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Noticing You're Confused

206 点作者 Nyubis超过 5 年前

22 条评论

ChuckMcM超过 5 年前
That is a uniquely scary story. I have only had the displeasure of hiring one person who effectively lied their way into the position. It was really obvious after they started that they had grossly overstated their skills and experience. My point of &#x27;confusion&#x27; was that their reference checks were people who had worked with them, liked them but not for very long because they were leaving when that person joined, Etc. I had asked about many short tenures in their resume but as an individual contributor they passed it off as &quot;finding a challenge they could bite their teeth into&quot; and basically working their way up the pay ladder.<p>At Google people got &quot;starter projects&quot; I liked this idea to get an idea of what they could do, and its an opportunity to understand what they are good at. I gave the person an assignment that, given their experience, should have been well within their capabilities. They kept not delivering and kept up a steady patter of &quot;knocking down the barriers&quot; communications which, valid or not, got me wondering what was going on with this person. At the one month point I gave them a pretty clear deliverable and worked with them for a timeline for when it would be done. They were &quot;almost&quot; done at the agreed upon time two weeks later, so I asked them to present it one week from that date to the group. The presentation was an epic disaster in terms of not coming close to meeting the deliverable, not showing any development in understanding the problem, and generally being something a new hire could have come up with in less time.<p>At our 1:1 that week we talked about the deliverable, my expectations given the experience they claimed to have, and what we got. I got a lot of &quot;I just need x, y, and z and then it will be done.&quot; kind of discussion. Delving into those needs became &quot;waiting on p, q, and r to deliver this part.&quot; kinds of discussions.<p>At the end of our 1:1 that week I asked them if they were satisfied with their performance. They felt it was ok and would get better with time. I told them I didn&#x27;t feel we could afford that time and that Friday would be their last day. I was bummed that we wasted nearly 2 months on this person. I don&#x27;t think anyone in the organization was surprised to see them go.
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rjkennedy98超过 5 年前
I don&#x27;t think this is as rare as you might imagine. When I started doing engineering interviews at our last company I was startled about how obsessive they were about doing video interviews because I hadn&#x27;t ever remember doing them in previous jobs. If video resolution was bad they would simply cut the interview and ask to reschedule.<p>When I asked why they did this, to my surprise they said they had been scammed by people who did phone interviews well, and in the on site interviews were completely incapable of answering the same questions at all. They we sure they had been catfished by multiple recruits.
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dpiers超过 5 年前
The interesting thing about white collar fraud is that it rarely goes reported, and there are little repercussions unless it does. Companies care less about protecting other companies from harm than the risk of exposing themselves to claims of libel or slander by the accused. It&#x27;s also not great press if people find out you hired a con-artist or allowed someone to steal from you because of your poor internal controls. A study in Norway found that 96% of cases of corporate fraud were not reported to authorities.[1] The financial and reputational costs of a company pursuing prosecution outweigh the benefits, and it&#x27;s usually better to keep things quiet: terminate the individual and recoup whatever losses you are able to without involving the legal system.<p>Even in this scenario of blatant fraud, Arram stopped short of explicitly naming the individual. ZeroCater was saved a huge hiring mistake, but &#x27;Sam&#x27; probably went on to another company that is clueless to his scam.<p>This is why I always ask why someone is looking for a new opportunity&#x2F;why they left their previous position. If the answer doesn&#x27;t add up, I press for more info. Maybe they&#x27;re just embarrassed because they were fired? People get fired all the time for reasons that don&#x27;t necessarily preclude them from being valuable to me. But if they still can&#x27;t come up with an answer that makes sense, I start &quot;noticing I&#x27;m confused&quot;.<p>[1]: <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.tandfonline.com&#x2F;doi&#x2F;abs&#x2F;10.1080&#x2F;01639625.2016.1196993?scroll=top&amp;needAccess=true&amp;journalCode=udbh20" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.tandfonline.com&#x2F;doi&#x2F;abs&#x2F;10.1080&#x2F;01639625.2016.11...</a>
sumanthvepa超过 5 年前
Clearly there was fraud here. But I&#x27;m curious about the the interview process.<p>If the person was a fraud, how did he get through the technical and management interviews? Surely talking to someone for 5 mins would help you figure out if they were technically competent. So apparently the interview process had zero decision value. Why bother interviewing candidates then? They should just check references and get on with it. Or fix your interview process.
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NhanH超过 5 年前
Imagine if you read the autobiography of a big name and they told a story about how they hack the interviewing process of X company, getting they first big break which resulted in all the big successes afterward. How much admiration would he get for that, a #1 HN story even.<p>I do get confused reading this story, at least I wish it continue on for a bit afterward (how was his reaction, other people&#x27;s reaction. Did you end up hiring someone?)
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rainyMammoth超过 5 年前
&gt; the demand for qualified engineering managers being far, far, greater than the supply.<p>That&#x27;s not really what it is. Let&#x27;s rephrase it as &quot;the demand for engineering managers that pass your completely subjective interview process which is completely unrelated to the job&quot;.
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juanbyrge超过 5 年前
What if you missed out on hiring the Steve Jobs of the catering industry?<p><pre><code> Jobs had no real engineering experience to bring to the table. He had a small amount of education from Reed College, but it was in a completely unrelated major, and he had dropped out early. But he had a way with words, seemed to have a passion for technology, and probably lied about having worked at Hewlett-Packard. &quot;I figured, this guy&#x27;s gotta be cheap, man. He really doesn&#x27;t have much skills at all,&quot; Alcorn remembers. &quot;So I figured I&#x27;d hire him.&quot;</code></pre>
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rainyMammoth超过 5 年前
And yet the sad conclusion is that even though that hire lied on his resume he might very well be an excellent match for that job given he passed the interviews and everyone seemed to love him.<p>If I was the CEO (author of the blog) I would ask myself why I put so many artificial barriers. Why does it matter that he got a similar position for the job if he was going to be good at it anyways?<p>I&#x27;m getting mad at all of those artificial gatekeepers that like to also play victim because &quot;there are not enough talents out there&quot;.<p>Yes that guy lied on his resume and therefore should not be hired (and he should be shamed). But this CEO should also realize that his artificial gate-keeping is the reason why people feel the need to lie.
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kstenerud超过 5 年前
Hang on... I&#x27;m confused here:<p>&gt; Not only had he lied about his experience, he’d set up fake identities complete with LinkedIn profiles with hundreds of connections, then gotten people who were complicit in his lie to pretend to be those people on the phone.<p>&gt; I sat down and tried to trace the source of my confusion. Sam didn’t have a LinkedIn profile, and when I asked him why he said he turned it off because he got too much recruiter spam, which was entirely believable. He said he’d turn it back on and send me the link, but hadn’t followed up. It wasn’t much, but it was certainly a bit odd given how reliable he seemed in general.<p>Why would someone who&#x27;d spent months, perhaps even years cultivating a network of fake LinkedIn profiles and confederates, not have a linkedin profile himself when not having one would immediately arouse suspicion? It&#x27;s not like it&#x27;s at all difficult to doctor your work links. Even his wife supposedly had a profile, faking as a VP at the company in question.<p>Something doesn&#x27;t add up here.
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rusticpenn超过 5 年前
The idea I get from this is that, the quality of a management candidate cannot be detected from interviews?
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Yessing超过 5 年前
if the best candidate you interviewed is a fraud:<p>- either the candidate was competent:<p>then why did he need to lie to get the job? maybe you&#x27;re over-filtering based on resume and years of experience. The variable your looking for is competence. Years of experience, is just a proxy. if the proxy is drying up your supply, maybe it&#x27;s not an effective one.<p>moreover, people are not born managers. why not give new talent a chance.<p>- the candidate was not competent:<p>The interview process is therefore broken and is not measuring competence. Maybe you&#x27;re overvaluing confidence or the speed of answering. Maybe the questions are not Technical enough? I don&#x27;t know. But notice that valuing anything that is irrelevant would lead to a lower expected value of candidate&#x27;s competence.<p>Using ineffective tools while searching for something rare is unsurprisingly hard.<p>As a side comment, I&#x27;m kinda taken aback by the fact that interview results like &quot;culture fit&quot; are shared this way. I would&#x27;ve expected a higher standard of privacy. Is this commonly accepted?<p>Another point, I&#x27;ve noticed that the hiring process involved a lot of &quot;friend &#x2F; wife of a friend&quot;. Wouldn&#x27;t this if left unchecked cause some ethnic&#x2F;age-based bias ( not necessarily in a legal sense)?
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sfink超过 5 年前
Reminds me of my similar experience, which I wrote up at <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.quora.com&#x2F;Have-you-ever-had-a-bad-gut-feeling-about-someone-and-it-was-right&#x2F;answer&#x2F;Steve-Fink" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.quora.com&#x2F;Have-you-ever-had-a-bad-gut-feeling-ab...</a>
mikedilger超过 5 年前
I had an interviewee who was answering questions quite well but kind of shrugging me off when I dug deeper. Then I asked a question I hadn&#x27;t asked before and he actually complained that the question wasn&#x27;t fair because he didn&#x27;t get a chance to study for that question. I recommended against. The hiring manager, to my suprise, let him go &quot;study&quot; and come back for more questions. The whole team being on to this, we asked very different questions the second time around and he failed miserably. We all recommended against. Again to my suprise, the hiring manager decided he liked him and hired him. After a re-org and under a new manager, it took about six months IIRC to legally get rid of the guy. Nice guy - wrong fit.
awesome_dude超过 5 年前
So, I have been giving this a bit of thought, when I interview badly (and I have a zillion times), it&#x27;s mostly because I&#x27;m not used to vocalising my thoughts whilst I work.<p>That is interviewer: Tell me what your next step is in solving this problem me: &lt;radio silence&gt;<p>The problem is two things, I, as an engineer, barely ever talk to people as I am solving whatever it is I am doing, so the interview is a completely artificial environment that I am not equipped for (although, as I interview more I get back into the groove and by the third or fourth interview I am able to anticipate the questions and produce a mechanical answer that satisfies the interviewer)<p>The second part of the problem is obvious, the interviewer has no clue why I cannot answer the question, so can only assume it&#x27;s a lack of skills on my part.<p>Interviews are an artificial environment, there&#x27;s no way an interviewer can actually tell from the interview whether the person in front of them is a good engineer or not.<p>When I have got a few interviews under my belt, I am fluent, and able to demonstrate my theory knowledge clearly. Have my skills changed? Not really, my interview skills for sure, but my engineering skills?<p>Interviewers often try to counter this by searching for some obscure factoid within the technology and wondering why people being interviewed don&#x27;t know it (curiously there&#x27;s the other problem here where interviewers themselves have an erroneous understanding of the technology and this leads to false negatives).
dnh44超过 5 年前
I felt the same sense of mild confusion as I read this, until I got to the end when I realised that I’ve read various versions of this same urban legend two or three times over the previous 20 years.
Tenoke超过 5 年前
You say he passed all your questions with flying colours, everyone liked him, etc.<p>If he hadn&#x27;t lied about his specific experience would you have hired him?
stevage超过 5 年前
I feel like the valuable lesson here is: references provided by candidates aren&#x27;t worth very much.
austincheney超过 5 年前
&gt; It was at this point that I actually said out loud to myself “I notice I’m confused.”<p>Strange how never this occurs when executing or designing web technologies, particularly the DOM. Instead people jump immediately to the largest prepackaged solutions currently available without question, everything plus the kitchen sink, as normal as breathing. <i>Invented here</i> syndrome is the default without even the most subtle hint of consideration.<p>This is perhaps most clearly realized in that most developers have some irrational horrid fear of the DOM when they encounter it and yet simultaneously find the DOM to be some sort of savior to allowing Web Assembly to replace JavaScript. Never is the confusion or irrationality questioned in favor of something comforting.<p>I also find it strange how eagerly people are willing to impose bias in hiring and candidate selection to ensure the most important selection criteria is conformance opposed to performance. It really is as though the thought <i>I notice I’m confused</i> is something fearful to be protected from instead of confronted when developers are tasked with hiring.
NiceWayToDoIT超过 5 年前
Yes I have that sense of &quot;Confusion&#x27; just now about this article. So let me understand, &quot;Sam&quot; was best technical candidate ever, knowing all the answers and everything but somehow he lied about who he was?!<p>Over time people build distrust toward recruiters, why: - they use cold calling, - as soon as you resign they call to find who are your references, not to offer you a job, but to find who is lead contact in previous company they can call and so they could someone just to get that 20+% fee... - in order for these to succeed they need to use social engineering techniques (they pretend they are friendly) - they post fake job ads to collect CV ... - have I mentioned huge fees for literally doing nothing .... and on and on and on ....<p>Who ever was wrote this article he should just zip it ....
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juanbyrge超过 5 年前
&quot;Jobs had no real engineering experience to bring to the table. He had a small amount of education from Reed College, but it was in a completely unrelated major, and he had dropped out early. But he had a way with words, seemed to have a passion for technology, and probably lied about having worked at Hewlett-Packard.<p>&quot;I figured, this guy&#x27;s gotta be cheap, man. He really doesn&#x27;t have much skills at all,&quot; Alcorn remembers. &quot;So I figured I&#x27;d hire him.&quot;&quot;
nodesocket超过 5 年前
Something about this story doesn’t add up to me. Maybe I am being cynical but it seems like this was fabricated for the exposure.
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drewcoo超过 5 年前
So &quot;the rationalist community&quot; relies on gut feelings? Now I&#x27;m confused and it&#x27;s only the first non-italic paragraph.
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