IETF Response to “LS on New IP, Shaping Future Network”

124 点作者 polymorph1sm大约 5 年前

14 条评论

eqvinox大约 5 年前

For the uninitiated, there's a bit of a culture clash going on there in the background - not between the IETF and the ITU but rather between the Western groups that have brought up the internet and Chinese groups that are joining the tables now.The IETF, ITU, IEEE and similar groups have their "social etiquette" and lots of unspoken agreements that people learn when starting to interact there, but the way these things work is not exactly culturally neutral.This isn't as much of an IETF shutdown of the ITU, rather an IETF shutdown of a group of Chinese people and companies. The ITU isn't blind to understanding that the Internet works thanks to the open IETF processes, but the ITU also has its procedures, and that's how you get these proposals.If you want to look at similar occurences inside the IETF, there's for example TTZ: <a href="https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/rfc8099/" rel="nofollow">https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/rfc8099/</a>NB: this isn't the Chinese being "stupid" or anything - it's an impedance mismatch in culture. It needs to be fixed by all involved. (The particular "LS on New IP" proposal is obviously stupid, but - such proposals exist at, say, Cisco, too. They just don't make it out of there. That's the cultural difference.)

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jimmySixDOF大约 5 年前

I don’t see anything out of the ordinary here at all. Standard bodies have, and will always revolve around the friction of interested parties. I watched Cisco and Juniper fight tooth and nail over various MPLS rfc’s for years. Everyone and their mother wants to replace ICANN. How about 110v vs. 220v ??? Nothing is new here and to magnify this story out of proportion and work it into some greater US/China decoupling framework is not useful unless you support that agenda to begin with. IPv6 was agreed in 1998 and it took 20 years with many competing proposals to get anywhere. People have been trying to improve the internet according to their interpretation since there were bits in wires and this story is just another run of the mill standards body workgroup tug of war that happens 100x everyday in ISO/IEEE/IETF/Etc…

jlgaddis大约 5 年前

For those wondering that this is all about, refer to "LS on New IP, Shaping Future Network" [0] (and the attachments listed there):---> The September 23-27, 2019 meeting of the ITU-T Telecommunications Standardization Advisory Group (TSAG) considered a tutorial and contribution presentation on “New IP, Shaping Future Network” proposing to “analyse the current challenges and provide a development path for the future network for the next decade”.> It was noted that the activities proposed could be related to the current work of several Study Groups across ITU-T.> Please find attached the referenced contribution and tutorial for your review, and comment back to TSAG for its consideration ahead of WTSA-20.---The "tutorial" [1] (PPTX) is, well, "interesting"; to pique your interest, it includes such terms as "space-terrestrial network", "multi-level verification filtering system", "holographic communication", "multi-semantic addressing", and, of course, "blockchain"!---[0]: <a href="https://datatracker.ietf.org/liaison/1653/" rel="nofollow">https://datatracker.ietf.org/liaison/1653/</a>[1]: <a href="https://www.ietf.org/lib/dt/documents/LIAISON/liaison-2019-09-30-itu-t-tsag-ietf-iab-ls-on-new-ip-shaping-future-network-attachment-3.pptx" rel="nofollow">https://www.ietf.org/lib/dt/documents/LIAISON/liaison-2019-0...</a>

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amacbride大约 5 年前

This is a piece of art: the most polite and well-researched STFU I have ever seen.A gem: “We also note that any real-time systems requiring sub-millisecond latency inevitably have limited scope because of the constraints of the speed of light.”

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chx大约 5 年前

To understand better what's going on, you need to check <a href="https://www.state.gov/wp-content/uploads/2020/02/USCIB-508.pdf" rel="nofollow">https://www.state.gov/wp-content/uploads/2020/02/USCIB-508.p...</a> and <a href="https://www.ietf.org/lib/dt/documents/LIAISON/liaison-2019-09-30-itu-t-tsag-ietf-iab-ls-on-new-ip-shaping-future-network-attachment-2.docx" rel="nofollow">https://www.ietf.org/lib/dt/documents/LIAISON/liaison-2019-0...</a> and then you will understand what's this about: China wants to abuse the ITU-T to design a new Internet.> Source: Huawei Technologies Co. Ltd. (China), China Mobile Communications Corporation, China Unicom, Ministry of Industry and Information Technology (MIIT)> Title: “New IP, Shaping Future Network”: Propose to initiate the discussion of strategy transformation for ITU-TThe US Council For International Business answers:> In recent years, however, the T-Sector’s workstream has expanded into areas in which we do not believe the ITU has the expertise or mandate> In general, we urge the U.S. Government to [...] advocate against Resolutions that would [...] broaden the scope of the ITU’s consideration of such technologies into domains such as ethics, R&D, and/or human rights.;Reading the spin at <a href="https://www.lightwaveonline.com/optical-tech/article/16648964/itu-opens-new-channels-of-communication" rel="nofollow">https://www.lightwaveonline.com/optical-tech/article/1664896...</a> I am not sure how far fetched would it be to say that China is bribing the ITU Telecommunication Standardization Advisory Group so eventually it can shake off the US yoke on such standards. Because this spiel basically casts the US in bad light and very diligently omits even the mention of China. As <a href="https://link.springer.com/chapter/10.1007/978-3-030-14540-8_5" rel="nofollow">https://link.springer.com/chapter/10.1007/978-3-030-14540-8_...</a> mentions "according to many observers, economic globalisation and the liberalisation of telecoms/internet policy have remade the world in the image of the United States" although this paper argues against the hegemonic U.S. control of the internet, there can be little doubt China would love to strip away that control be it hegemonic or not.

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est大约 5 年前

ITU has been china's puppet for years. Fenghuo(Fiberhome) start this Y.2770 crap named "Requirements for Deep Packet Inspection in Next Generation Networks" back in 2012.<a href="http://news.cnet.com/8301-13578_3-57557347-38/u.n-summit-votes-to-support-internet-eavesdropping/" rel="nofollow">http://news.cnet.com/8301-13578_3-57557347-38/u.n-summit-vot...</a>> Because Y.2770 is confidential, many details remain opaque. But a document (PDF) posted by a Korean standards body describes how network operators will be able to identify "embedded digital watermarks in MP3 data," discover "copyright protected audio content," find "Jabber messages with Spanish text," or "identify uploading BitTorrent users." Jabber is also known as XMPP, an instant messaging protocol.

misrab大约 5 年前

Good (paywalled, unfortunately) article on China using this as a way to move the infrastructure to depend on Huawei-owned patents so they can cash in on that work.<a href="https://www.ft.com/content/ba94c2bc-6e27-11ea-9bca-bf503995cd6f" rel="nofollow">https://www.ft.com/content/ba94c2bc-6e27-11ea-9bca-bf503995c...</a>

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nirui大约 5 年前

Did anybody here actually know the detail about the "New IP" protocol? How it works?I can't read the pay-walled ft.com article, but I been hearing people say "kill-switch" on the topic. If there will be a "kill-switch" builtin in the protocol, does that means the "New network" will be more centralized and thus unstable and bad?I think if the goal is to connect more devices, why not build a completely decentralized P2P network that is cheap, easy to maintain, and user-friendly?

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TanjB大约 5 年前

Some of the issues in the original paper are real (except the hologram where they have transformed marketing hype for stereo images into a real expectation of transmitting holograms). Pretty much all of them are capable of being implemented by tunneling through specialized transports, without needing to replace IPv6. After all, that is the "inter" in internets - you are already free to have specialized subnets. Cray implements low latency transport for IP in their supercomputers. You can use a VPN to anonymize your traffic, including transforming the addressing. And so on. If you step through the original presentation, everything is something you are free to implement and make available via IP ports as a subnet.

hyperman1大约 5 年前

Afaik, the ITU already tried to design a network stack, OSI. And we are very lucky the world got TCP/IP instead of that monstrosity.

kitteh大约 5 年前

We can't even get IPv6 everywhere after several decades. We'll be dead before this is a thing (and it won't be).

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grandinj大约 5 年前

The telecoms companies are still upset that they lost control of the protocols when IP became ascendant. The last time they tried to take back control was around 2006 when they came out with the ISO stack, a very awkward clone of TCP/IP. Speaking as someone who had to work with ITU standards like X.25 and X.400, I'd rather chew my own toes off then work with anything they come up with.

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PaulHoule大约 5 年前

Great, we'll be running IPv17 by 2055...

drummer大约 5 年前

New IP makes me think of New Speak from Orwell's 1984.