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SpaceX working on fix for Starlink satellites so they don’t disrupt astronomy

204 点作者 woliveirajr超过 5 年前

24 条评论

dang超过 5 年前
All: since people feel passionately about this, if you comment in this thread please make sure you&#x27;re doing so thoughtfully and following the guidelines. Avoid flamebait, don&#x27;t fuel flamewar, and definitely don&#x27;t do personal attacks.<p><a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;news.ycombinator.com&#x2F;newsguidelines.html" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;news.ycombinator.com&#x2F;newsguidelines.html</a>
cbanek超过 5 年前
(I&#x27;m not speaking for any of my current or past employers, just for myself, and how I&#x27;ve seen this play out. One employer being a telescope impacted by Starlink, and the other being SpaceX, I want both sides to succeed.)<p>First, astronomers know that satellites can disrupt observations. They&#x27;ve known for a while, and have had to deal with things like flares from Irridium satellites, which were probably when these problems were first taken seriously. (It was a design defect where shiny panels would reflect the sun in a very efficient way).<p>Astronomers use all sorts of image processing, because satellites aren&#x27;t the only noise in the picture. The CCDs have to be kept cryogenically cool, and there&#x27;s all sorts of electrical noise as well. There&#x27;s not a lot of photons being collected in the grand scheme of things, so dealing with the noise floor is a real problem. There are all sorts of ways for removing tracks. And don&#x27;t forget weather!<p>Now, that being said, even I was confused why this would cause a problem. The satellites are in low earth orbit, so low that they won&#x27;t be able to reflect the sunlight, since they are in earth&#x27;s shadow. Only during twilight and dawn will satellites be in the right position to reflect the sunlight back to the ground off of some panel.<p>Now, these are not prime observing hours for many people, since it is still not as dark as it could be. So most people point into the darkest parts of the sky (up) rather than at parts where there is still twilight (like nearer the horizon).<p>But for some types of observations, like near earth asteroids, you want to point into the evening sky to look for them, since that is one of the places you want to look, and the sky conditions should be good enough. In these pictures you&#x27;ll get streaks of light as the satellites pass through.<p>Even if there is no light reflecting, these satellites could occlude a distant star or galaxy momentarily. You wouldn&#x27;t see a streak as much as the light would go away and come back. This would affect how bright you see the star, since over the time of the exposure (let&#x27;s say 30 seconds) you&#x27;ll collect less light while something is blocking the light. This can also make it a bit more tricky to look at variable stars, where the light gets stronger and dimmer naturally.<p>I would say that astronomers definitely knew about these problems, since they have to deal with all sorts of similar problems, but the pitch didn&#x27;t get fevered until people saw the first set of Starlink satellites and just how bright they were. SpaceX moves a lot faster than astronomy.<p>As for SpaceX not thinking about the astronomical implications of Starlink, I could believe that. I think most of them were more concerned with if it is possible rather than the implications of doing it. As much as I would think the two fields would know more about each other, I find they are very different and run in different circles it seems (launch vehicle industry vs astronomers), so I could easily see not much cross pollination between the two. For example, there were lots of NASA astronauts and air force people visiting SpaceX, but I don&#x27;t remember one astronomer (not that I met everyone).
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dylan604超过 5 年前
“No one thought of this,” she said. “We didn’t think of it. The astronomy community didn’t think of it.”<p>I really have trouble believing that nobody mentioned adding thousands of satellites would go unnoticed. It is damn near impossible to take any image of the night sky without having a satellite streak through the frame. I have plenty of images with multiple satellites visible at the same time. In wide angle timelapse sequences, they are just small dots that move against the natural movement of the stars. In longer lenses&#x2F;telescopes, they appear as long straight lines totally ruining the image.<p>The first time I heard about thousands more of lower altitude satellites, my first thought was about this very thing. We had already had the discussions from the giant disco ball that was launched. It was planned to be short lived, but it caused quite the stir. Saying people at SpaceX didn&#x27;t think about it is one thing, but to claim nobody in the astronomy community didn&#x27;t is hard to take. Maybe they didn&#x27;t have any way to voice those thoughts in a way that SpaceX could hear.
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topologistics超过 5 年前
&gt;“No one thought of this,” she said. “We didn’t think of it. The astronomy community didn’t think of it.”<p>That is absolutely ridiculous. The Iridium satellites were decommissioned recently and it was a big deal because, for the longest time, you had to check for &quot;iridium flares&quot; if you were using any type of sensitive equipment. Basically, the entire class of iridium satellites was highly reflective and they tended to create shooting star type phenomena, sometimes really really bright, bright enough to be seen during the daytime!<p>Maybe she didn&#x27;t think of it, but to say the astronomy comunity didn&#x27;t think of it is just blatantly absurd on its face.<p>On another note, I miss spotting iridium flares and I&#x27;m looking forward to a new class of satellites being added into my weekly observations.
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rrss超过 5 年前
Last time this was in the news, there was another discussion on HN: <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;news.ycombinator.com&#x2F;item?id=20095462" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;news.ycombinator.com&#x2F;item?id=20095462</a>.<p>User &#x27;twtw asked the following, with no responses:<p>&gt; Why didn&#x27;t the IAU petition the FCC during the comment period for SpaceX&#x27;s application? Seems sorta weird to wait for the first launch to express concerns when the application was submitted to the FCC many months ago (and I think I recall an earlier version years ago).<p>I think this is an interesting question. There are a number of commenters criticizing SpaceX&#x27;s claim that &quot;no one thought of this.&quot; I&#x27;d be interested in their response to this question. If so many people knew it was going to be a problem, why not raise those concerns to the organization tasked with regulating this stuff?
antognini超过 5 年前
As an astronomer once upon a time I follow a number of my former colleagues on Twitter and pretty regularly see them posting images that have been ruined by Starlink. Here is one from just 12 hours ago:<p><a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;twitter.com&#x2F;MassiveStarGuy&#x2F;status&#x2F;1203588958313205760" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;twitter.com&#x2F;MassiveStarGuy&#x2F;status&#x2F;120358895831320576...</a><p>This is going to have a bigger impact on the more expensive observations that require long-duration exposures.
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vasili111超过 5 年前
Also do not forget that SpaceX is not the only company that wants to launch low orbit satelites. I do not think it is possible to find any other real solution other then to move telescopes to space.
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mentos超过 5 年前
Not a valid solution but I thought maybe SpaceX could launch a bunch of telescope satellites that could be used by hobbyists.
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close04超过 5 年前
&gt; “No one thought of this,” she said. “We didn’t think of it. The astronomy community didn’t think of it.”<p>This implies the community was asked or involved in such a discussion and no objections were raised, which is unlikely.<p>Whenever some &quot;armchair specialist&quot; commented about Musk&#x27;s plans to put people on Mars and the challenges with the radiation, the magnetic field, the etc. the answer was always &quot;Do you think a room full of scientists haven&#x27;t thought about that?&quot;. Well there you have it, straight from the source: sometimes they (claim they) do not think about &quot;that&quot;. Question everything, worst case someone already thought of that.
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notatoad超过 5 年前
Hoping i can get an answer here from somebody who actually knows, and not just a spacex fanboy or hater: what&#x27;s the actual scope of the problem here?<p>Shotwell&#x27;s response and other comments i&#x27;ve seen seem to imply starlink satellites are primarily impacting amateur astronomy (&quot;kids looking through telescopes&quot;) and that scientific research is performing post-processing to the recorded images which can mostly eliminate the effects of the starlink satellites. Is that accurate, or is this also impeding telescopes at the big observatories?
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kerng超过 5 年前
Isn&#x27;t it obvious that this will happen? It&#x27;s like taking a picture of nature and having airplane evidence in it, or take a picture of a city or even countryside and there are cars in it.<p>I&#x27;m sure the same was said about cars and planes. It will be weird and things will drastically change - but so have things the last 2000+ years.
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acd超过 5 年前
Good that is is being fixed!<p>Regarding &quot;The astronomy community didn’t think of it&quot;<p>I think just because we have public spaces does not mean one can do whatever one wants with them.<p>1) There has been disturbances in the past of radio astronomy spectrum from communication equipment, this limits our ability to learn and observe space. 2) There will be visual disturbances if we launch of satellite constellation for visual astronomy 3) There will be space junk when these satellites run out of service.
wongarsu超过 5 年前
It will be interesting how they solve it without causing thermal issues. Just absorbing all light won&#x27;t work, the energy has to go somewhere and the only viable way to loose it is through radiation (not much air around even in these low orbits). Maybe the satellites will be black on the earth-facing side and radiate heat on the other side?<p>My impression from the article is that they launch one coated satellite just to see if the coating helps at all, and how bad the thermal issues get, so SpaceX is still in the early stages of solving this. But if they keep up with launching 60 satellites every 2-3 weeks for the next months they have to make progress fast.
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clon超过 5 年前
&gt; “No one thought of this,” she said. “We didn’t think of it. The astronomy community didn’t think of it.”<p>It seems probable that this is one of the things that can be ruled out. I find it inconceivable that none of the thousands of brilliant heads in SpaceX never <i>thought</i> of this.<p>- They spoke, but were not heard<p>- They never felt like speaking
ErikCorry超过 5 年前
I&#x27;m not an expert, so take this with a grain of salt, but isn&#x27;t this fixable with mirrors and angles?<p>For a satellite in LEO most of the light is coming from the sun and a much smaller amount is coming from earthshine and perhaps the moon. If your solar panels are on an articulated arm it should be possible to place them so they reflect the light upwards and the satellite&#x27;s body is in the shadow of the panels. Now the only light on the satellite (and the back of the panels) will be the earthshine, and you can perhaps combat that by painting the satellite black. If it&#x27;s always in the shadow of the solar panels then heating shouldn&#x27;t be a problem, right?<p>As I say I&#x27;m not an expert and there are probably multiple reasons this won&#x27;t work.
Spare_account超过 5 年前
My first thought was that they should paint them with Vantablack, but then I wondered if that might be <i>too</i> dark?<p>Do they need to aim for a specific reflectivity or just aim for the lowest possible value?
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jsjohnst超过 5 年前
Since there are folks here in the field, does anyone know what the feasibility of building something similar to the VLA, but with thousands of smaller satellites? If doable, seems potentially possible to cover a lot more sky at once with less terrestrial interference. No idea if this is practical or not.
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tehjoker超过 5 年前
I don&#x27;t understand why SpaceX is allowed to make this decision nearly unilaterally. This is so similar to how the modern tech companies treat data extraction: they find something unregulated and push until they get pushback.<p>This should have a been a worldwide consultation.
phkahler超过 5 年前
On the plus side, Starship will be able to launch more and bigger space telescopes for lower prices, to places beyond the Starlink constellation. That doesnt help ground based observations though.
buboard超过 5 年前
On the other hand we could use all this reflectivity ( and a ton more! Adding space sails on each of those) to cool the earth
clSTophEjUdRanu超过 5 年前
LEO just got a lot cheaper. Get ready for humans to fill this space with shit since it&#x27;s economical.
coretx超过 5 年前
SpaceX sabotaging earth based astronomy sounds like yet another business trying to create a market&#x2F;demand for itself. Herefore I bet my ass they&#x27;ll do just too little to fix things and just enough in order to not be prosecuted.
pcunite超过 5 年前
<i>We want to make sure we do the right thing to make sure little kids can look through their telescope</i><p>Before the end of next year, there is going to be 12,000 of these units above our Earth. One must certainly hope.
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chmaynard超过 5 年前
Here&#x27;s a novel idea for a fix: admit that Starlink is flawed, shut down the project, and come up with another way to make money.
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