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Why does F = ma?

153 点作者 csantini超过 5 年前

24 条评论

KenoFischer超过 5 年前
I&#x27;m not sure the question is particularly well posed, but I think the most coherent answer you&#x27;d get from modern physics is symmetry. Restating Newton&#x27;s law&#x27;s slightly, you basically get two points:<p>1. Momentum is conserved<p>2. All interactions between objects are mediated by forces (i.e. interactions exchange momentum).<p>So you may ask, ok, but why do these two things happen, which is is where symmetry comes in. If you require that your theory is invariant under translations in space and time, your theory must conserve momentum and energy. Then you ask, ok, so what kind of long-range interactions can we have between particles in a theory where energy and momentum are conserved and the answer turns out to be, well those that exchange momentum. For example, in the hypothetical from the blog post where interactions are mediated by exchanges of acceleration (forces are proportional to jerks), you end up with a universe where absent interactions, acceleration is constant. Why is this inconsistent with symmetry? Well, in such a universe, the acceleration of particles would be constant in the absence of interaction, so their kinetic energy would keep growing and growing, violating conservation of energy.
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knzhou超过 5 年前
&gt; Putting it in somewhat fuzzier terms, and at the risk of repeating myself: F = ma derives its power from the (implicit) assertion that there is a simple unversal force law that lets us figure out F for a particular configuration of matter. And so the configuration of matter completely determines the acceleration of a test particle. There is no a priori reason this ought to be true. It’s an absolutely incredible fact of nature.<p>Yup, this is totally correct. To say it yet another way, we evaluate scientific theories not by looking at the pieces in isolation, but how much explanatory power you get from <i>all</i> the pieces working together (penalized by the total complexity of those pieces). There&#x27;s nothing mathematically inconsistent about defining &quot;F = mv&quot;, it just makes F a less useful quantity.<p>Feynman actually had a remarkably similar discussion in his classic lectures:<p>&gt; For example, if we were to choose to say that an object left to itself keeps its position and does not move, then when we see something drifting, we could say that must be due to a “gorce” — a gorce is the rate of change of position. Now we have a wonderful new law, everything stands still except when a gorce is acting. You see, that would be analogous to the above definition of force, and it would contain no information.<p>&gt; The real content of Newton’s laws is this: that the force is supposed to have some independent properties, in addition to the law F = ma. [...] It implies that if we study the mass times the acceleration and call the product the force, i.e., if we study the characteristics of force as a program of interest, then we shall find that forces have some simplicity; the law is a good program for analyzing nature, it is a suggestion that the forces will be simple.
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roenxi超过 5 年前
I liked KenoFisher&#x27;s top level answer but I want to change the perspective because I think momentum is a red herring.<p>The starting point should be energy. Classical physics (and modern physics as far as I recall) determined that literally everything is linked by a single concept of energy. In my view energy is more real than anything else we experience and all our senses are for perceiving energy in different states. Matter is pooled energy, movement is energy, heat is energy (linked to movement), time is defined to some degree in terms of mass so it is linked in there too somehow. And we know energy is conserved because we have observed that everywhere.<p>Once we know energy is conserved the law of momentum makes a lot of sense - there have to be symmetrical laws that don&#x27;t allow arbitrary creation of energy because that doesn&#x27;t happen. And then F = ma turns up and it isn&#x27;t so surprising for the same reason.<p>F = ma is in that sense not a fundamental law; it is a corollary of the conservation of energy. Mathematically there might have been other options, but that is the one that applies in this universe. There was always going to be a mass component in the formula because by observation energy is fundamentally linked to mass.
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tel超过 5 年前
Isn&#x27;t this derived from conservation of momentum? As I understand it, that arises from a symmetry in spatial configuration: that physics behaves identically along shifts in position.<p>I&#x27;m well beyond anything I&#x27;m familiar with, but it feels like these more fundamental relations should be where meaning of equations like F=ma arise. If momentum is conserved due to symmetry of position, then forces applied by a field are exactly what disrupt that symmetry and thus are exactly what invoke changes in the conserved quantity?<p>I hope for explanations like that to bear more fruit because they arise from some pretty undeniable facts of reality: there aren&#x27;t privileged positions in space except for how forces exist in some configuration, there aren&#x27;t privileged moments in time except for how events occur along some timeline.
_Microft超过 5 年前
Hijacking this thread in hope that some fellow physicist could chime in.<p>I&#x27;m physicist myself so maybe I <i>should</i> know this or be able to figure it out myself but here&#x27;s the question:<p>Where is kinetic or rotational energy &#x27;stored&#x27;?<p>Is it eventually the transformation of fields that gives rise to kinetic energy? For example an electron whose electric field is not a radially symmetric must be a <i>moving</i> electron and the difference in energy between the field configurations (simple radially symmetric electric field on one hand and the mix of electric and magnetic fields on the other) is exactly the kinetic energy it has?
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dvt超过 5 年前
&gt; I find it astounding that a theory like quantum mechanics can have inside it another theory, an approximation, also extremely beautiful mathematically, but radically different. It’s like taking Bach, adding some noise, and getting the best of the Beatles out. I wish I understood better why this can happen.<p>This isn&#x27;t really the case. Author should&#x27;ve probably mentioned the Ehrenfest theorem[0]. It&#x27;s not exactly accurate to say that Newtonian mechanics is &quot;embedded&quot; in quantum (or rather Hamiltonian) mechanics. In fact, we need to do some &quot;artificial&quot; re-jigging to make quantum mechanics work at Newtonian scales.<p>[0] <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;en.wikipedia.org&#x2F;wiki&#x2F;Ehrenfest_theorem" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;en.wikipedia.org&#x2F;wiki&#x2F;Ehrenfest_theorem</a>
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whatshisface超过 5 年前
F = ma because if you walk outside and push things around that&#x27;s what you will notice is happening. Any other explanation including a derivation from QFT would just be a different version of that, because whatever deeper underlying theory you were using would have come from the same place as F = ma came from to begin with.
ISL超过 5 年前
We will never know why it does, even though it is a well-motivated prediction of classical and modern theories.<p>It is possible for us to test whether or F=ma, though, and so far, it (with relativistic corrections) checks out.<p>An example of this sort of test from our research group: <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;journals.aps.org&#x2F;prl&#x2F;abstract&#x2F;10.1103&#x2F;PhysRevLett.98.150801" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;journals.aps.org&#x2F;prl&#x2F;abstract&#x2F;10.1103&#x2F;PhysRevLett.98...</a><p>(I&#x27;d go dig up more citations on the subject, but we have a grant proposal due in two days... :) )
theothermkn超过 5 年前
&#x27;F = ma&#x27; is a special case of &#x27;F = d&#x2F;dt(mv)&#x27;. Expanding the latter via the product rule, we get: F = m dv&#x2F;dt + v dm&#x2F;dt, where a=dv&#x2F;dt and dm&#x2F;dt is the time rate of change of the mass of the object. This fuller form matters in, for example, aerospace engineering, where the mass of the rocket is changing as fuel is burned, so dm&#x2F;dt is emphatically not 0.<p>I wonder if the philosophical questions asked in the fine article could have been addressed more satisfyingly from that more general starting point?
andrepd超过 5 年前
If you&#x27;re interested, Landau &amp; Lifschitz &quot;Vol 1: Mechanics&quot; has a derivation of classical mechanics from purely physical arguments, from first principles. F=ma is on page 9.
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bobcostas55超过 5 年前
As Poincaré put it, &quot;Masses are co-efficients which it is found convenient to introduce into calculations.&quot;
kmm超过 5 年前
&gt; [...] Two test particles with the same initial position and velocity, but different electric charges, can behave quite differently in the same electric field.<p>&gt; One possible response is to say “oh, maybe our notion of force should really be something like F = mj, where j is the jerk, i.e., the third derivative of position”.<p>&gt; I’ve never worked it out in detail, but wouldn’t be surprised if such an approach can be made to work.<p>It might not be exactly what he&#x27;s looking for, but in Kaluza-Klein theory, charge is related to the velocity of the particle in an unseen 5th dimension. Through some miracle, if you work out general relativity with one dimension extra, the resulting theory bears a striking resemblance to general relativity in the usual four dimensions plus electromagnetism. If you then assume the 5th dimension is extremely small, which would explain why we can&#x27;t see it, you get quantization of charge for free.<p><a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;en.wikipedia.org&#x2F;wiki&#x2F;Kaluza%E2%80%93Klein_theory" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;en.wikipedia.org&#x2F;wiki&#x2F;Kaluza%E2%80%93Klein_theory</a>
ta1234567890超过 5 年前
&gt; the equation in Newton’s second law isn’t F = ma, but rather the more subtle statement that force is equal to the rate of change of momentum of a body<p>This is probably the most insightful bit and points directly to the potential of fiddling with the equation.<p>Drawing an analogy from electricity, F=ma is in a way the &quot;DC version&#x2F;expression&quot; of a force, in which m and a are constant and F is a fixed quantity. However we can write an &quot;AC version&#x2F;expression&quot; of the equation as F(t)=m(t)*a(t), in which the average of F(t)=F.<p>In a way we tend to just be content with dealing with averages instead of looking at the detail and seeing how it varies over time.<p>There&#x27;s a lot of potential in looking at the variation. Especially as technology enables it through high speed cameras and instruments with higher sampling rates&#x2F;resolution.
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millstone超过 5 年前
One interesting fact that has been missed here is the nature of time reversal.<p>F=ma. Switch on the time reversal machine: t becomes -t. Positions stay the same, but velocities reverse, because dx&#x2F;d-t -&gt; -dx&#x2F;dt.<p>BUT accelerations stay the same! dx&#x2F;d^2t gets a double negative, which is just 1. Gravity attracts in the future and the past. Throw a ball up and it comes back down; reverse the camera and it looks the same.<p>This means that (handwaving) <i>forces are independent of time</i>. And this in turn leads to a time-independent construction of forces - how about as the gradient in space (NOT time) of a potential.<p>This I think is a path to partial insight. A particle moves in a potential, and we can calculate the quantity &#x27;a&#x27; from the purely-spatial gradient at the particle&#x27;s position, without reference to time at all. And we can do this because &#x27;a&#x27; is an <i>even</i> derivative of position.<p>This is a crappy argument; at best it argues that it&#x27;s nicer that f=ma instead of f=mv or f=ma&#x27;. Fourth or sixth derivatives are not considered. Still, understanding dynamics as governed by position only is compelling.
dboreham超过 5 年前
Coincidentally on vacation I&#x27;m reading Leonard Suskind&#x27;s &quot;Special Relativity and Classical Field Theory: The Theoretical Minimum&quot;, which (I think, if I&#x27;m understanding correctly), goes into this question. Something about Gauge Invariance..<p><a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;g.co&#x2F;kgs&#x2F;dygVQN" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;g.co&#x2F;kgs&#x2F;dygVQN</a>
whatshisface超过 5 年前
&gt;<i>A fun question: how does the universe change if the mass isn’t a scalar, but rather is a matrix, and so a = m-1F is the acceleration? What would this world look like? Is it plausible?</i><p>This happens in our universe when the coordinate system is squished. In the general curvilinear case, mass is a matrix.
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bluesign超过 5 年前
I think best way to look at this is m = F&#x2F;a. Then mass is basically objects resistance to force.
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d--b超过 5 年前
I personally would have gone with: because E=0.5<i>m</i>v^2<p>And by that i mean that energy is a much more intuitive concept than force.<p>Why is E proportional to v^2? Now THAT’s an interesting question.
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octoboto超过 5 年前
&gt;<i>A fun question: how does the universe change if the mass isn’t a scalar, but rather is a matrix, and so a = m-1F is the acceleration? What would this world look like? Is it plausible?</i><p>m is only a scalar for particles though? For a general rigid body mass <i>is</i> a matrix. Unless they specifically mean for translational degrees of freedom, in which case I think that would probably break symmetry
doggydogs94超过 5 年前
One time in a physics class we were required to have a “cheat sheet” of formulas for an exam. One student did not have a “cheat sheet” and was told that he was required to have a cheat sheet. He grabbed a sheet of paper and wrote F=ma. He aced the exam.
8bitsrule超过 5 年前
Because Work = Force times Distance = Energy. Acceleration is the result of energy added (by doing work) to a body with inertia (mass). Now if you ask what is inertia: <i>that</i> is the right (IMO unanswered) question!
jules超过 5 年前
I don&#x27;t understand the problem the author sees with the conventional explanation. Yes, test particles of different charges behave differently, but this in no way implies that the law should involve the third derivative of position! The author says:<p>&gt; I’ve never worked it out in detail, but wouldn’t be surprised if such an approach can be made to work. Essentially, it’d make acceleration into a free (possibly constrained) parameter of the particle, rather than something completely determined by the distribution of matter and fields. That free parameter would implicitly contain what (in the conventional approach) we think of as the charge information. Indeed, the new equations of motion would have a conserved quantity, corresponding to the charge. But the resulting force laws would be quite a bit uglier.<p>I don&#x27;t see how this could be true. If it is, I&#x27;d indeed like to see it worked out.<p>Particles with different charges still follow F = ma. The force is different for different particles, sure, but the evolution of the position of the particle still follows a second order differential equation and not a third order one. Furthermore, going to a third order equation doesn&#x27;t even solve the problem that the F is different for particles of different charge, that problem is still there the same as before. I don&#x27;t think is a problem at all, by the way: the forces always depend on the particular situation we&#x27;re considering, including on the mass, charge, and so on, and even more so for compound objects.<p>The question &quot;Why does F = ma?&quot; is a good question though. The conventional explanation only explains why classical mechanics is governed by a second order differential equation. It does not explain why F = ma is the right equation. If you interpret F as a general function of the state of the system then indeed F = ma doesn&#x27;t tell you anything, because by picking the appropriate F you can get any second order differential equation. However, if we already have some prior idea of what force and mass is, which we do, then it&#x27;s not clear why it should be <i>this</i> differential equation. We do have an intuitive idea of what force is: if you hang 1kg on a rope then the rope pulls with some amount of force, and if you put 2kg then it pulls with double the force. Similarly, if you stretch a spring by 3cm you have some amount of force, and if you stretch two of those springs simultaneously you have double the force. You could relate the force in the spring with force by a weight by finding the amount of weight you need to stretch the spring by that 3cm. We can get a definition of force by picking some reference force as being 1 unit of force, and we can similarly come up with an experimental definition of mass.<p>If we accept such a definition then F = ma has physical meaning. For instance, it says that if you double the force then you double the acceleration. That is, if you pull an object with two springs then it accelerates twice as fast as when you pull it with one spring, if you stretch the springs by the same amount in both cases. This is a nontrivial fact about the physical world. The law F = ma also tells you that if you apply a constant force then the velocity increases linearly. That is, if you pull an object with a spring and keep the spring stretched by 3cm, then if the object accelerates to speed v in one second then it will accelerate to 2v in two seconds. This is a nontrivial fact about the physical world too.
ijiiijji1超过 5 年前
Remember that F and a are vectors and m is a scalar.
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w0mbat超过 5 年前
What confuses many people in high school is that F = ma but KE = 1&#x2F;2 mv^2 (or 1&#x2F;2 ma).
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