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Older IT Workers Left Out Despite Tech Talent Shortage

105 点作者 monsieurpng超过 5 年前

25 条评论

rgbrenner超过 5 年前
There&#x27;s no shortage of talent. If there was a shortage we would see real indicators of a shortage like increasing average salaries across the field, training programs, etc.<p>Instead employers consistently use bullshit to filter, puzzles without any relation to the job, etc in their hiring. That&#x27;s a strong indicator that there&#x27;s no shortage. If employers are making up things to filter candidates, then they have too many options.<p>If I had to guess, this is probably just more propaganda from the large tech companies to get more people into the field and an increased visa cap, so they can drive down wages.
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pacaro超过 5 年前
I wonder about this, I don&#x27;t dispute that there is an issue here, but I think that this, and similar analyses, fails to take into account the change in the size of the IT workforce over time. I&#x27;m currently 47, I started my first paid developer role (job title &quot;Analyst&#x2F;Programmer&quot;!) 25 years ago. The size of the job market then was a fraction of the size that it is now. Inevitably there are fewer older people in the workforce.<p>I&#x27;m much more interested in attempts to quantify age-related hiring discrimination, something that I have been fortunate enough not to encounter (yet), but that my brother (50) currently feels like he is running up against.
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codingslave超过 5 年前
As has been mentioned in here, the &quot;Talent Shortage&quot; was made up to get an increase in H1B visa workers to drive down wages and get more for their money. It has always been about flooding the developer job market.<p>Case in point are the interviews at many big tech companies that require leetcode&#x2F;algorithms interviews. Companies are ready to reject any candidate that makes even a small mistake on one of their solutions, or misses the exact optimal solution. If they really needed top talent and couldn&#x27;t find it, they wouldn&#x27;t be so careless in their hiring rejections.<p>Another issue is also that its really difficult to quickly shift tech stacks on a dime. As much as people like to claim it to be possible, even just upgrading from Hadoop&#x2F;MapReduce&#x2F;Older big data technologies to Apache Spark is a massive time investment. The paradigms are the same, the technology when used in practice is different. Workers can see their whole knowledge base become useless in the span of two years.<p>As an individual worker, if this happens three times in 8 years, I think burnout would be expected. Anyone who is capable of constantly updating their technology knowledge to a T is probably already CTO of a company somewhere. Maintaining the ability to memorize and understand inane minutia over a few decades span is rare, and is probably coupled with severe disabilities in other areas of life.
avgDev超过 5 年前
I feel as partially this happens because older people don&#x27;t buy into the hype, can read through BS, and won&#x27;t slave away 70 hrs a week for the same wage.<p>Younger people are less experienced, have less opinions and in most case less life lessons. Tech companies want to move fast and make money, not question what is ethical.
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jmkd超过 5 年前
I&#x27;m mid-40s, Xoogler, Program Manager, Startup founder &amp; failer, UK-based. 130 applications since March, 4 interviews, no offers.<p>Previous blue-chip job history with 100% application success rate, through my 20s and 30s.<p>Have now left the industry due to what I and various recruitment professionals had to conclude was age discrimination.<p>It exists.
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mpfundstein超过 5 年前
Honestly, the best devs&#x2F;CTOs I worked with are older than 45... I don’t get why our industry is like this. Learn from the (old) masters... thats true for art as well as for coding
Iv超过 5 年前
&gt; One problem is that some older IT workers who get too comfortable with their skills risk falling behind, especially in the era of artificial intelligence<p>I am 38, I am in the gap they point out, and I almost fell in it because for too long I thought deep learning was a hype that would eventually die out. I had to have a client force me to look into it to realize that half of my skillset in computer vision became obsolete almost overnight, and the other half is eroding quickly.<p>We think we know better than the youngsters and in several fields, that&#x27;s painfully obvious, but let&#x27;s not be oblivious to the fact that tech still evolves and that half of our job is catching up with it.
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reaperducer超过 5 年前
There was an interesting piece on the CBS Evening News, maybe this past Friday, about how some companies are bringing in older (50+) workers to great benefit. The only thing these people ask for is flexible schedules.
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noicebrewery超过 5 年前
Why pay an older software engineer a high rate for a wealth of experience when you can hire two graduates who won&#x27;t make a 25 year old trust fund baby tech bro feel inadequate
dboreham超过 5 年前
Odd that nobody is writing articles about how airlines are hiring 25 year old pilots or hospitals are recruiting 25 year old ansetheseologists. Their 55 year old colleagues stuck looking for gainful employment.
gleenn超过 5 年前
&gt; One problem is that some older IT workers who get too comfortable with their skills risk falling behind, especially in the era of artificial intelligence, said Michael Solomon, co-founder and managing partner at 10x Ascend, an advisory firm for senior technology job seekers.<p>Um, what? AI isn&#x27;t taking any tech jobs. Maybe once we figure out how to have the robots program themselves...
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colechristensen超过 5 年前
When you job interview around the bay area one thing which is absolutely striking is the diversity of the companies you visit. Sometimes it feels like you&#x27;re in different countries on opposite sides of the planet. There&#x27;s no way that is accidental, agism and racism is absolutely rampant, but not necessarily along traditional lines.
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marcoseliziario超过 5 年前
I am over 40 right now, and, frankly, I don&#x27;t see too much of this problem right now.<p>As you get older, you need to understand that you need to adapt. It&#x27;s easier to get in the trap of thinking that the old ways are better (and sometimes, indeed they are), but it doesn&#x27;t matter. You have to go with the flow.<p>Another important thing is that you shouldn&#x27;t get too attached to technologies. Move with the times, be aggressive with learning.<p>Appreciate new languages, new paradigms. Yes, it sucks when you spent hours honing your skills with Hadoop and then one day you find out that all the cool kids are doing spark. But, the thing is, the people that are doing spark now are the people that were doing Hadoop yesterday, some of them even older than you. It was you that got in the comfort zone and didn&#x27;t see that the field was evolving. While you were satisfied doing Hadoop, some people were thinking of how the job could be done in a different way. And I am not telling here that you should be doing open source, but you should have kept yourself on the loop. It is not unfair, and it&#x27;s not unique to our profession. there was a time where lobotomy was the hot thing on psychiatry, people probably spent hours honing their skills on it, and then, someday, science evolved and we figured out that those skills were not only useless but also dangerous. Maybe this happens way faster in our profession, but also it is a lot easier for us to keep ourselves current on the state of the art than for a surgeon.
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sys_64738超过 5 年前
There are a whole slew of issues related to this. Managers often feel that older employees don&#x27;t take them as seriously as younger people. Younger folk are less likely to have seen it &#x27;all&#x27; like older workers. There&#x27;s also the age dynamic of an org. Some companies hire young because of the culture of &#x27;work hard play hard&#x27; where younger folk buy-in but older folks skip it and go home to their families. Older people are more experienced and more expensive in general. Younger people are also more likely to be willing to work to burn out as they&#x27;ve not done it before and managers know that.<p>My two pronged approach to getting older in the workforce is to make sure there are people older than me at my work place, and have an exit strategy for when the jobs dry up completely.
throwawaybungie超过 5 年前
This is a tough one— a lot of hiring &amp; “diversity &amp; inclusion” initiatives very rarely discuss age<p>Is that others’ experience?
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robotburrito超过 5 年前
I&#x27;m 38 and a relatively new dev with ~3 years of experience in a wide variety of tech. Live here in SF and have been doing the whole job hunt thing.<p>This article stresses me out and makes me feel like if I don&#x27;t get my next good job in a year or so I am basically locked out of a career...<p>I hope this is not true!
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fossuser超过 5 年前
If this is a real thing then it&#x27;s something I&#x27;d want to take advantage of if I started a start up.<p>American age discrimination laws only protect people over 40 from discrimination, they don&#x27;t protect people under 40 from being discriminated against.<p>This means you could advertise roles only for people over 40. If these people are being excluded for age and not for real reasons like ability then they are undervalued by the market.<p>It&#x27;d be interesting to have roles that are explicitly only for people 40+. I&#x27;d want to do this and pair them with younger kids out of college who are just learning how to be effective SWEs as part of the role.<p>Seems like a big potential hiring advantage if the ageism is a real thing.
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keyle超过 5 年前
Youngsters are more malleable to whatever theocratic management scheme you want to shoehorn in. Oldie don&#x27;t buy in the cult driven bend-over management schemes used in many places.<p>In short, they outwit their own positions.
kundiis超过 5 年前
Management can hire 2 fresh grads, roughly same cost as 1 senior candidate. There are companies where headcount is important for managers to become and grow their org. In addition, fresh grads usually have exposure to latest stuff and are eager to make their way in, work 60+ hrs, have fresh perspective, can crack academic style company interviews. Overall good for the company for less money.
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hanoz超过 5 年前
Interesting to read that &quot;the largest gap occurs among workers ages 35 to 44”. This is the first wave of internet professionals, the people who built the web as we know it. Above that age range and you&#x27;re getting into old school IT territory, and below you&#x27;ve got the new wave of web developers with different ideas who might regard the old guard as being stuck in their ways.
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rinchik超过 5 年前
Are they really being left out though? I understand the notion of ageism, and not at all saying it doesn&#x27;t happen in software development, the point is, what if there are other factors also in play here? What if this &quot;trend&quot; is just a natural phenomenon?<p>Software Development is one of the most aggressive industries that are out there. Tech evolves daily with major trends shifting monthly. It&#x27;s extremely hard to keep up!<p>And it&#x27;s extremely easy to become &quot;part of the road&quot; if you don&#x27;t invest heavily in your professional development by studying the &quot;steamroller&quot;. What if older software developers are just the road, modern tech &quot;steamroller&quot; is rolling over? There are quite a few percent of the bright and knowledgeable older software engineers, but what about the &quot;average&quot; ones? Ones who got tired, have families and just don&#x27;t want to be bothered with making themselves uncomfortable by trying to &quot;keep up&quot;? What about those who were sitting comfortably a decade with the oldest tech you can imagine that was &quot;current&quot; in early 2000, and now wind has changed? It seems logical to assume that a job search for those is gonna be tough!<p>Also about bootcamps, Erik Meijer makes an interesting point about &quot;amateurs in our industry&quot;, that people who live, sleep, and breath code for 20+ years should be able to comfortably retire near 40, meaning this problem we are discussing here should never be a problem to begin with.
ThrowMeAwayOkay超过 5 年前
I just want to say: read these threads if you value your software career. There is golden advice from those who’ve seen it. Done it.
altmind超过 5 年前
There is no IT talent shortage. IT companies circulate this myth to get access to work visas and broaden the workforce market, optimizing the salary budget. The universities reaffirm that to get more applicants.
jakebasile超过 5 年前
Maybe there really isn&#x27;t a shortage of tech talent, and that narrative has been pushed by companies in an effort to encourage more people to enter the industry with the promise of easily finding jobs that pay well in order to increase the supply with younger, less expensive workers who are more easily exploited for long hours and poor conditions? It stands to reason that more senior devs would be the ones shafted by this scheme.<p>Maybe I should get my tinfoil hat checked out, but every time I see a giant tech company with one of those &quot;everyone can learn to code!&quot; pushes, all I see are executives hoping to play the long game and reduce the cost of engineering talent.
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nine_zeros超过 5 年前
There is definitely ageism but thats because younger unqualified employees are asked to evaluate older candidates.<p>Younger employees (especially single ones) are usually subconsciously also looking for buddies to have fun with. Which eliminates a lot of older people who just want to work and go home.<p>Further, younger employees also expect older candidates to be some super goddamn geniuses. Even if they are, the interview process never looks for that genius. Also, not all old candidates are genius and its hard for young kids to acknowledge because they just dont know any better.<p>On the other hand, old farts sometimes think too much of themselves. Also, some older candidates just dont want to relocate. Which reduces options A LOT. Very few old candidates want to relocate from rural Indiana to SF bay area.<p>The jobs exist, the talent shortage exists. But the demand isn&#x27;t meeting supply and when it does, the evaluators are usually incompetent.