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Boeing 737 Max: Automated Crashes [video]

219 点作者 HelenePhisher超过 5 年前

11 条评论

SAI_Peregrinus超过 5 年前
As I see it there are several critical flaws in the MAX.<p>First, the engine placement means it has a non-linear control force curve, so it needs some system to compensate for that. Hence MCAS. This is because the landing gear can&#x27;t be lengthened without expanding the gear bays, which would void the type certificate AFAICT.<p>Second, the larger size of the plane means that a single pilot cannot be guaranteed to be able to use the manual trim wheels in all flight modes. The force required is extreme, weaker pilots may not be capable of trimming the aircraft. This can&#x27;t be fixed without changing the trim wheel size (which requires a new cockpit layout) and&#x2F;or the horizontal stabilizer, both of which would void the type certificate.<p>Third, critical flight control systems need to be triple-redundant, and there are only two AOA sensors. Since the plane cannot be certified without MCAS (point 1) and MCAS can command a catastrophic failure (see two craters) it should be a triple-redundant system. A new AOA sensor would void the type certificate.<p>Canada stated that they would certify the MAX without MCAS and with required pilot training, if its performance characteristics were acceptable. Boeing has made no attempt (AFAICT) to try this, which raises suspicion that MCAS is in fact required for certification, which would make it a Fly-By-Wire system (and subject to appropriate regulations, requiring hardware changes) and not just a stability augmentation system. Essentially Canada called Boeing&#x27;s bluff.<p>It&#x27;s not the software that&#x27;s the (only) issue. If it were, the plane would be flying by now.
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EddieCPU超过 5 年前
&quot;Underestimating the dangers of designing a protection system&quot;<p><a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.youtube.com&#x2F;watch?v=PlaMQBEg-9M" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.youtube.com&#x2F;watch?v=PlaMQBEg-9M</a><p>“In the course of the investigation, a new type of flight assistance system known as the Maneuvering Characteristics Augmentation System (MCAS) came to light. It was intended to bring the flight characteristics of the latest (and fourth) generation of Boeing&#x27;s best-selling 737 airliner, the &quot;MAX&quot;, in line with certification criteria. The issue that the system was designed to address was relatively mild. A little software routine was added to an existing computer to add nose-down trim in situations of higher angles of attack, to counteract the nose-up aerodynamic moment of the new, much larger, and forward-mounted engine nacelles.”<p>“Apparently the risk assessment for this system was not commensurate with its possible effects on aircraft behaviour and subsequently a very odd (to a safety engineer&#x27;s eyes) system design was chosen, using a single non-redundant sensor input to initiate movement of the horizontal stabiliser, the largest and most powerful flight control surface. At extreme deflections, the effects of this flight control surface cannot be overcome by the primary flight controls (elevators) or the manual actuation of the trim system. In consequence, the aircraft enters an accelerated nose-down dive, which further increases the control forces required to overcome its effects.”
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mechhacker超过 5 年前
Right around 37:30 it shows how difficult it is to use the manual trim wheel to affect the plane&#x27;s attitude.<p>One pilot has to move all focus to it, without touching the other controls.<p>It is still baffling to me how everything, from one sensor to a control system that can overwhelm the pilots with stick forces with no sanity checks in software, got through Boeing and then the FAA.
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lovehashbrowns超过 5 年前
The video was taking ages to load for me, but I believe this is the same video from the same source: <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;youtu.be&#x2F;PlaMQBEg-9M" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;youtu.be&#x2F;PlaMQBEg-9M</a>
fhub超过 5 年前
In the Q&amp;A, there were two questions about topics that the speaker wasn&#x27;t really aware of.<p>1. A purchase option for an instrument&#x2F;indicator that shows discrepancies between Angle of Attack sensors on each wing.<p>2. In the KC-46A Pegasus it seems the pilots are able to override the MCAS system by simply pulling on the controls.<p>For me, #2 would have been an interesting discussion as perhaps Boeing chose not to re-use this system because it might delay certification. Imagine being the person who (may) have made the call to create a worse software than something that existed to sneak past compliance.
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HelenePhisher超过 5 年前
Youtube link: <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.youtube.com&#x2F;watch?v=PlaMQBEg-9M" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.youtube.com&#x2F;watch?v=PlaMQBEg-9M</a>
logjammin超过 5 年前
&quot;Apparently the only design of the MCAS system the FAA saw was limited to a 0.6 degree deflection [of the stabilizer] at high speeds and only single deflection only. <i>And that was changed</i> and ... it is still unclear how that could happen ... it was changed to multiple activations, even at high speed, and each activation could move the stabilizer as much as 2.5 degrees, and there was no limit to how often it could activate.&quot; (~28min; emphasis added)<p>For me, in a crisis with a lot of burning questions, one I haven&#x27;t seen raised much is: <i>who</i> changed the MCAS behavior after the FAA &quot;saw&quot; the first version? <i>Someone</i> decided this should happen, and <i>someone</i> implemented it (perhaps the same person). Forget the C-suite for a moment; someone in middle management made this call. Shouldn&#x27;t they answer for it?
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floki999超过 5 年前
This is a great presentation, goes into a lot of details. Thanks for sharing.
nojvek超过 5 年前
Site videos aren&#x27;t loading. Seems like HN hug of death.
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trymas超过 5 年前
Unrelated to the content of the video - is it possible to remove French voice-over?<p>EDIT: I guess only option is to download the video file and switch the audio language as browser&#x27;s player cannot do this.<p>EDIT2: from html - there are multiple sources, english is the first one, though player starts automatically from the second source. Link to english video: <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;koeln.ftp.media.ccc.de&#x2F;&#x2F;congress&#x2F;2019&#x2F;h264-hd&#x2F;36c3-10961-eng-Boeing_737MAX_Automated_Crashes.mp4" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;koeln.ftp.media.ccc.de&#x2F;&#x2F;congress&#x2F;2019&#x2F;h264-hd&#x2F;36c3-1...</a><p>EDIT3: after couple reloads and waiting couple dozen of seconds native html video player have switched to some custom CCC player with settings option available. Probably needed some time before JS fully loaded and did it&#x27;s job. Apparently &#x2F;u&#x2F;lovehashbrowns had loading issues, so this sounds related. Maybe CCC is getting hug of death from HN, Reddit or whatever.
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ryanmarsh超过 5 年前
Does anyone else feel like we&#x27;re going to be having a nearly identical conversation about a car some day? Some mixture of design changes, sensors, and software, (driven by business) that lead to avoidable deaths?<p>Warrant against hyperbole: I&#x27;m not against the idea of self driving cars. In fact I have a Tesla and use auto steer daily.
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