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The Myth of the Barter Economy (2016)

147 点作者 IA21超过 5 年前

25 条评论

wazoox超过 5 年前
Ancient history is very interesting in these matters: back in the Bronze Age, kings such as Pharaoh and the Hittite, Assyrian, Minoan kings actually did international trade through &quot;gifts&quot;.<p>For instance the Pharaoh was in need of cedar wood, so he would write to the King of the Assyrians in Sumerian (the <i>lingua franca</i> of the time) &quot;Dear cousin, I would like to send you some gifts but I&#x27;m out of boats. Cheers, Ramses&quot;.<p>To which his &quot;dear cousin&quot; would reply &quot;Dear cousin, I&#x27;m sending you these cedar logs so that you can build these boats you need. Did I tell you that drought has hit Niniveh and the corn is scarce? Yours, Sennahcherib&quot;. Then Pharaoh would send back boats full of grain, and so on.
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not_buying_it超过 5 年前
David Graeber has a nice way of explaining money arising from IOU&#x27;s in Debt: the first 5,000 years. It makes a lot of sense and basically explains why the barter myth is so impractical that it could never have been a reality in any sizable community.
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nk1tz超过 5 年前
The more interesting way to analyze history, rather than trying to evaluate the degree of barter, is to seek out the most saleable good which was in use at a given place and time. Humans must solve the problem of &quot;coincidence of wants&quot; (ie. You raise chickens and I&#x27;m a woodworker - do we always need each other&#x27;s goods?). Naturally, they begin to use the most saleable good available to their community as &quot;money&quot; for trade. The most saleable good (the most marketable and easy to sell) is usually the good available to them which scores highest on the following five properties (imagine a radar chart): Divisibility, Durability, Portability, Fungibility, Scarcity.<p>This way of thinking can provide a satisfying explanation of the emergence of gold as a global store of value.<p>For more reading: <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;mises.org&#x2F;library&#x2F;origin-money-and-its-value" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;mises.org&#x2F;library&#x2F;origin-money-and-its-value</a>
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leto_ii超过 5 年前
This was a valuable read.<p>I think a similar misunderstanding takes place with Hobbes&#x27;s idea that the man in the state of nature lived in a war of all against all. There&#x27;s simply no evidence that this ever happened, even though it has been used by Hobbes and others as a justification for the need of oppressive institutions.<p>I think that if we start investigating the conceptual underpinnings of things quite a bit of economical and political thought will prove to be essentially unfounded and unscientific.<p>This being said, we can&#x27;t entirely fault people like Hobbes and Smith who didn&#x27;t have access to the investigative tools that are now available. We can however fault today&#x27;s social scientists who continue to build on faulty foundations instead of honestly reassessing their theories.
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timwaagh超过 5 年前
Not sure whether the expansion of this &#x27;psychological debt model&#x27; is desirable. Because it&#x27;s impossible to quantify such debts without money, it becomes more difficult to optimize allocation. Maybe the people in the woods haven&#x27;t found water during many days. Suppose I have some water. More than I&#x27;d need for now, but not enough to last for years. I would not be inclined to give any to them. Sure, the woods people might make me a meal or sing for me which is nice, but my water supply is ultimately a guarantee for my long term survival. But if they did have even the concept of money, they might offer a high price, a price that allows me to say &#x27;hey, with these resources i could build a house&#x2F;attract a partner&#x2F;drive away in a lambo and that&#x27;s more useful to me than one month out of my seven months of water&#x27;. The antropologies make a compelling case for a different precursor to money and these gift economies are very similar to a money based economy. But money does offer the additional benefit of value quantification and security of deposits.
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milesvp超过 5 年前
There was a great blog post I saw some years ago on HN about someone reminiscing about halloween candy trading as a kid. They remembered fondly about just how organized the trading quickly became. it was all barter, but there emerged quickly a candy franca. All the kids were willing to accept three muskateers bars because they knew others would accept them, and worst case they were at least tolerable to eat.<p>While I agree that the barter economy as a rhetorical construct is most certainly made up, being very useful in freshman econ, I’m not convinced it money could possibly happen without first having trade in general. I would argue that money happens very quickly, which is why you’re not going to see a lot of evidence of extensive barter. If one childhood is enough to establish a candy currency, then you’d expect a similar currency to develop very quickly in any society.
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m4nu3l超过 5 年前
At some point the article states that money &quot;might just be a choice&quot;, but I think the article itself is pointing to the evidence it is not.<p>The git economy in a village and the one in a community of friends have something in common. Another hint is yet in the article when it states &quot;it&#x27;s hard to imagine a gift economy working to build skyscrapers and iPhones&quot;.<p>It seems pretty clear to me that the problem of a gift economy is that it doesn&#x27;t scale.<p>As long as every person in a group knows each other it is fairly easy to keep track of gifts given and received. This becomes impossible as the group grows and the number of people each person has to keep track of grows with O(n).<p>Of course you can divide a big number of people into groups and have those groups use a gift economy between them by having leaders keeping track of gifts given and received between groups.<p>And of course can also have multiple levels of subdivision. But the problem becomes clear. The system is quite centralized and there is no direct way for someone in one of those groups to exchange goods and services directly with someone of another one without the good or service going up the command chain and down to the other side.
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trhway超过 5 年前
in 199x in Russia the B2B economy was working basically on barter. The accounting&#x2F;business software support for 5-10 segment length chains of &quot;mutual credit&quot; (&quot;vzaimozachet&quot;) involving multiple business partners between your product and finally money (or something almost as liquid as money) was a feat of business software engineering separating leaders from the chaff - while the world line of a given barter chain may have been crossing spacelike&#x2F;timelike boundary several times it still had to look correctly in all accounting frames of reference :)<p>One of the things which emerged to be almost as good as money back then was &quot;energy credits&quot; with large power plants and networks serving as a kind of banks&#x2F;clearing houses.
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rusabd超过 5 年前
Is this article just rehashing a chapter from &quot;The Debt, first 5000 years&quot;?
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dnprock超过 5 年前
The relationship between monies and goods has been murky. But it&#x27;s kinda cool to cut a clear line to say that bartering economy exists before money. But I think they always co-exist. This relationship is more like chicken and egg.<p>I did some research on how gold became money. Archeologists found evidence of gold usage dated 40,000 BC. When gold shows up in written history around 10,000 BC, it&#x27;s already money. We did not really know if gold was good first or money first. I conclude that it&#x27;s a little bit of both when humans first found it. I wrote about the topic in this article:<p><a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;bitflate.org&#x2F;post&#x2F;2019&#x2F;11&#x2F;29&#x2F;how-gold-became-money.html" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;bitflate.org&#x2F;post&#x2F;2019&#x2F;11&#x2F;29&#x2F;how-gold-became-money.h...</a><p>Going back further, I think we can say sex was the first kind of currency. Organisms exchange sex to reproduce.<p>Today, we have Bitcoin. It&#x27;s also unclear how we should define it: asset or money. The answer is it&#x27;s a little bit of both. I hope the IRS will lower the tax rate on Bitcoin when they understand this.
pharke超过 5 年前
Money is just a representation of the debt incurred in a &quot;gift&quot; economy (a &quot;debt&quot; economy would be a better term for it) and allows the extension of those practices to strangers or people you don&#x27;t trust or can&#x27;t have some influence over. Gift economies still exist today in Western countries, often in rural areas among neighbors where you will do a favor, help out, or lend an item in exchange for likewise help at a later date. This works well in small groups that know each other well but breaks down when it becomes hard to track who did what for whom. Hence the invention of a tally system like money.
einpoklum超过 5 年前
I read about this anthropological&#x2F;historical fact in David Graeber&#x27;s excellent &quot;Debt: The First 5000 Years&quot;, mentioned in the article. More about that book:<p><a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;en.wikipedia.org&#x2F;wiki&#x2F;Debt%3A_The_First_5000_Years" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;en.wikipedia.org&#x2F;wiki&#x2F;Debt%3A_The_First_5000_Years</a><p>or you can just download it. How&#x27;s that fir a gift economy? :-)<p><a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;libcom.org&#x2F;files&#x2F;__Debt__The_First_5_000_Years.pdf" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;libcom.org&#x2F;files&#x2F;__Debt__The_First_5_000_Years.pdf</a>
samatman超过 5 年前
I find Nick Szabo&#x27;s argument that money-like collectibles were in fact the key technological advantage Homo Sapiens had over Homo Neanderthalensis an intriguing one:<p><a href="http:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.fon.hum.uva.nl&#x2F;rob&#x2F;Courses&#x2F;InformationInSpeech&#x2F;CDROM&#x2F;Literature&#x2F;LOTwinterschool2006&#x2F;szabo.best.vwh.net&#x2F;shell.html" rel="nofollow">http:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.fon.hum.uva.nl&#x2F;rob&#x2F;Courses&#x2F;InformationInSpeech&#x2F;CD...</a><p>It&#x27;s safe to say that something-like-money is substantially older than agriculture.
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jelliclesfarm超过 5 年前
All marriages in ancient kingdoms were barters.<p>It still exists today as ‘giving away’ of the bride. The female’s dna and germline gets the best it can buy with dowries and the bride’s attributes.
taneq超过 5 年前
In games, even when the game is explicitly designed not to have currency, players will invent one in order to facilitate trade. It&#x27;d be strange if humans didn&#x27;t do this in real life too.
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mgraczyk超过 5 年前
Interesting that they mentioned The Rainbow Gathering as an example gift economy, rather than Burning man which is 7x larger and I would guess more widely known.
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carapace超过 5 年前
No mention of <i>potlatch</i>.<p>&gt; A potlatch is a gift-giving feast practiced by indigenous peoples of the Pacific Northwest Coast of Canada and the United States,[1] among whom it is traditionally the primary governmental institution, legislative body, and economic system.<p><a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;en.wikipedia.org&#x2F;wiki&#x2F;Potlatch" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;en.wikipedia.org&#x2F;wiki&#x2F;Potlatch</a><p>- - - -<p>I have a crude &quot;theory&quot; that economic forms follow density:<p>Small groups, families and small clans, operate more-or-less communally (not political Communism; I mean communal living. Sharing resources, etc.)<p>Larger groups, tribes and neighborhoods, operate more-or-less on barter or favor-balancing.<p>Beyond that, you get money evolving out of long-distance trade, and modern mercantile and financial (as contrasted with &quot;just&quot; economic) systems.
jkhdigital超过 5 年前
It was a good article until the gift economy crap at the end. Game theory explains all of this quite well.<p>Money is desirable because it makes transactions and economic calculation so much easier. As a pure abstraction, money is simply a ledger (<a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.minneapolisfed.org&#x2F;research&#x2F;sr&#x2F;sr218.pdf" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.minneapolisfed.org&#x2F;research&#x2F;sr&#x2F;sr218.pdf</a>). When humans live in small groups related by blood, they just keep the ledger in their heads (if at all) because the penalty of cheating is so great that no one will defect (exile from the tribe and a lonely death).<p>When humans need to transact with people and there is uncertainty about (a) whether they will be able to punish cheating, and (b) whether they will ever meet this trading partner again, then they will use a more explicit and trustworthy form of money to reduce the risks. For most of human history the only real option here was some kind of physical token, which had to approximate the ledger abstraction: uniform in quality, easily divisible, easy to authenticate, with as inelastic a supply as possible.<p>The modern sovereign state allows for fiat money, since the state can simply declare that its official currency is the ledger that everyone will use. It&#x27;s quite efficient, since you can do things like maintain a banking system that exists primarily as numbers in a spreadsheet rather than vaults full of dusty gold bars. Our fractional reserve system also mingle debt and money, and for most of us the two are equivalent.<p>This makes perfect sense when you consider that money is a claim on the future output of everyone who agrees to use the money. It&#x27;s an EOU: everyone owes you. Thus, if you issue fiat currency against public debt, it&#x27;s effectively an EOU as well since everyone in the economy is indirectly responsible for the eventual repayment of that debt. Of course, sovereign currencies have borders, so looking at the ledger used by governments to keep score amongst themselves is quite telling.<p>However, when there is no socially accepted authority to dictate consensus, how do mutually disinterested individuals agree on a form of money? This was a pure thought experiment until the invention of Bitcoin, because the options were exceptionally limited: precious metals were so much better than anything else that had been tried, for reasons I won&#x27;t go into here, that there really wasn&#x27;t a choice. But with Bitcoin, you have a protocol for digital cash that can be used to create an infinite number of ledgers with the same desirable properties. How do we choose which one to use?<p>The answer, of course, is proof-of-work.
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JackFr超过 5 年前
Author seems ignorant of <a href="http:&#x2F;&#x2F;icm.clsbe.lisboa.ucp.pt&#x2F;docentes&#x2F;url&#x2F;jcn&#x2F;ie2&#x2F;0POWCamp.pdf" rel="nofollow">http:&#x2F;&#x2F;icm.clsbe.lisboa.ucp.pt&#x2F;docentes&#x2F;url&#x2F;jcn&#x2F;ie2&#x2F;0POWCamp...</a>
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bluetomcat超过 5 年前
A similar kind of a &quot;delayed barter&quot; economy did exist until recently in communist Bulgaria. Without any intervention from the government, people were exchanging items and doing mutual personal favours (sometimes against the law), all based on one&#x27;s &quot;social network&quot;.<p>Knowing the shopkeeper in the butchery meant that he could reserve the fresh meat for you once it gets delivered, while you, for example, as a car repair guy in a state enterprise would provide him with some parts for his Lada from any leftover quantities. It was a hidden parallel economy that was &quot;boosting&quot; the planned economy. No kind of accounting was taking place between the exchanging parties, people were doing it for their own interest in the long run.<p>These types of relations between people were (and still are) leading to many corrupt practices. A police officer or any kind of state representative would treat you differently if you were a part of their social circles. It&#x27;s a toxic environment where you start putting greater value on connections rather than on actual work and self-development.
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codingmess超过 5 年前
&quot;On paper, this sounds a bit like delayed barter, but it bears some significant differences.&quot;<p>Yeah sorry, but it is a barter economy. They only frame it differently to get their papers published.<p>Yes, it may work not exactly like described in the economics textbooks (and gift economies have some interesting specific properties). But I am really tired of people claiming everything in economics textbooks is to be taken absolutely literal, and if the real world is not like that, then classical economics has been refuted.<p>Of course they use idealized models in the textbooks, including the rational actor. The economists are well aware that they are using simplified models.
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baud147258超过 5 年前
The historical informations on the non-existence of barter economies was interesting, but then the article went into a nosedive with an anarcho-anticapitalist rant on the evils of money.
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TopHand超过 5 年前
While this is a thought provoking article, it makes assumptions that are not necessarily true. If a person thinks in terms of resources and not in terms of products you can begin to see the fallacies. It is easy for a group with common interests to share resources. The problems begin to arise when the group doesn&#x27;t have a resource that it needs. As an example, if the Iroquois lived in a region where there was no obsidian which they would want for making tools and hunting instruments, they would need to approach a neighboring community that has access to the material If that community didn&#x27;t want the Iroquois to have that material because it would upset the balance of power in that this material could also be used for making weapons of war. If the other community already had all the resources it needed to comfortably survive, how would the Iroquois over come their reluctance to give them obsidian? For the Iroquois this is becoming a matter of survival of their people. It they don&#x27;t have this resource they won&#x27;t have the tools they need to farm or to hunt. This is just a simple example, with more complex societies the more complex the problems. In my life time, I have seen people try to sustain &quot;gift economies&quot;. I remember the communes of the sixties. On paper they sounded quite reasonable. Most of them didn&#x27;t survive or evolved into capitalistic economies. One last point. Slavery was not an out come of the invention of money. It was the out come of the invention of war. What do you do with enemy combatants that surrender? Do you just kill them? Not if your humane. You make them slaves.
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sebsito超过 5 年前
As Smith described, people didn&#x27;t invent money straight away. First, resources like salt and metals; then stuff you can melt (easily divisible). Then official coins of equal weight to fight counterfeiting and inaccuracy of weight.<p>I&#x27;m afraid this is one of the &quot;history doesn&#x27;t fit my ideology&quot; pieces.
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mantrid84超过 5 年前
If barter never existed, then how did Christopher Columbus and his many successors through out ages trade with natives in America or Indonesia? They definitely weren&#x27;t using IOUs.<p>there&#x27;s already very good rebuttal to David Graeber claims by Robert P. Murphy [1]: &quot;Finally, we have actual case studies of communities developing money prices from scratch: namely, prisoners who end up using cigarettes as the common medium of exchange. The classic work here is Radford&#x27;s 1945 article, &quot;The Economic Organization of a P.O.W. Camp.&quot; There is nothing in Radford&#x27;s account that conflicts with the standard economists&#x27; story about the origin of money. The prisoners certainly weren&#x27;t giving each other things from their Red Cross kits as gifts or as loans. No, they first were trading (in a state of direct exchange) and cigarettes quickly became the money in their community for all of the reasons that economists typically cite.<p>And to reinforce the point we made earlier, Radford explains that the prices (quoted in cigarettes) of various items were posted on a board. If Graeber and his colleagues stumbled upon the ruins of this P.O.W. camp, they would presumably conclude that there was never a preexisting state of barter, because they only found boards listing prices quoted in terms of cigarettes. There were no boards listing the thousands of pairwise permutations of direct-exchange ratios, and so clearly the Mengerian story must have been wrong — so would go the erroneous reasoning of Graeber.&quot;<p>[1] <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;mises.org&#x2F;library&#x2F;have-anthropologists-overturned-menger" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;mises.org&#x2F;library&#x2F;have-anthropologists-overturned-me...</a>
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