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What DoorDash pays, after expenses, and what’s happening with tips

388 点作者 cbzbc超过 5 年前

59 条评论

boh超过 5 年前
It's becoming abundantly clear the real innovation from on-demand services (including ride-sharing companies), is their ability to transfer more money from labor to capital with complex pay structures. For many if not most of these companies, its their only means towards profitability. For instance, any rise in revenue Uber experienced in the last 3 years was exclusively due to cuts in pay for drivers. Tech has long lost the glow that prevented the public from scrutinizing whether a VC subsidized, underdeveloped business model is good for society. So far the answer seems to be no.
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marcell超过 5 年前
&gt; “These orders don’t pay for our expenses or our time. We actually lose money when we take those orders. If I pick up an order that is 10 miles away and deliver it 6 miles I’m traveling 16 miles for a $3 order — so I have lost money. I’m in the negative when I account for gas, wear and tear, and other expenses. Not to mention my time.”<p>This begs an obvious question: why are people choosing to do this if it pays $0&#x2F;hr? It’s voluntary. Can they find something better to do with their time?
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dmode超过 5 年前
Why can’t we have normal businesses where you employ your workers and charge your customers the real cost of the transaction ? If that is not viable, don’t start the business to begin with. Let’s just go back to first principles, can we ?
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mabbo超过 5 年前
Is anyone else starting to get the feeling that &quot;gig economy&quot; is this generation&#x27;s &quot;multi-level marketing&quot;?<p>People who don&#x27;t know any better get sold on the &quot;be your own boss, earn what you put in&quot; concept. Reality doesn&#x27;t match expectations. The people work their asses off and wind up with a lot less money than they expected because costs and actual spent time aren&#x27;t taken into account. The people they&#x27;re working for continue to make lots of money. People quit, but are soon replaced by the next sucker.<p>MLMs still exist and are going strong, but culturally we&#x27;re more aware of what they are. But maybe we&#x27;re becoming more aware of what &quot;gigs&quot; are.<p>Perhaps, and I both love and hate myself for saying this, &#x27;the gig is up&#x27;?
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bobloblaw45超过 5 年前
I drove for DoorDash for about a month. What killed me was the wait between deliveries. I think it was like 45 minutes on average and when I did get a delivery it was like a tiny $7 delivery. There would be 2 hour stretches of times pretty often.<p>But then once in awhile I&#x27;d get a string of maybe 3 or 4 runs that paid like $12. over 2 or 3 hours.It was too inconsistent. Had no idea if I ever got tips, from my understanding I think the company pocketed it due to how they were paying at the time.<p>The community talks about gaming the system and denying deliveries less than x dollars but I personally couldn&#x27;t bring myself to do it. And after waiting an hour I&#x27;d be dying to get moving again anyway.<p>This was before all the pay drama, it sounds like they&#x27;ve gotten much worse. There&#x27;s just too many drivers I think.
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paxys超过 5 年前
An interesting nugget in this otherwise okay article is the suggestion that DoorDash is still indirectly keeping customer tips, because orders with low&#x2F;zero tips are more likely to get rejected which means that they will have to keep increasing the base price till a driver accepts it.<p>As a customer I suppose I should start adding tips only after the order is finished rather than when I place the order.
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squiggleblaz超过 5 年前
According to the article, the standard delivery fee is 5.99 and there&#x27;s a 10% service charge. Surely the purchaser thinks &quot;I&#x27;m paying 5.99 to the driver and 10% to DoorDash&quot;. It feels like theft. The company is telling the customer one thing, the driver another thing, and stealing the difference.
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kangaroozach超过 5 年前
Sophisticated companies preying on unsophisticated small businesses (workers). This is the same garbage that convinced many businesses that selling Groupons was good for them when clearly it wasn’t. The same thing that gets drivers to exchange the equity in their vehicle for money while giving away their time for free. They optimize their business models and pricing to take the most advantage of an endless pool of desperate individuals just seeking to get by. Meanwhile well regarded VCs and celebs get rich before the entire model inevitably proves to be bogus. It’s a total scheme.<p>But stealing tips is as low and unethical as it gets. By definition a tip is a direct payment to the service provider. Even pooling tips is not ethical. But literally stealing tips is false advertising. They are selling tips and delivering something else. Call it something else, but if you call it a tip and don’t pass 100% to the delivery person you are an unethical person. And this is coming from a free market capitalist.
9nGQluzmnq3M超过 5 年前
Can&#x27;t say I&#x27;m surprised -- having people in food delivery (read: waitstaff) work for virtually nothing and hoping to make it up in tips is entirely consistent with the American restaurant experience. Although at least restaurants are theoretically supposed to guarantee minimum wage, and don&#x27;t exploit the car maintenance and depreciation of their workers.
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uptown超过 5 年前
Almost none of these DoorDash &#x2F; Uber &#x2F; Lyft drivers are doing the math with consideration of the wear-and-tear on their vehicles, nor the increased likelihood of accidents given they&#x27;re out on the road more than they otherwise would have been. These are net negative &quot;jobs&quot;.
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pithon超过 5 年前
I had DoorDash, using my account, deliver to my friend&#x27;s place once. He now gets mail spam in my name at his house.
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cold_fact超过 5 年前
This is why when I do order from Doordash, I only tip in cash and make sure to write it in the comments.<p>Still the best online delivery by me even if they are a shit company. Hate Grubhub more.
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loceng超过 5 年前
I think legislation is needed for 100% of &quot;gig economy&quot; platforms to in real-time state to the customer exactly how much the service provider is getting paid: how much if my Lyft driver getting - and what cut is Lyft taking, etc.
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Balanceinfinity超过 5 年前
It&#x27;s a free country - the drivers can choose to take the assignments or choose not to. What they (and customers) are entitled to are accurate information so they can make choices about whether this is in their interest. It&#x27;s easy to say &quot;Door dash should pay more,&quot; (and they probably should), but that might cut customer usage by 40%, which means half of the people driving wouldn&#x27;t be able to drive. The one thing that Door Dash shouldn&#x27;t be able to do is duck payroll taxes, so that these people have social security benefits.
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no_flags超过 5 年前
I don&#x27;t think using the IRS mileage number is an accurate way to calculate costs of operating a vehicle for a couple reasons.<p>Consider this report from AAA: <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;exchange.aaa.com&#x2F;automotive&#x2F;driving-costs&#x2F;" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;exchange.aaa.com&#x2F;automotive&#x2F;driving-costs&#x2F;</a><p>Notice that the cost per mile actually goes down the more miles you drive! You have to drive 20,000 miles to get down the ballpark of the IRS number. This indicates that expenses affected by mileage like gas, maintenance, and depreciation are dominated by up front costs like insurance and taxes. Now consider that most door dash drivers already chose to have a car before working for door dash, so they will have to pay the up front costs regardless. For this reason, I don&#x27;t think $0.58 per mile is a good estimate of the marginal cost associated with extra driving for door dash. The AAA report estimates gas and maintenance costs per mile at $0.17 to $0.23 depending on the type of car.<p>Second, I don&#x27;t believe it is right to include depreciation in a household budget because it does not manifest as an additional cost on top of the price of the car. Unless the car is listed as a line item on your household budget, you don&#x27;t have to account for any additional loss in value. Imagine that you bought a car in cash for $1000 and never drive it. You lose the $1000 immediately. If some years later the car is worth $0, your total cost of ownership is still just $1000, not $2000.<p>I believe the fact that people still chose to work for door dash is additional evidence that the estimated costs in this article are too high. We may not be perfect rational actors, but most of us can tell if our bank account is going up or down.<p>None of this excuses the unethical behavior of door dash, and personally I choose not to use them. I believe tips are intended as a gift to the driver, so it is misleading to call it a tip if the driver isn&#x27;t getting it. That said, I didn&#x27;t find this analysis convincing for the reasons above.
koolba超过 5 年前
Do DoorDash or if it’s competitors allow delivery drivers to set their own prices or max distances before receiving bids?<p>For example, can you say in advance “<i>Only accept $25+ jobs</i>” or “<i>Max distance 5 miles</i>”?
thomk超过 5 年前
Yeah, f<i>ck DoorDash.<p>DoorDash is the worst of all of these types of gig services. They are expensive, late, forget to grab items from the restaurant and they are not careful with food.<p>After a few times using them (and getting a different delivery person every time) a chilling thought occurred to me. There is nothing preventing a driver from either eating part of your food or tampering with it. Think about that. A total stranger is </i>completely alone* with your food with zero oversight.<p>Once I was at a Starbucks when I saw the strangest thing. Some dude rushes in with a carryout bag and sat at the nearest table. He opened the bag, opened one (of many) styrofoam containers and hurriedly ate only part of one meal. Then he packaged it all back up and drove away without buying anything from Starbucks.<p>At least in a restaurant you are dealing with employees and people are everywhere. DoorDashers work for a massive faceless corporation who has been shitty about pay and tips.<p>Why wouldn&#x27;t they grab a bite or two?
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ajcodez超过 5 年前
I can see why they did it that way. Fixing the algorithm would require setting the base pay relative to delivery cost and then canceling orders that don’t tip enough to get accepted. Not exactly palatable for customers. ”Your order was not accepted by any drivers. Try again!”
_vrmm超过 5 年前
Another one of those businesses that survive by worker slavery. Shameful, they all should go bankrupt.<p>Also, tips in a lot of jobs in USA are now basic for a job to be sustainable, incredible. Maybe &#x27;Tip&#x27; is no longer the appropriate word for that.<p>How are they allowed to pay such a misery?
didibus超过 5 年前
I&#x27;m still confused why would people keep working for DoorDash? No other jobs around? Would they just be unemployed if DoorDash closed down? Is it that DoorDash actually tricks people into working for them with hope of a higher wage which never comes?<p>I&#x27;m against the practices they put in place, but am more leaning on better universal income, health, basic amenities, things like that. And I&#x27;d hope that if that was the case, it would also mean no one works for DoorDash making 2$ an hour, since that&#x27;s less then your universal benefits would even give you. But I&#x27;m not sold on any one idea. So I&#x27;m asking to help refine my opinion. I feel I&#x27;m missing a piece of the picture here.
coryfklein超过 5 年前
Tipping is an outdated social concept that needs eliminating. If my Costco cashier is a dick to me, I report that to his manager and he gets disciplined. If my Costco cashier is super slow, his manager notices and he improves or gets fired.<p>Now why does this whole incentive&#x2F;reward model get flipped on its head when this person is delivering food to my table (or door)? If my DoorDash driver takes a long time, I have NO IDEA whether that&#x27;s because traffic was bad, there was snow on the road, the restaurant was busy, etc. What is even the purpose of the tip?<p>I&#x27;m more and more convinced, especially after doing a 7-day cruise last week, that tips are kept in place by the establishment merely as a way to lower perceived prices. DoorDash wants to charge you $25 for something, but advertise that it only costs $20. DoorDash is in a much better place than I to detect patterns of performance in their employees, as are restaurant managers, haircut salons, the list goes on.<p>In the end, the world would be a better place without tips. Those most capable of monitoring service quality would be stuck with that responsibility, prices would be communicated transparently, and, above all, total prices wouldn&#x27;t even change anyway!
birdyrooster超过 5 年前
I recently ordered food from a Bay Area Mexican restaurant. I was floored by the $63 total from Door Dash, so I decided to pick up the order myself. Upon arriving to the restaurant, the price came to $60. I found that the prices at their restaurant were higher than the DoorDash menu prices by about 15%. This means that the restaurant is forgoing 15% for their food just to be affordable enough to get orders.
cm2012超过 5 年前
This is an incredibly open market. If someone doesn&#x27;t like DoorDash&#x27;s payments, they can literally just install the Uber or Seamless or one of many other delivery apps and deliver that way. Since DoorDash is the market leader and does the most deliveries (according to the article), that leads me to believe most delivery folks would rather deliver with them, and not trust random articles like this.
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CriticalCathed超过 5 年前
The other thing is that these services aren&#x27;t even a good deal for the customers. I can order chinese from a local place by calling them and pay 30 instead of 20 w&#x2F; delivery, but with Doordash it ends up being almost double not including a tip. I&#x27;m not sure where the customers are coming from outside of drunks. It&#x27;s not a good value.
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ggm超过 5 年前
We&#x27;re destroying society, one working norm at a time. This is ludicrous, and the lack of regulatory oversight of this kind of vampire game, which winds up ripping off the food source, and the delivery agent in some wierd game of capitalism is a huge black mark on our generations time.<p>I cannot think of a reason to want to take work in the developed west, and casually turn it into this kind of serfdom. Every time I see gig economy workers in developing world economies, I think about this, and how immoral it is to uplift their drudgery and replace it into our context like there is no downside.<p>Has anyone else here read &quot;Down and out in Paris &amp; London&quot; which is Orwell&#x27;s record of his time in the Paris restaurant business, and then as a tramp (bum) on the road between workhouses in the UK? This is what we&#x27;re going back to.<p>This is insane. We have to stop backing the gig economy.
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bubblethink超过 5 年前
I recently discovered that doordash also jacks up the prices of items. $7 sandwich = 7 + 2 in markup + 2 in delivery&#x2F;service fees + 2 in tip if you tip = 13. So you pay roughly twice the amount and everyone is unhappy at the end other than doordash. How is this business model still working in the US ?
ZainRiz超过 5 年前
&gt; Our analysis of more than two hundred samples of pay data provided by DoorDash workers across the country finds that DoorDash pays the average worker an astonishingly low $1.45&#x2F;hour<p>Key words being &quot;provided by Doordash workers&quot;. Meaning at all of this &quot;analysis&quot; is based on the numbers being given by the most disgruntled workers who presumably make the least. This makes all their conclusions highly suspect.<p>And if these disgruntled employees are aware that they&#x27;re getting such a raw deal from Doordash, I&#x27;m wondering what stops them from going to a different company like Uber or Lyft instead. Those reportedly let people earn about $25 per hour (before expenses I think).
wrycoder超过 5 年前
I would guess that DoorDash is very negative for restaurants and restaurant waitstaff, also.
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chrisseaton超过 5 年前
Why do they do these tips?! Why not charge a total and pay all expenses and people from that? I don&#x27;t understand why the complicated setup and all the fuss that comes from it. Seems like they create problems for themselves out of nothing.
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jariel超过 5 年前
This model simply isn&#x27;t sustainable and only cash from gullible investors, perpetual scammy behaviour, and a never ending cycle of people trying to work for them for a while, especially while ignoring costs such as wear and tear on their car, and the fact they can skip all of those other things like health insurance, training etc. - keeps it afloat.<p>It&#x27;s time for these experiments to crash under the weight of the free market and basic regulation.<p>This is not the American Dream, quite the opposite.
jamisteven超过 5 年前
These &quot;gig&quot; and &quot;service&quot; companies are simply re-defining minimum wage and taking advantage of a segment of the populace that cant get minimum wage jobs for one reason or another. But yea, dont want 1.45 an hour then find another job. Dont want to be broke AF then dont have 3 kids. How can anyone take the examples in this article even remotely serious.
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why-oh-why超过 5 年前
It’s kind of surprising that anyone who works for these services for more than one day keeps working in these conditions. If you made $50 in one day and spent $40 in gas, why work again? Does Doordash pay more initially to “get them hooked?”<p>It’s definitely predatory practices of people who don’t understand that, after a day of work, you should have more money than what you spent.
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Data_Junkie超过 5 年前
Another system of mass stupidity. Our &quot;leaders&quot; should be absolutely ashamed of this disgusting &quot;advancement&quot; they have allowed to perpetuate uncontrolled. It&#x27;s pathetic, and everyone knows it. Yet once again nothing will happen to improve things, they will &quot;tweak&quot; the algorithm and call it a day.
whatitdobooboo超过 5 年前
Some valid points maybe but the article is a little misleading, bolding the $1.45 but then right after saying &quot;after mileage and expenses.&quot;<p>Not sure what a company like doordash can do in that case, are all doordash drivers driving fuel efficient cars?<p>Also, what factors in is that many people cannot afford cars that are in good shape.<p>Tips aspect is inexcusable, however.
d0100超过 5 年前
Why are people working for door dash with cars?<p>This is the kind of job for motorcycles and bycicles (in denser cities)
3fe9a03ccd14ca5超过 5 年前
&gt; <i>The company repeatedly defended this wildly unpopular tip-swiping pay model over several waves of public controversy</i><p>The real controversy is why, in 2020 and only in the USA, do we have a business model that offloads the employee compensation responsibility onto customers?
ipince超过 5 年前
It&#x27;d be interesting to do this analysis with other type of vehicles, like scooters or bikes. The mileage&#x2F;depreciation is substantially lower, to the point where it might not be that bad of a pay (and if you&#x27;re biking, you can get some exercise too).
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fulldecent2超过 5 年前
Regarding IRS Standard Mileage Rates.<p>There are different costs to insure a vehicle based on whether it is &quot;personal&quot; use or &quot;business&quot; use. The IRS rate does not distinguish these. Is there any documentation on which scenario IRS is assuming this applies to?
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makecheck超过 5 年前
As we get closer and closer to “no need for cash”, I find with food delivery I always want cash around for tips because it is the only way to know for sure what happens with the money. I shouldn’t have to do that.
mattmaroon超过 5 年前
Door Dash is so fucking shady. I ordered something from a local restaurant there. When the food was 45 minutes late, I drove there. Turns out the restaurant had never even heard of Door Dash.
walterkrankheit超过 5 年前
We have similar issues in Berlin with wildly exploited workers... the only thing that keeps it one step above here is that they are all bicycle driven, so fuel costs are not a factor.
rutherf0rd超过 5 年前
Although the claims seem reasonable, the dataset is fairy small, 200 data points. It would be great if they continued to build the data, and even better if they opened it up.
sbr464超过 5 年前
I’ve heard from some restaurants that the main reason for not supporting delivery companies is the large # of chargebacks. I’d be curious to confirm.
wayanon超过 5 年前
Is there no payment in the US to parents from the Gov for parents? Eg in UK there is ‘child benefit’. An amount of money paid per child.
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synaesthesisx超过 5 年前
This is why we need autonomous delivery services. Exploiting robots is acceptable, exploiting humans on the other hand isn&#x27;t.<p>I&#x27;ve seen a couple of these around in LA ( <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;thespoon.tech&#x2F;postmates-serve-robot-spotted-and-filmed-making-deliveries-in-la&#x2F;" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;thespoon.tech&#x2F;postmates-serve-robot-spotted-and-film...</a> ) and can only hope they become mainstream in the very near future.
fulldecent2超过 5 年前
How can companies be incentivized to WANT to hire employees rather than having contractors be the default choice?
fapjacks超过 5 年前
This rent-seeking behavior is amplified in its ridiculousness because of how expensive DoorDash is to begin with.
hurricanetc超过 5 年前
This is supply and demand in action. From a strictly capitalist perspective DoorDash should continue to drop wages until people stop working for them. The equilibrium is obviously lower than their current payouts or people wouldn’t continue driving for them.<p>I don’t think it is possible to make money in the gig economy driving a vehicle. These articles talk about direct car expenses but never talk about indirect. If you factor in vehicle depreciation I am convinced that the net wage for driving is below $0.
Apocryphon超过 5 年前
So how do other food delivery companies avoid this? Isn’t it a commodified service?
thelookingglass超过 5 年前
I wonder what that 12.6 billion market valuation will drop to after the crash
willart4food超过 5 年前
It&#x27;s a race to the bottom, whoever charges less &quot;wins&quot;.
darkmagnus超过 5 年前
People really need to learn to cook....
burlesona超过 5 年前
What I struggle with is why anyone would deliver for Door Dash if the pay is so bad.<p>The article closes with a statement that they want $15&#x2F;hour plus expenses for drivers. The obvious problem is that I can’t see customers paying that much for delivery - ie. at those wages Door Dash can’t exist.<p>The fact that people choose to do the work makes me think there are people who find it worthwhile, and I can explain a few scenarios that make a lot more sense than the ones in the article:<p>I live in SF, which is only about 7mi by 7mi square, so if you do door dash here it’s very unlikely for a delivery to require more than 2-3 mi of travel. Further I see a lot of deliveries made on bikes, skateboards, scooters, etc. so the cost is much lower than the suburban deliveries made by car.<p>I see a lot of young delivery people, who I imagine may be high school or college students who just want a few bucks spending money without any kind of time commitment, and maybe this works nicely for them.<p>Regulating the wages to try and turn door dash into a “family feeding” job seems like it would do nothing but kill the business (and all the gig businesses), depriving people who want that kind of ultimate flexibility of the freedom and also depriving customers of a really convenient service.<p>But I <i>do</i> think regulation could be very beneficial in creating transparency around payment to both the customer and the gig worker. I can see no reason the companies should be allowed to obscure what they pay their workers, where tips for, how many miles the worker traveled on a job etc. That kind of information is fair and reasonable to provide, and would help avoid gig companies exploiting people who unfortunately may not understand how to properly value their expenses.<p>The final thing I would argue is that it’s reasonable to prohibit <i>blind</i> auctions, as door dash does.<p>Instead of randomly pairing a person to a job, giving them only seconds to respond, and penalizing them (by not offering more) if they fail to respond, it would be much more fair to have a real-time auction map showing all deliveries that need to be picked up in a certain area, where they need to go, how much the pay is, and then letting them “sit on the map” and slowly tick up in price until a worker picks one. That’s a half-baked brainstorm so maybe that’s not the right implementation, but my point is simply:<p>1. I think regulating gig wages is a blunt instrument that would mostly end the gig companies and possibly entrench one or two mega corps as survivors that are still exploitive toward workers - whereas providing information transparency could potentially preserve the good things about gig jobs while eliminating the majority of bad outcomes for workers.<p>2. The real problem seems to be that there are so many people in need of “family feeding” jobs who are working for Door Dash etc. instead. When we talk about a “historically low unemployment rate,” things like this make it ring hollow to me. Clearly there are a lot of people unable to get better work, who as a result are really hurting economically, and we need to do a better job measuring and understanding that problem so we can respond more effectively to it.
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mnm1超过 5 年前
This is exactly why we have labor laws, especially minimum wage laws. This company wouldn&#x27;t exist if we had properly written laws that protected all workers, but they hide behind the excuse that people working for them are contractors blah blah... yeah we get it and it&#x27;s time to close such idiotic loopholes. Contractor or not, at these rates, no one is independent. That&#x27;s frankly ludicrous unless someone invented a way to clone people and make them into slaves. And the people working these sub minimum wage jobs to make a living deserve better. They deserve the minimum wage like everyone else, although I&#x27;m sure plenty of people here will argue that they deserve to starve and die of treatable diseases so they can make billionaires ever so slightly richer.
e_tm_超过 5 年前
Tip in cash.
rdxm超过 5 年前
The &quot;Gig Economy&quot; will ultimately go down in history as one of the greatest frauds ever perpetrated on the broader public.
DraftDodger67超过 5 年前
It seems like the biggest problem that &#x27;Mariah&#x27; at the top of the article faces is that she has too many children, no partner, and her car is too fuel inefficient.<p>The best way to help people in her situation is to encourage family planning, marriage, and cheap electric vehicles.
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nextlevelwizard超过 5 年前
This is pretty simple. If you make just enough for gas and can&#x27;t feed your kids, you need to find another job.<p>This is exactly the same out cry every restaurant server makes: &quot;without tips I couldn&#x27;t live! so you are responsible to tip if you eat out&quot;. When in reality they have to make enough to keep working, so that is just social pressure from them to bleed out money from rest of us.<p>In no other job would we tolerate this kind of behavior. Why should we feel bad for these people?
TrackerFF超过 5 年前
If consumers aren&#x27;t willing to pay more, then I truly hope this gigging economy goes down the drain.<p>I live in a country with extremely strong labor laws, and for the past 3-4 years we&#x27;ve seen more and more of these gigging companies &#x2F; startups try, and surprise surprise, they&#x27;re fighting tooth and nail to get around labor laws - because that&#x27;s where their edge and profitability lies.<p>This is gonna sound harsh, but If you live in a country with abysmal labor laws, and you&#x27;re getting exploited by companies like that...well, I don&#x27;t particularly care. You need to get your laws and rights fixed, that&#x27;s all I can say.<p>But to bring this garbage here, that&#x27;s where I personally draw a line.