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70% of the Public Finds Piracy Socially Acceptable

195 点作者 hoag大约 14 年前

32 条评论

_delirium大约 14 年前
Three big caveats that the linked article doesn't sufficiently mention:<p>1. The study was restricted to Denmark. It was part of a larger study looking at Danish attitudes towards economic lawbreaking: tax evasion, benefits fraud, copyright infringement, taking home company property, etc.<p>2. The study asked people to rate how acceptable copyright infringement was on a scale from 1 (completely unacceptable) to 10 (completely ok). The 70% figure is everyone who answered <i>anything except 1</i>. But clearly a 2 out of 10 is still not very positive, especially since in context it could simply have meant that someone found it bad, but less bad than e.g. benefits fraud. Only 20% gave an answer &#62;= 7.<p>3. The study specifically asked about copyright infringement for personal, home use.<p>---<p>From the report (rough translation):<p><i>Seven out of ten Danes accept to some extent the copying of music and movies without paying for them. So long, mind you, as it is limited to copying for one's own use.</i><p><i>Thus finds the Rockwool Foundation's study of Danish ethical attitudes in 2010.</i><p><i>In the study, a representative sample of people were asked to respond on a scale of 1 to 10, whether it is ok to pirate music from the internet for personal use. Those who believe that this act is acceptable under no circumstances, corresponding to a 1, total 30%.</i><p><i>The rest, i.e. 70%, accept pirate-copying to some degree. 50% give a rating between 2 and 6. They're probably skeptical in relation to piracy, but they seem not to think that it is totally unacceptable. The rest, around 15-20%, rate 7 or higher. This group mostly or fully accepts piracy.</i><p><i>The views are different however for making money on illegal music downloading. The population has a somewhat stricter view on that. In fact, three out of four respond that it is absolutely unacceptable to retrieve pirated music online and resell it to friends.</i><p><i>The difference between the two forms of lawbreaking is also clear in the average for all responses. Piracy for personal use has an average of 3.8 on the scale, while the score for selling to friends is as low as 1.7.</i>
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InclinedPlane大约 14 年前
As I've pointed out before piracy is a misnomer. Sharing has always been an integral part of the way people are exposed to and consume art. There are even institutions that have been built up to support such things for older media: libraries, used book stores, radio stations, museums. We treasure and value such institutions because they help to preserve and to spread our art and our culture.<p>However, when you take this incredibly vital and ingrained mechanism for spreading appreciation and knowledge of various works of art and you translate it to the limits (or lack thereof) and character of modern communications and storage technologies you get a phenomena which externally is nearly indistinguishable from piracy (at least without further context of individual behavior).<p>To put it lightly this is a very serious problem. Imagine if libraries and museums were as much legal pariahs as speakeasies during prohibition, how would the world be different? And yet increasingly the collision of outmoded legal frameworks (already bent beyond reasonable measure by the corrupting influence of large "intellectual property" institutions such as Disney and Sony) with technological advancement is leading to conflict and strife between ordinary people engaging in traditionally ordinary behavior and governing institutions who see that behavior as a dangerous threat.<p>P.S. Whether sharing in the digital realm is compatible with profit is an equally important question, but the onus is on producers to figure that out (current evidence seems to indicate that it's not such a big problem, given record box office revenue in 2010, for example). It's quite simply infeasible (technologically, legally, socially, and culturally) to demand that people stop sharing because the power of sharing and of stealing are too closely related.
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wazoox大约 14 年前
I've just read this in "Against intellectual monopoly" page 296 ( <a href="http://levine.sscnet.ucla.edu/general/intellectual/againstfinal.htm" rel="nofollow">http://levine.sscnet.ucla.edu/general/intellectual/againstfi...</a> ) :<p><i>Social norms are not a topic in which we are especially expert. Still, it is a relevant topic: property rights are never enforced only by the law-and-order system, or even by costly private monitoring of other people's behavior. Broadly accepted and well functioning property rights systems rest also, one is tempted to write "primarily," on a commonly shared sense of morality.</i><p>Then it quotes another economist, Eric Rasmusen :<p><i>Video rental stores and libraries, of course, reduce originator profits and hurt innovation, but that is a utilitarian concern. What is of more ethical concern is that whenever, for example, someone borrows a book from the public library instead of buying a book, he has deprived the author of the fruits of his labor and participated in reducing the author's power to control his self- expression. Thus, if it is immoral to violate a book's copyright, so too it would seem to be immoral to use public libraries. Libraries are not illegal, but the law's injustice would be no reason for a moral person to do unjust things. The existence of children's sections would be particularly heinous, as encouraging children to steal.</i><p><i>To entirely deter copying would require a norm inflicting a considerable amount of guilt on copiers, since legal enforcement of copying by individuals is so difficult. To partially deter it would be undesirable for two reasons. First, it would generate a large amount of disutility while failing to deter the target misbehavior. Second, it would reduce the effectiveness of guilt in other situations, by pushing so many people over the threshold of being moral reprobates. At the same time, the benefit from deterring copying by individuals, the increased incentive for creation of new products, is relatively small. I thus conclude that people</i> _should_not_feel_guilty_about_copying_.
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kingofspain大约 14 年前
Are the AA's and their equivalents not shooting themselves in the foot? Framing the argument in the way they have done (piracy is KILLING art) might work for a while but sooner or later a thinking person will come to realise that it really doesn't. Home taping didn't kill anything. Of course, if everyone suddenly stopped buying and only used torrents then the system would collapse, but will that happen? If everyone stopped paying taxes the country would collapse too. No country has an army big enough to enforce that.<p>You smoke pot, you're a drug-crazed menaced. Except millions already do, they just keep it quiet (from the law at least). The more you push the drug-crazed menace part, the more anyone will any sense will push back as it's demonstrably untrue.<p>It might work great as a short term strategy and help you get favourable laws passed but I think they might be approaching the end of the line soon.<p>No need to be too sore though, Mickey Mouse has had a better run than virtually anyone in history.
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mistermann大约 14 年前
Something that's always irked me is that the recording industry, and artists themselves, seem to have this notion that every advance in technology should benefit them, despite them often having no effort in the development of these technologies.<p>Secondly, I imagine most everyone here has seen that picture of what its like watching a non-pirated dvd vs a pirated one.....the non-pirated one takes forever to get through all their copyright warnings, movie previews, etc. If they'd show their paying customers a bit more respect they might get some in return.
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arethuza大约 14 年前
Is anyone else sick of the use of the term piracy to try and make copyright infringement sound more threatening?
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reedlaw大约 14 年前
Maybe that's because illegal copying violates no natural law and is in fact allowable under a common understanding of property rights. If I own a hard drive, I can store anything I want on it. Copyright limits that natural property right by saying you can't store certain media or images that have been designated as "copyrighted" on your own property. This idea is foreign to most cultures and nearly all ancient societies.
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natch大约 14 年前
I tried very hard to pay Oscars.com this year to get a stream of the Academy Awards event. They would not take my money. I tried three different browsers and two different credit cards. No go.<p>Then later I read that people who did pay the money were duped. They ended up getting not the broadcast stream, but a bunch of bullshit side-angle camera streams, not one of which was the broadcast. This after a build-up that strongly suggested (pretty much promised, the way I read it) that this was the ticket to watching the Oscars online.<p>This isn't the first time crap like this has happened. People get burned, and they learn.
petercooper大约 14 年前
The term 'socially acceptable' makes the conclusion hard to pin down.<p><i>I'd</i> say piracy is 'socially acceptable' - in the sense that not many people would bat an eyelid if you said you'd downloaded one of the latest movies illegally. But that doesn't mean I think it's <i>right</i> or that people <i>should</i> do it - it's just an observation on what seems to be "socially acceptable." What is socially acceptable does not typically match up with what <i>I</i> believe to be right.
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funthree大约 14 年前
What happens when 70% of people are okay with something, in a country ruled by the people?
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ahrens大约 14 年前
At first I saw the source (torrentfreak) and thought it would be a survey of their users... But it actually seems like it is a viably study with a good spread of the subjects. I am actually not that surprised. First of all, it's a Danish study. As I am myself living in the south of Sweden, I know that we and the danish have similar views, and that piracy is pretty well accepted here.<p>Even more interesting, would be a survey within a bigger geographical spread. Is there differences within Europe? What about the rest of the world? Are the opinions similar world wide? I would also appreciate a more detailed view into the selection of the group that answered.<p>The most interesting thing about the article is that it is spun very heavily in the direction of piracy... The actual answers about piracy for private use, is that less than 20% accept piracy, slightly over 30% not accepting it. The rest have answered that they are sceptical to piracy for personal use.<p>Accept is 7-10 on a scale from 1-10, sceptical is 2-6 and don't accept is 1 on the same scale. All from the linked report in Danish.
saw-lau大约 14 年前
Sometimes I feel I'm the only person left in the world who a) still buys media; b) doesn't mind doing it; c) thinks it's wrong to pirate things; and d) doesn't consider it my right to be able to consume any media I want, and the only reason I'm not doing it is because it's priced too high - IMHO, DVDs, CDs, etc. are luxury goods.<p>Still, I realise I'm in the minority here - the 70% figure definitely doesn't surprise me. Just, for some reason, makes me a little sad.
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Bvalmont大约 14 年前
Everyone is copying media. _EVERYONE_. How can it NOT be socially acceptable ?<p>The other 30% just doesn't realize that lending a game or buying a game and selling it after you've finished it is exactly the same thing as what an internet pirate is doing.
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WorkingDead大约 14 年前
If copyright laws were reasonable then people would not find it acceptable to break them.
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cabalamat大约 14 年前
Piracy is socially acceptable, but politicians are passing ever more draconian laws in a futile attempt to prop up the music industry's obsolete business model.<p>If you want to stop this, and live in Scotland, you can vote for the Pirate Party this May. I'm one of their candidates.
robryan大约 14 年前
Interesting thought, if piracy did manage to put a big dent into say the profitability of books, would we then see a lot more projects popping up on sites like kickstarter which would probably be very popular given the diminished choice in the market for readers.
kgtm大约 14 年前
Socially acceptable or not, anti-piracy advocates fail to realize that if i am pirating something, i had no intention to buy it. They really, really fail to see this. You can inflate the amount of money you are losing because of me all you want, the reality remains.<p>And it is this childish obsession that tickles my pirate nerves and makes me pirate even stuff i would gladly pay for. Because the industry is dishonest and thinks i sit on the far left of the IQ bell curve. They are lying in my face, and they know it. They don't deserve my money.<p>Go Minecraft.
slavak大约 14 年前
This reminds me of a quote from Penny Arcade[1]:<p>'I mentioned to Gabe that the LendMe feature didn't extend to all books, and he was surprised to learn this, as "lending" a book digitally removes it from your device. It is, in many ways, like lending a person a real book. I suggested to him that this was precisely what they didn't like - you have to warp your mind to perceive it, to understand why a publisher of books would hate the book as a concept, but there you have it. They don't like that books are immutable, transferable objects whose payload never degrades. A digital "book" - caged on a device, licensed, not purchased - is the sort of thing that greases their mandibles with digestive enzymes.<p>Imagine what these people must think of libraries.'<p>The fact is that, scare-mongering aside, piracy doesn't seem to have nearly as big an impact on profits as the large content creators would have us believe. What worries me more is that they seem to be leveraging this fear campaign to chip away at the basic concept of "ownership," pushing for a world where products are "licensed" rather than "bought." This scares me because, being rather old-fashioned, I enjoy the concept of buying a book, rather than licensing the words in that book for reading.<p>[1]<a href="http://www.penny-arcade.com/2009/12/16/" rel="nofollow">http://www.penny-arcade.com/2009/12/16/</a>
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spacemanaki大约 14 年前
This was a Danish study, does anyone know the size of their sample? Did it include other Europeans, anyone from North America, Asia? I would imagine it would make a bit of a difference in the results, and would be interesting to compare.
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njharman大约 14 年前
"best bet is probably to focus on lowering the incentives for people to pirate"<p>No. It's very hard to not get people to do something and esp to stop doing something they currently are and tripple esp to do either without some replacement. As this "study" demonstrated and should be common sense.<p>Instead they need to incentivize legal downloads / legal media consumption.<p>Of course, that's extremely hard cause they literally add no value. They actually have a huge anti-value hill to climb just to reach parity with downloading. Their middle-man business model is broke and requires ever more bizarre/ridiculous laws to keep it shored up.
bena大约 14 年前
I hope this highlights the fallacy of using consensus to determine what is ethical:<p>"70% of the public finds rape socially acceptable"<p>Would we be having the same conversation?
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sigzero大约 14 年前
Really? Almost none of my friends finds it acceptable. Maybe they are skewing the data to support their position. That never happens though.
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kstenerud大约 14 年前
Wow... I didn't expect these sorts of tabloid headers to occur on Hacker News. That's usually a Reddit thing.<p>Shouldn't Hacker News be a cut above, where people first read and understand an article, and then post it to HN with a succinct, relevant, and most importantly TRUTHFUL title?
fields大约 14 年前
Did Apple keep the other 30%?
s00pcan大约 14 年前
I really doubt that software piracy would be illegal if put to a public vote.
hernan7大约 14 年前
It's not surprising that piracy is becoming more acceptable, since for much of the world the opposite of "piracy" is "giving money to the US".<p>(Independently of how much the numbers in this particular poll were manipulated.)
iterationx大约 14 年前
How do you do a poll? I'd be more interested in:<p>X% of HN finds piracy acceptable
rick888大约 14 年前
The taxes are so high in Denmark, I'm not surprised. Most people don't have that much money left over to spend on things like music and movies.
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saturn大约 14 年前
Only 70%? In my social circle it would be 100%, and has been for years. Ironically I still spend more on media than anyone else I know, piracy or no ..
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libpcap大约 14 年前
I find it acceptable. eMule, PeerBlock, and verycd.com have always been my friends.
smogzer大约 14 年前
piracy is the opiate of the youth.
ancymon大约 14 年前
I hope it won't discourage people to become sailors…