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Apple has locked me out of my developer account

1019 点作者 rwc超过 5 年前

41 条评论

rgovostes超过 5 年前
&gt; I’m just an indie developer trying to make good products.<p>Apple should separate Rambo&#x27;s software development from his reporting rather than retaliate against him, if that is indeed what is happening, but it is a little disingenuous for him to make the above claim.<p>Rambo reverse engineers Apple products and publishes findings on 9to5Mac.com, in particular future product references that have slipped prematurely into releases. (To be clear I have no problem with this, but it likely violates the terms of the Apple Developer Agreement.)<p>Recently, Rambo published an article where he got early access to Apple Arcade, which I think may have crossed a line:<p><a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;9to5mac.com&#x2F;2019&#x2F;08&#x2F;17&#x2F;apple-running-early-access-program-for-apple-arcade-heres-what-it-looks-like&#x2F;" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;9to5mac.com&#x2F;2019&#x2F;08&#x2F;17&#x2F;apple-running-early-access-pr...</a><p>In a later post from a collaborating author, they described how they gained access to the unannounced service through their own Apple account, rather than a leak from an employee, which could easily be argued was unauthorized access.
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dewey超过 5 年前
Because it&#x27;s not mentioned in the article but could be hint on why this happened (could also be entirely irrelevant).<p>It&#x27;s the guy who brought us a bunch of early iOS 13 leaks among other things: <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.hackingwithswift.com&#x2F;articles&#x2F;164&#x2F;interview-guilherme-rambo" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.hackingwithswift.com&#x2F;articles&#x2F;164&#x2F;interview-guil...</a>
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kemayo超过 5 年前
Lots of people saying that Apple doesn&#x27;t owe him any explanation, and that telling people why they&#x27;re banned is just going to prompt &quot;yes, but...&quot; arguments in response. I&#x27;ve dealt with humans, so I&#x27;m sympathetic to that... and I&#x27;ve also been caught up by false-positives, so I can see how it can go horribly wrong.<p>I feel that what&#x27;s being missed here is that Apple, per Rambo, explicitly said they&#x27;d get back in touch with him and tell him what&#x27;s going on:<p>&gt; Developer support then called me, and I gave my previous case number to a nice person on the other end of the phone, who explained that my case had been escalated to a supervisor, who then escalated it to their supervisor, and that I would hear back from them “soon”. This was in mid September. In early October, I called again and was told I would receive an e-mail explaining the situation, I haven’t.<p>Regardless of whether Apple should or should not, in the abstract, tell him what&#x27;s happening... they&#x27;ve said they will, and they&#x27;re messing up by not doing so.<p>(Though, yes, he&#x27;s being quite disingenuous by not even alluding in the story to the way he almost-certainly has violated their developer agreement.)
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hnarn超过 5 年前
It feels like I&#x27;m living in a bizarre world where this event is being parsed by so many people as &quot;Apple can&#x27;t lock any account they want, force them to apologize!&quot;, when what people should be saying is &quot;Wow, monolithic software pipelines controlled by a corporation sure are bad and this is just one of many entirely predictable consequences&quot;
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gwbennett超过 5 年前
If Apple believes Rambo violated the Developer Agreement, why not let him know? Why not give him a warning? Both Google and Facebook recently violated Apple&#x27;s Enterprise Developer Agreement, had their accounts locked, and within 48 hours their accounts were reinstated after they were allowed to correct the issues. Same has happened over the years to other companies.<p>If Apple did lock his account because of some violations(s), why not give him the same opportunity?
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liquidise超过 5 年前
Apple&#x27;s relationship with developers has been a strange one for some time. It shows up in all kinds of ways, from their app development ecosystem to decisions on their hardware.<p>I used to think the swap to a Unix-based OS was a fundamental shift to move in the developer direction. During the days of XServe i think that might have been true. These days though it more like the development community is some noisy group meant to be ignored. I would argue that the return of a physical Escape key is the only overtly pro-developer move from Apple in the last couple of years. Issues like the OP describes resonate well here because many of us have experienced Apple&#x27;s tomfoolery in 1st or 2nd hand ways, too.<p>It is horrible to have your hard work, creative platform and livelihood torn from under you without explanation or for what may feel like arbitrary reasons. If HN comment sections are early indicators, devs are moving on. We are potentially a few years away from OS X apps no longer being best-in-class for dev tooling. That should scare people who are long Apple, a group that presumably includes their management.
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sanxiyn超过 5 年前
&gt; Apple always says that &quot;running to the press doesn&#x27;t help&quot;<p>This is a bald faced lie, so you must ignore it.
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repiret超过 5 年前
Since day one of the app store, there has been a persistent stream of complaints of terrible customer service to developers. Apps being rejected for reasons nobody can figure out, app reviews taking an egregiously long time, account lockouts like this.<p>On the one hand, when a developer account is only $99&#x2F;yr and there is a strong incentive for some developers to try to get away with things, what choice do you have but to provide only automated service portals and call center employees who are powerless to fix any problem not anticipated by their scripts.<p>But on the other hand, there are lots of people making big bucks developing apps, and who are genuinely trying to follow the rules (even if they think some of them are dumb). Apple should have an option for these people to pay extra for real customer service.<p>If I made my living as a solo app developer, I wouldn&#x27;t hesitate to pay any 4-figure annual price if in exchange I got siloed into a small dedicated support team so that my apps were always reviewed by one of a small number of people in order to get more consistent rejections, and reviewed in a timely manner. And I got an account manager I could call up and get weird problems like this resolved the same day - even if the resolution was sometimes unsatisfying: like being told that Apple decided Electron apps use private APIs and will all be denied until Electron fixes it, or being told that I violated the terms of my agreement by publishing details of unreleased products, and so my account has been irrevocably locked.<p>If I were a moderate sized company, there are many 5-figure annual prices I would pay for the same.<p>For many app developers, there&#x27;s real money on the line. Apple should charge them real money and give them real support.
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yig超过 5 年前
This developer is also a journalist who has written many scoops on Apple&#x27;s upcoming hardware and software:<p><a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;9to5mac.com&#x2F;author&#x2F;guirambobr&#x2F;" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;9to5mac.com&#x2F;author&#x2F;guirambobr&#x2F;</a><p>This may be why Apple is upset. Is it justified?
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fjabre超过 5 年前
Ah the joys of being subjected to a dictator&#x27;s whim. Apple can do as it wants when it wants for any reason it wants to regarding that app you may have poured a year of your life into.<p>Our profitable SaaS web app has 1000s of paying users and those apps also run very well on mobile safari.<p>We made a decision a long time ago as a company never to invest in iOS because of Apple&#x27;s dictator like policies. We may develop a simple tool on iOS but we will never put our flagship apps there.<p>Apple has made it clear from the beginning that they will not be fair in their dealings with devs and in fact the opposite, they are actively hostile against app devs in many cases such as this one without being accountable to them. It&#x27;s Apple&#x27;s way or the highway.<p>Not only do we have the privilege of paying Apple to develop on their platform (that devs make more valuable to consumers) but we also have the privilege of paying Apple a 30% cut on virtual goods.<p>I still don&#x27;t understand why so many devs have given into this. But it probably has something to do with Apple&#x27;s monopolistic power.
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JohnFen超过 5 年前
The risk of this sort of thing is why I have never, and will never, develop for platforms that I need a &quot;developer account&quot; or the approval of the company for.<p>It&#x27;s far too dangerous to allow any company to be in a position where they can flip a switch (intentionally or not) and turn your business off.
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saagarjha超过 5 年前
A number of commenters have mentioned that Rambo has a day job where he publishes leaks and other internal details of upcoming Apple releases. I&#x27;m not sure why he hasn&#x27;t mentioned this in the article, but if it is related, it&#x27;s still not the best look for Apple. The only time I can think of where the company has done something like this was banning Charlie Miller from the program, for publishing an app that allowed remote code execution to the App Store and then doing a presentation about it. In this case, Rambo has certainly done things which would violate the developer program NDA–but <i>every</i> news outlet that covers Apple does this by posting images of NDA&#x27;d prereleases, including developers and journalists that Apple has a great relationship with. It might be that Apple thinks it is wrong and&#x2F;or illegal to look at their unreleased intellectual property (as Rambo has had access to internal-only builds presumably leaked to him by engineers) but silently banning him from his developer account is obviously not the correct way to deal with this, either. And finally, if Apple honestly thinks that this would prevent leaks: they&#x27;re just wrong. Even on the software side, I can think of a handful of ways that would work just as well at finding prerelease information, completely legally, even without violating my developer NDA. The only thing stopping me is the fact that I don&#x27;t spend time doing this professionally.
3bodyProblem超过 5 年前
I don&#x27;t like the walled in gardens that google and apple have created don&#x27;t get me wrong. But at the same time the author made a life choice to be an ios developer. Something I don&#x27;t understand, while you know that this job is putting your food on your plate. Why also burn bridges with gray area stuff like reverse engineering nda stuff? If it&#x27;s your hobby, sure, but you&#x27;r using it to have an income. It&#x27;s a bit naive to think you can get away with it. Two wrong definitely doesn&#x27;t make a right, but this situation has a scent of surprised pikachu to it. Don&#x27;t think going on the offense like this will help his case either. Perhaps it&#x27;s time to overthink if he wants to stay a developer in the IOS ecosystem.
judge2020超过 5 年前
Slightly unrelated, but in the Developer portal, you can only create 5 of the &quot;Developer ID Application&quot; certificates per developer team. When you want to generate another one past 5, there is no option to revoke old certificates nor is there an option to ask for an increase.<p>I had to contact developer support asking them to revoke the old ones so that I could generate a new one (since the past keys had been lost to MacOS wipes); but it took over two months between Dev support asking the product security team for assistance, and the Product Security team not responding, before they finally made an exception and allowed my account to generate one more certificate. I realize I should have backed up the previous keys (as I have done for this most recent one), but I find it odd you can&#x27;t revoke existing certificates.
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djohnston超过 5 年前
Brutal, the frustration is palpable. Forgive my mobile engineering ignorance, but does developing on Android pose similar risks or is control less centralized to Google?
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hootbootscoot超过 5 年前
Walled dictatorship treats dissident poorly. Cue &quot;but he violated EULA&quot; chatter.<p>Facts that remain: walled dictatorship has crumbling infrastructure, openly spits upon it&#x27;s Stockholm-syndrome-afflicted subjects, and we all saw this coming from approx 1.7km away...
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jakozaur超过 5 年前
Another case how current tech giants build huge platform with no oversight exploiting their monopoly power.<p>This developer should be able to appeal Apple decision for nominal fee (e.g. $100). There should be independent committee that could judge timely his case. If committee found developer makes invalid claim, then he loses fee. If Apple is found, it should be forced to change decision and pay for the committee cost plus refund $100 to developer.<p>Being kicked out of platform such as Google, Facebook, Apple is a death penalty for many companies. Yet there is no equivalent of judicial system that works well enough in internet era.
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mikece超过 5 年前
Notwithstanding that this developer was also a journalist using his access to beta software to learn about upcoming announcements before Apple wanted them announced, I have to wonder how suspending his developer account without any explanation isn’t grounds for a breach of contract lawsuit. If they told him right from the start that he was booted for violating NDA or even just for pissing off their marketing team that would be fine... but suspending and then ghosting him? Apple needs to pay and pay big for that.
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kuon超过 5 年前
It took me a while to understand an accept how closed and proprietary the Apple ecosystem is. I don&#x27;t mean it is bad or good, but it is their platform, their product and they control it fully.<p>There is no point in saying &quot;it&#x27;s not fair, they locked me out...&quot;, they OWN the platform, they can do whatever they want with it.<p>There is also no point is trying to work around it, hackintosh, vm, whatever, I did it and it&#x27;s just pain.<p>If you don&#x27;t agree with how Apple does things (I don&#x27;t), then walk away. It took me a long time, but I am now fully free of the Apple ecosystem and I develop for other platforms.<p>What I am saying is that we cannot have it all, we cannot have a well funded platform, with marketing done for us, distribution done for us... and be fully free (as in freedom).<p>This is why it is important to think things properly when using proprietary technologies, they are more polished, have support, but have a freedom cost.<p>We should not complain about google, apple... closing accounts, we should create new open alternatives, for everything. Of course it&#x27;s not easy, it&#x27;s hard, way harder than complaining. For this, they are multiple tools, technical ones (writing open source stuff), but also political and legal ones (like GPL).
logfromblammo超过 5 年前
This is a great argument for union-like organization of independent Apple-ecosystem developers. If one member gets banned in an arbitrary and capricious manner, the others can strike, by pulling their programs from the App Store.<p>If hitting the front page of HN is really the best way to get a substantial response from Apple after a drawn-out runaround, that cries out for a counterweight organization to Apple that can punch back and actually make it hurt.
technofiend超过 5 年前
Tangential at best but this is why I literally created a new user ID yesterday solely for Google&#x27;s Stadia. They have a tendency to lower the ban hammer with little discretion and I&#x27;m quite sure sooner or later griefers will figure out how to allege cheating complaints that result in account closure. I&#x27;d rather not lose my real Google account to someone&#x27;s online indigestion.
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CodeSheikh超过 5 年前
This guys wrote a ranty article without telling&#x2F;hinting&#x2F;speculating us what went wrong? I am sorry but I feel like you have wasted our time by making us reading your article and as a reader and a supporter of indie dev community I am unable to conclude if Apple has done any wrongdoing here.
kiba超过 5 年前
One wonder how those problems managed to continuously get ignored as issues get escalated up the ladder.
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backtoyoujim超过 5 年前
It has always seemed weird to me to pay someone yearly to write software for their OS.<p>Having to pay for the tools that ban you reminds me of a digital (urban legend?) &quot;bullet fee&quot; like that Mao supposedly levied to the families of executed prisoners.
mzs超过 5 年前
I didn&#x27;t have to agree to anything to develop for my handspring, just used gcc. I did have to click some agreement for the emulator ROMs but those weren&#x27;t strictly necessary either. There weren&#x27;t any recurring charges, app review process, or forbidden APIs either. I didn&#x27;t have to buy a computer from handspring or palm and nobody could stop me or the authors that wrote books. I miss those days.
rocky1138超过 5 年前
We need an open phone. Today.
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fouric超过 5 年前
I wonder how long Rambo will have to wait for his account to get unlocked, relative to when this story hits the front page.<p>When it happens, everyone should act like it didn&#x27;t, because any corporation that fixes issues only after they become known at a large scale isn&#x27;t operating in the best interests of the user anyway.
blisterpeanuts超过 5 年前
What a strange predicament. Perhaps a naive question, but is it possible to create a new developer&#x27;s account and then request a transfer of your apps? Given that you have the sources &amp; password to old account etc.
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iamaelephant超过 5 年前
I mean yeah. If you play with tigers you get bit. Stop contributing the walled gardens, and definitely don&#x27;t rely on them for your income. A harsh lesson learned.
mikhailt超过 5 年前
I know this won&#x27;t be a popular opinion but this kind of behavior is why I&#x27;m leaning toward some of the ideas that big companies need to be broken up with firewalls between them.<p>Just because he leaked some details about stuff from their hardware&#x2F;software divisions (violating NDA) does not mean he deserves to be treated like this and be locked out of the App Store entirely like this.<p>I understand there has to be some incentives not to break NDAs but given that app stores are becoming such a massive part of our lives, we cannot shadow-ban people just because the platform owners are not happy.
notadoc超过 5 年前
Public shaming a corporation often reverses course, fortunately for this particular developer they enough exposure to stir that up.
ok_coo超过 5 年前
This is why you develop for the web.
chmaynard超过 5 年前
Try sending an email to devprograms@apple.com and ask for an explanation.
Apocryphon超过 5 年前
Customer service via Hacker News. It&#x27;s terrible these huge faceless corporations have backed us into this corner, but that&#x27;s the nature of the power asymmetry. Let&#x27;s hope we can signal-boost this until Apple is forced to acknowledge their failings.
ddingus超过 5 年前
Surely people like this have a non dev friend who can lend a hand...
helpPeople超过 5 年前
Apple deleted apps for China, gets hacked by the FBI, locks out developers, sells broken keyboards, overcharges for hardware, uses proprietary software.<p>Evil company, their fanatics cling to the &quot;privacy&quot; marketing.
thiht超过 5 年前
Just stop developing for Apple platforms, seriously. This is what happens when you encourage their walled garden.
Cypher72超过 5 年前
Windows anyone?
Cypher72超过 5 年前
Windows.
kd3超过 5 年前
The fundamental mistake this guy made was trusting Apple and developing for their platforms. Let us all take note and learn from his mistake.
MattP86超过 5 年前
Do you have an app related to vaping?