hands on, really – and the lender will be estimating not just &quot;ability to repay&quot; but &quot;expected net lifetime profitability across all services&quot;, as a function of the granting of particular credit lines. Has DHH spent more with Apple over the past 20 years? That could do it.<p>As JHH notes, she is &quot;an extremely private person&quot;. That right there is also sufficient to explain a 5x, 10x, or 100x difference in credit-granted. Along with, say, her partner being publicly-known for buying custom supercars and Italian vacation homes to park them in.†<p>† <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;news.ycombinator.com&#x2F;item?id=1670712" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;news.ycombinator.com&#x2F;item?id=1670712</a>
dudul超过 5 年前
I&#x27;ve been reading the original thread on Twitter, and saw a few other testimonies of couples experiencing the same thing. However, what I don&#x27;t recall seeing (and maybe I missed it cause Twitter is hard to follow) is an example of a <i>wife</i> signing up <i>before</i> her <i>husband</i>. All the cases were about the husband signing up first, and then his wife. I wonder if this could be part of the explanation. Like the 2nd card opened for the same household is seen as a little more risky or something.
judge2020超过 5 年前
The big HN thread from yesterday: <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;news.ycombinator.com&#x2F;item?id=21494673" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;news.ycombinator.com&#x2F;item?id=21494673</a>
ryanmarsh超过 5 年前
Imagine having a brand so strong that rich people write think pieces framed in terms of social justice when they have trouble getting access to your credit products.<p>For any other credit card a wealthy couple in their shoes would have written off the credit card company as idiots and applied elsewhere.<p>I have no issue with the argument against unauditable credit offerings that disproportionately affect protected classes. I’m pointing out that but for the brand being Apple you’d never have heard this story.
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repler超过 5 年前
If the algorithm is (accidentally?) biased, how do you un-bias it without collecting the data points you are legally prohibited from collecting?
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pkaye超过 5 年前
There is already a law that allows you mention any source of income in your household for an credit card application. Is Apple in violation of that law?<p><a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.nerdwallet.com&#x2F;blog&#x2F;credit-cards&#x2F;list-spouses-income-applying-credit-card&#x2F;" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.nerdwallet.com&#x2F;blog&#x2F;credit-cards&#x2F;list-spouses-in...</a>
lwb超过 5 年前
I&#x27;m all for improving transparency in the credit system. Woz had&#x2F;has the same situation as DHH apparently. My suspicion is that the algorithm takes into consideration factors such as &quot;are you the co-founder of a highly successful software business&quot;, or maybe it&#x27;s something like income or total assets you&#x27;re legally responsible for or some such.<p>That said I do wish Apple and all other companies issuing credit would just come out and say exactly how the algorithm works. Would make a lot of these conversations easier and less annoying for everyone.
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Will_Do超过 5 年前
As someone who worked on these models in the consumer credit industry, it is <i>possible</i> they there isn&#x27;t any discrimination. The only thing that comes to mind is recent inquiries, which have a minimal effect on credit score but are highly predictive of default. If she applied for a few credit cards in the previous half year and DHH did not, it would explain the difference without being discriminatory.<p>Much more likely, in my view, is that the algorithm looking at something that is so highly correlated with being female (e.g., Homemaker as career) and default. This would almost surely fail existing regulatory tests against discrimination. Since most credit applications ask for household income, ...etc. It is doubtful their applications otherwise looked meaningfully different.<p>Edit: Checked the application, and you are indeed <i>required</i> to enter in household income and not your individual income if you share a checking account.
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gowld超过 5 年前
I&#x27;m curious to see a collection of reports of cases like this (large difference in credit limits of two persons who are married &#x2F; have same financial situation).<p>I&#x27;ve read about two husband-wife pairs so far. What else has been reported? What about single women vs single men who both have similar financial history? Is there a &quot;share my salary&quot; spreasdsheet but for Apple Card limits.<p>Also, I doubt the new Apple Card is totally unique, and this isn&#x27;t financer Goldman Sachs&#x27;s first foray into the personal credit busines. Has anyone encountered this issue with older credit cards and loan products?
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snowwolf超过 5 年前
GDPR has given some good thought to automated decision making and has guidance that I think all companies should follow even if they don’t need to follow the GDPR regulations.<p>“We regularly check our systems for accuracy and bias and feed any changes back into the design process.<p>As a model of best practice...<p>We have signed up to [standard] a set of ethical principles to build trust with our customers. This is available on our website and on paper.” [1]<p>[1] <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;ico.org.uk&#x2F;for-organisations&#x2F;guide-to-data-protection&#x2F;guide-to-the-general-data-protection-regulation-gdpr&#x2F;individual-rights&#x2F;rights-related-to-automated-decision-making-including-profiling&#x2F;" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;ico.org.uk&#x2F;for-organisations&#x2F;guide-to-data-protectio...</a>
dominotw超过 5 年前
&gt; “It’s just your credit score.”<p>I feel like who ever gave her this explanation was undertrained or unqualified.<p>She just refuted this silly explanation to prove bias.
judge2020超过 5 年前
&gt; It’s why I was deeply annoyed to be told by AppleCard representatives, “It’s just the algorithm,” and “It’s just your credit score.<p>Surely AppleCard reps. have deeper understanding into what caused the $57 credit limit, no? Either they do use a blackbox DLNN, their algorithm literally doesn&#x27;t have any non-boolean output or other logging (unlikely), or the author here is omitting the explicit reason for the denial.
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Talyen42超过 5 年前
She put &quot;0&quot; in the income field, didn&#x27;t she?<p>Doesn&#x27;t take a complicated algorithm to explain that.
franze超过 5 年前
Startup Idea: Machine Learning &#x2F; Ai Algorithm Edgecase Monkey Testing as a Service (AIAEMTAAS)
smoser超过 5 年前
In the Apply Card Privacy Policy it states that part of the algorithm for credit worthiness is that it checks your Apple ID for Apple purchases. There is a good chance that DHH makes all the Apple purchases in his family and thus he received a higher limit. <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;thetapedrive.com&#x2F;apple-card-onboarding" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;thetapedrive.com&#x2F;apple-card-onboarding</a>
Vaslo超过 5 年前
Her post was well thought out and her points make sense. His tweet had the right intention, but when people tried to offer an explanation (not justification) as to why this happen, he said they were “mansplaing”. Don’t understand why he needed to go that route.
hartator超过 5 年前
Can it be that because DHH has applied first he got most of the credit line like $20k and when JHH applied she got whatever was left $1k?
OzzyB超过 5 年前
&gt; Jamie Heinemeier Hansson<p>Is it common for a wife to take her husband&#x27;s surname <i>and</i> middle name, or is this a branding thing since her husband is commonly known as &quot;DHH&quot;?
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nicholashead超过 5 年前
I like DHH for the most part, but sometimes on stuff like this, seems so out of touch. This isn&#x27;t an Apple-created problem - credit scores&#x2F;etc. are deeply flawed. We all know this. Throwing Apple under the bus is silly, but a big target I guess, and a juicier headline. Nothing to see here. If you really want change, go after the credit bureaus and banks backing the cards themselves.<p>Claiming an algorithm&#x2F;process is sexist without specific evidence is also problematic, along with claiming this is a &quot;justice for all issue&quot;-- how exactly is anyone&#x2F;any corporation required to loan you money in any capacity?<p>Side note - are folks trying to make this like a bigger debate about &quot;algorithms&quot; and &quot;machine learning&quot; in general? They do realize they&#x27;re different things, right? We&#x27;re not that dumb as a society--- I hope?
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snickerbockers超过 5 年前
&gt; I care about digital privacy. It’s why I wanted an AppleCard in the first place.<p>what in the actual fuck?
RcouF1uZ4gsC超过 5 年前
One thing that seems to be in common of the people complaining about sexism regarding their wives&#x27; credit application, is that the men are apply and receiving credit cards first, and then the wife.<p>Why are the men always applying first for the credit cards?<p>Maybe it is not so much sexism as the order in which they are applying? Then again, maybe it is subtle sexism on the part of the men by always having to be the first one to try something new?