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Shopify CEO says long hours aren't necessary for success

552 点作者 sjs超过 5 年前

32 条评论

bwb超过 5 年前
I don&#x27;t believe anyone really does 80 hours. I just don&#x27;t think it is possible and I don&#x27;t think you can call sitting at a desk doing nothing &quot;work&quot;.<p>I&#x27;ve done 60 hours during intense periods just fine... but it was only effective because of the nature of the work I was doing at the time. And, I usually took a break down the road to compensate. In no way was it even 50% creative work.<p>4 to 6 creative hours seems right, but a lot of work isn&#x27;t creative. There is also the bullshit work that still has to get done, ie, loading up contacts in a CRM, building and nurturing relationships, reviewing emails, checking links, etc etc etc..
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thetrumanshow超过 5 年前
A few thoughts to add to the discussion, loosely related:<p>1) If I know exactly where to spend my time for the best rate of return, its likely that I&#x27;ll have to spend relatively few hours achieving success.<p>2) For most people, the success they can achieve through just having a plain old job can be had for a mere 40 hours. Anything they want above what 40 hours can grant them should probably be done elsewhere (second job, side-hustle, etc) since the ROI will be very low for spending those additional hours at work.<p>3) The 80 hour week lifestyle is probably necessary for people who are still frantically doing what Felix Dennis calls &quot;The Search&quot;, trying to build a company without the foggiest notion what people want.
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hintymad超过 5 年前
These successful people sound like working long hours is an absolute evil. I think they underestimate the effort that an ordinary person needs to be even moderately successful. What if it takes me twice as long to debug a problem as my team&#x27;s standard? What if a concept is so simple to everyone else in my team yet it&#x27;s just so hard for me to understand? What if I see an opportunity to build a truly great product, yet I don&#x27;t have the required technical background while I have at most two weeks to catch up? What if I really want to tap into machine learning yet I have meetings all day, so my only choice is to study after work? Now, before you ask me to switch my career, what if I do have a passion in tech and I&#x27;m even worse at doing anything else?<p>See? Working long hours sometimes is not a burden, but a choice, a choice that one makes to master what they love, and to make sure they won&#x27;t regret wasting their life when looking back years later. And sometimes working long hours, as long as it&#x27;s voluntary, is the only way to succeed.
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pmoriarty超过 5 年前
<i>&quot;I&#x27;ve never worked through a night. The only times I worked more than 40 hours in a week was when I had the burning desire to do so. I need 8ish hours of sleep a night. Same with everybody else, whether we admit it or not&quot;</i><p>So he didn&#x27;t. What about his employees?<p>Not to imply that long hours are necessary. I think they&#x27;re abhorrent. But they&#x27;re also endemic. Some bosses do get away with working shorter hours while they flog their employees to work like crazy. On the other hand, workaholism at many companies tends to gets worse and worse as you gain responsibility, and some of the most insane hours are worked by those near the top.
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bertr4nd超过 5 年前
I always like Richard Hamming’s take on hours worked: “ Knowledge and productivity are like compound interest.&#x27;&#x27; Given two people of approximately the same ability and one person who works ten percent more than the other, the latter will more than twice outproduce the former.” (From “You and Your Research”: <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.cs.virginia.edu&#x2F;~robins&#x2F;YouAndYourResearch.html" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.cs.virginia.edu&#x2F;~robins&#x2F;YouAndYourResearch.html</a>)<p>I started incorporating this thinking into my own work schedule, and I believe it to be true. I certainly found that I grew incredibly quickly in my abilities when I started working more (as long as I was applying the hours intelligently, which is admittedly its own trick)
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BadassFractal超过 5 年前
In a &quot;fresh out of school &#x2F; fresh out of first job founder-wanting-to-build-a-startup&quot; context, you often start with no connections, no capital, no world-class skills, no team, no game-changing idea. The only variable you can control is the amount of effort (time) you put into the venture trying to find something that works before you can no longer afford ramen. The hours are justified in that scenario, because you have no other resource to leverage outside of time.<p>Years later, when you&#x27;re already comfortable, have a rich network of experts and trusted past associates, have easy access to capital, have decades of experience of building businesses, and a deep understanding of an industry of two? Yeah, you don&#x27;t need the long hours, you&#x27;re fine.
IB885588超过 5 年前
Original thread on twitter: <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;twitter.com&#x2F;tobi&#x2F;status&#x2F;1210242184341000192?s=20" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;twitter.com&#x2F;tobi&#x2F;status&#x2F;1210242184341000192?s=20</a>
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jariel超过 5 年前
Me thinks there&#x27;s a bit of selection bias here.<p>If you&#x27;re fortunate enough to hit product market fit without too much struggle ... and then can scale it as a regular company - good on you.<p>But I suggest in the early years, it&#x27;s really not like that for most founders as they pivot and strife.<p>In the scale years, I suggest it probably could be more like that for most company employees and leadership. And FYI I think most companies are like this i.e. more or less 9-to-5, even very well known corps.<p>I also think this might have very much to do with the nature of the technology and the inherent competitiveness&#x2F;barriers in the category: in companies wherein there&#x27;s a significant number of talented individuals needed to focus - crunching happens.<p>For example: Pixar films. Apparently people work pretty long and hard to make production work. It involves a lot of specific talent, working together with ambiguous timelines and schedules, last minute creative changes.<p>Spotify seems to be the kind of company perhaps wherein the work can be spread out fairly efficiently thereby enabling not only 9-5 hours, but perhaps more importantly: no need for A+ Valley Top Talent. I know Ottawa very well and there isn&#x27;t remotely enough raw, high end A+ talent and specialisation of skills to make something like the iPhone.<p>Spotify can be built with a large number of &#x27;smart people&#x27; (which Ottawa has aplenty), but I&#x27;m doubtful there will ever be an iPhone or &#x27;Toy Story&#x27; come out of Ottawa either (though I would desperately like to be wrong).
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patrickdavey超过 5 年前
In my opinion there&#x27;s absolutely nothing to be proud about in working long hours for long stretches. All you&#x27;re doing is setting up or maintaining a completely unmaintainable situation. If you&#x27;re finding you have to work &gt; 40 hours regularly, someone is making and signing off on bad estimates.<p>If you&#x27;re salaried, and you&#x27;re working extra hours regularly, all you&#x27;re doing is reducing your effective hourly rate.
vgchh超过 5 年前
The reality is that there is no single answer. There are companies like Shopify that are able to build a platform while encouraging work-life balance. And then there are companies like Tesla, where employees are expected to forgo work-life balance. I think it comes down to how quickly you as a company may die if left on autopilot. I am going to guess that Shopify had near death moments, but probably fewer. OTOH, Tesla, remains in the default dead territory even now, that they are close to shipping half a million cars per year.<p>That said, a great work-life balance is great to strive for, just that depending on what your company does, it may or may not happen soon enough.
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gremlinsinc超过 5 年前
1st week of December, I did 87 hours clocked on clockify for clients. I turn clock off when I go to the bathroom, or get distracted on HN&#x2F;Reddit. It&#x27;s only on while I&#x27;m coding.<p>But I get burnt out fast when on a schedule like that, and knew I&#x27;d have some downtime with holidays and need to fill up on work to pay bills in January. Definitely couldn&#x27;t sustain hours like that unless I was CEO and it was my baby then I&#x27;d be more apt to just keep going because it&#x27;s a passion project.
cdiddy2超过 5 年前
Its funny following this story since I saw the original tweet from Ryan Selkis a crypto twitter entrepreneur. <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;twitter.com&#x2F;twobitidiot&#x2F;status&#x2F;1209443243924045825" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;twitter.com&#x2F;twobitidiot&#x2F;status&#x2F;1209443243924045825</a><p>It has spread to take over twitter and spawned articles and CEOs of large companies weighing in, and now on hacker news. Fascinating to watch where our news starts from and how it spreads
bhouston超过 5 年前
Jason Fried was talking about this a few days ago:<p><a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;twitter.com&#x2F;jasonfried&#x2F;status&#x2F;1209115637148274690" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;twitter.com&#x2F;jasonfried&#x2F;status&#x2F;1209115637148274690</a><p>I wholeheartedly agree as well. The key to working less, while being successful is to focus on what will give you the best rate of return and not doing the things that are not useful. That is really hard to figure out initially though. But I think it gets easier as you get more experienced, as your personal value system gets better tweaked to match reality.<p>This applies to the company as well like Jason Fried said. The company should have clear values that are attuned to market value and it should be professionally run.
Ericson2314超过 5 年前
I&#x27;m quite glad that working more hours isn&#x27;t productive. It&#x27;s good we have an inate defense against that race to the bottom. Makes the societal battle (imagine it being illegal to work more hours, deemed being unfair competition) a bit easier to win.
shanemlk超过 5 年前
The word &quot;work&quot; is not specific enough in this context, and this whole discussion lacks nuance. When we talk about &quot;work&quot; are we talking about renting your own time, or building something you have a stake in? Does a side project that may give you insight into your main focus apply as work? Does reading and curiosity count as work? I spend nearly every waking hour trying to be successful... is that work? I&#x27;d like to introduce the word &quot;toil&quot; into the discussion. Elon Musk may &quot;work&quot; 100 hours a week, but there&#x27;s no chance he&#x27;s &quot;toiling&quot; 100 hours a week.
keyP超过 5 年前
I find if you have a exciting project and you&#x27;ve developed a great team (which includes soft-skills; great technical skills does not necessarily make a great employee), I find a lot of team members voluntarily thinking about the project outside of hours or staying late because they want to.<p>Whilst more hours certainly doesn&#x27;t mean more productivity, the idea of nurturing intrinsic motivation is often omitted in discussions about working late and it&#x27;s more an implicit by-product of a good working environment.
nathanvanfleet超过 5 年前
I remember when I applied to work there as an iOS engineer and they didn&#x27;t even phone screen me because I didn&#x27;t have a strong enough social media profile.
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wrnr超过 5 年前
Long hours are neither necessary or sufficient to be successful, some have to work long hours just to keep their head above water.
rajacombinator超过 5 年前
If you hit the product market fit jackpot, long hours aren’t necessary. Until then, most of us have to grind it out.
CitrusFruits超过 5 年前
I think the shortening of &quot;financial and business success&quot; to &quot;success&quot; can be a bit unfortunate.<p>My big metric for success is currently how many hours I can spend on my bike a week while still feeding myself and providing for loved ones responsibly.
ixtli超过 5 年前
This is really a lovely thread. In general I loathe working at large companies and try to avoid it, but this really changes my perception of Shopify. The fact is that people who say they work 80 hours don&#x27;t really do it. If they <i>ever</i> do it it&#x27;s a rare event in the totality of their labor.
neo4sure超过 5 年前
If Tesla took Shopify&#x27;s advice it will be dead right now. Every scenario is different.
wesleywt超过 5 年前
Working long hours is for the poor who need to make the rent. Not for successful.
nif2ee超过 5 年前
let&#x27;s see what happens if he starts today all over again. He forgot to mention the most important thing, that he was at the right place and right time. No matter how you come up with a 1000x better Shopify today, you most probably won&#x27;t go anywhere. Many clunky business projects that were started with the rise of social media (around 2004-2013) made their owners kings ONLY because they were at the right place and time. The free ride is over. His argument is mostly bullshit for anyone starting today, the internet is much more centralized and you can&#x27;t go viral unless you spend a fortune assuming having a superior product. It&#x27;s a billion times harder today to succeed with a great product today than with a barely average one 15 years ago.
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rolltiide超过 5 年前
In jobs that don&#x27;t compensate overtime, that have no improved networking component after hours, and suffer from declined cognitive output after 6-8 hours you absolutely shouldnt work longer<p>Success is never defined
dvt超过 5 年前
What&#x27;s unfortunate is that on the other side of the coin, &quot;rockstar CEOs&quot; like Elon Musk claim they sleep 4 hours a night and work 90 hour weeks. I think Musk does this mostly for publicity&#x2F;image reasons and not that it&#x27;s actually true, but you&#x27;ve got plenty of wantapreneurs parroting this (imo) unhealthy lifestyle.
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krishsai超过 5 年前
Long hours or continuous working exhausts. This does not lead to productive work. Creative work is key and that depends upon flexibility.
wbharding超过 5 年前
I think we&#x27;re all rooting for the narrative that it&#x27;s possible to get ahead working 9-5. But it&#x27;s hard for me to ignore the survivorship bias at play here. Yes, if your company has a market cap in the billions, you probably don&#x27;t <i>need</i> to be grinding on the weekends anymore. If you&#x27;ve built a company with amazing programmers and predictable revenue (e.g., dhh&#x2F;Jason Fried) you probably don&#x27;t need to grind weekends.<p>But when you&#x27;re at the front lines, striving to create something new, you&#x27;ll be competing against very motivated entrepreneurs. These entrepreneurs will often have more resources than you, and zero aversion to working weekends. In those circumstances, Tobi&#x27;s lifestyle probably isn&#x27;t going to cut it. When an entrepreneur is working to create that spark, it pays to be completely obsessed, sometimes for years.<p>Thankfully, very few of us are on the front lines struggling to launch something momentous. Tobi once was, but he was smart and surrounded by great people, and now he&#x27;s in scaling mode, which seems like a much different beast. I&#x27;m grateful that he and other successful tech leaders don&#x27;t force their teams to work as hard as they needed to in the early days.
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pastor_elm超过 5 年前
Shopify is obsessed with growth like every other public company. They are nothing like Basecamp. They can get away with shorter hours, maybe, because Canadian salaries are relatively low compared to San Francisco, but something will eventually have to give.
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samwestdev超过 5 年前
<i>&gt; For creative work, you can&#x27;t cheat. My believe is that there are 5 creative hours in everyone&#x27;s day. All I ask of people at Shopify is that 4 of those are channeled into the company.</i><p>He&#x27;s practically asking to put company success before personal growth. That&#x27;s incredibly selfish if you ask me.
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misterman0超过 5 年前
I think it&#x27;s wrong to celebrate a company that claims 80% of what it is to be you, even when other companies claim even more. I question the reason behind us devoting ourselves to these undemocratic structures.
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Reedx超过 5 年前
Long hours aren&#x27;t necessary for success, and you should do what works for you, but they’re needed if you&#x27;re aiming for the top in your field.<p>It&#x27;s an inconvenient truth, but you&#x27;re not going to be able to reach the John Carmacks of the world if you&#x27;re working 40 and they&#x27;re working 60: <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;twitter.com&#x2F;id_aa_carmack&#x2F;status&#x2F;1210593150303031296" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;twitter.com&#x2F;id_aa_carmack&#x2F;status&#x2F;1210593150303031296</a><p>Anyone who thinks he would&#x27;ve achieved the same with far fewer hours are just kidding themselves and pulling crabs down into the bucket. Also implicit in that is Carmack being a fool for working 60, when he would&#x27;ve been as or more(!) effective with less? Nonsense.
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