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The Great Asshole Fallacy

167 点作者 shawndumas将近 5 年前

33 条评论

heymijo将近 5 年前
Some of this thread is conflating being an asshole (subjective) with being abusive. Jordan was abusive and thought that was the way to get the best out of those around him.<p>So it&#x27;s worth remembering that The Last Dance wasn&#x27;t Jordan&#x27;s last time in the NBA.<p>MJ came out of retirement to play for the Wizards. Acted just as he did when he was Air Jordan with the Bulls, but could no longer back up his abusive behavior with his play [0]. Instead of elevating the Wizards, Jordan being an asshole now hurt the team in a number of different ways.<p>A person may be deemed an asshole for having high standards. They don&#x27;t have to be abusive to hold those high standards though.<p>Ed Catmull and Pixar have high standards but are not abusive in the mold of Jordan or Jobs [1]. Kim Scott wrote an entire book, Radical Candor, about how to demand excellence without being abusive [2].<p>[0] <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;slate.com&#x2F;culture&#x2F;2020&#x2F;05&#x2F;the-last-dance-michael-jordan-bulls-wizards.html" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;slate.com&#x2F;culture&#x2F;2020&#x2F;05&#x2F;the-last-dance-michael-jor...</a> [1] <a href="http:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.bugaj.com&#x2F;blog&#x2F;2014&#x2F;9&#x2F;14&#x2F;you-sir-are-no-ed-catmull" rel="nofollow">http:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.bugaj.com&#x2F;blog&#x2F;2014&#x2F;9&#x2F;14&#x2F;you-sir-are-no-ed-catmul...</a> [2] <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.radicalcandor.com&#x2F;" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.radicalcandor.com&#x2F;</a>
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subsubzero将近 5 年前
Contrast Jordan&#x27;s greatness and being an asshole with Lebron James&#x27;s greatness and being a nice guy. Sure Lebron has not won as many championships as Jordan (Lebron&#x27;s 3 to Jordan&#x27;s 6) but he is an atypical pro athlete in that he wants to see his teammates score vs. himself score [1] . Also Lebron has never gotten in a fight with his own teammates like Jordan did twice, or maybe more? Jordan also had the benefit of Scottie Pippen who is a all-pro&#x2F;50 greatest player [2] and far exceeded the skill of any of Lebron James teammates(Dwayne Wade prb being the closest to Pippen.) Sure Lebron is demanding and has extremely high standards, but there are different ways to influence greatness from your teammates other than being an extreme asshole.<p>[1] - <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.cbssports.com&#x2F;nba&#x2F;news&#x2F;lebron-james-says-he-and-michael-jordan-wouldve-been-ideal-teammates-my-assets-work-perfectly-with-mike&#x2F;" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.cbssports.com&#x2F;nba&#x2F;news&#x2F;lebron-james-says-he-and-...</a> [2] - <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.nba.com&#x2F;history&#x2F;nba-at-50&#x2F;top-50-players" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.nba.com&#x2F;history&#x2F;nba-at-50&#x2F;top-50-players</a>
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croon将近 5 年前
Excellence awards you the choice of being an asshole.<p>It also allows you to be revisionist in excusing you being an asshole as necessary in retrospect, even if it wasn&#x27;t.<p>Some people will be assholes if allowed to, but I don&#x27;t think it&#x27;s (positively) correlated with success.<p>I imagine few people work better for&#x2F;with an asshole, and if someone excellent&#x2F;smart&#x2F;1000x developer is pleasant to work with (but perhaps assertive) the results are probably even better.
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mabbo将近 5 年前
I think it&#x27;s reverse causality.<p>If you&#x27;re incredibly talented and have enormous success for most of your life then you probably have gotten away with being an asshole time and time again. What are you going to do, fire Michael Jordan because he&#x27;s mean? You&#x27;re going to kick Ellen off your TV channel because she&#x27;s rude to her people? Over time they get reinforcement that being an asshole is acceptable for them. And it&#x27;s so convenient to be a jerk.<p>Later on when someone asks about it, well, that was my secret to success of course. You have to be an asshole to get ahead. To heck with that!<p>Successful people being assholes is a sign of their weakness, not their strength.
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nogabebop23将近 5 年前
Everyone focuses on Jordan but Jerry Krause is the one who makes the best case for being an asshole leading to great success.<p>Many people seem to interpret being an asshole as causal for success, but they&#x27;re not even corelated. Michael Jordan may or may not be an asshole depending on when and who interacted with him, but he demanded the same absolute perfection from others that he did of himself. The problem was no one was as good as him so he essentially asked for more than they could ever deliver, leading to him taking it all on his shoulders. This inevitably lead to tensions with the &quot;second tier&quot; stars on the team like Pipen and Grant who likely felt they could handle both the burden and benefit of the spotlight.<p>If there&#x27;s a lesson here it&#x27;s likely more on delegation and success of the team over individuals. Phil Jackson gets discounted as they guy who sat and watched Jordan do all the work, but he&#x27;s won more NBA titles than anyone on the Bulls dream squad. He is someone who definitely does not present as an asshole.
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jpwright将近 5 年前
I&#x27;d add that lessons from sports leadership don&#x27;t always apply in other contexts. Sports at the highest levels require extreme competitiveness and aggression. A Jordan-style asshole leader might succeed by motivating the development of those traits in their teammates, but those same traits are probably toxic and unhelpful in other environments.
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TrackerFF将近 5 年前
If anyone wants to see how asshole management works in reality, just visit any random retail store, franchise or independent. Or worse, call centers.<p>These places typically have very limited upward mobility, and their only requirement for future operational (i.e, not corporate) &quot;leaders&quot; would be results from working at the ground floor.<p>This means that they tend to hire people that aren&#x27;t necessarily the best leaders, but the best sellers. It&#x27;s basically the Peter Principle in action, but often with only one step up on the ladder.<p>And because these people, or leaders, have very limited training or exposure to good leadership (their old leaders got to the same place, the same way), they perpetuate the same sh!tty anti-leadership practices - which is very much something one could call asshole management. And what&#x27;s more, there&#x27;s often such a extreme level of power asymmetry &#x2F; imbalance, that lower-level workers are completely at the mercy of their middle-managers.<p>It is something you can draw parallels to in sports. You&#x27;re being measured by KPI &#x2F; performance measures, and get more responsibilities the better you perform. Everyone who&#x27;s ever played any competitive team sports knows or has experiences this - some star player(s) that have can rein freely, because they exceed at some important measure (score goals, or whatever) - while rest of their teammates are walking on eggshells.<p>But to tie it all together: The problem is that entities (businesses, sports teams, whatever) become dependent on these stars, even though it could completely destroy morale, and create toxic cultures within.<p>I think that if you identify these following points in some environment, there&#x27;s a great chance you&#x27;ll meet on great asshole bosses &#x2F; leaders<p>1) Great power imbalance between worker and leader.<p>2) Leadership compensation is dependent on worker performance.<p>3) Levels of compensation is driven by a very few measures &#x2F; KPI.<p>4) Upward mobility is squarely tied to your KPI performance (from 3).<p>Basically - if the only way to succeed within is to be a rainmaker, and being a rainmaker makes you the king, then that could easily foster assholes.
TheCowboy将近 5 年前
I&#x27;ve had one boss who was terrible at basically everything, and he actually justified his behavior using Steve Jobs as an example. His company was only successful because he was in the right place at the right time, but the company was failing to maximize its full potential because of him.<p>Would anyone try to claim there is a shortage of asshole managers, owners, or bosses out there? It&#x27;s just a fact that many jerks exist, and a portion will inevitably end up at the top despite this behavior.<p>Would YC have been more successful if it better emphasized seeking out this behavior in founders? If this behavior is critical to success then shouldn&#x27;t we be training people to be jerks?
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Intermernet将近 5 年前
I try very hard not to be an asshole, but I see assholes somehow being respected for being assholes.<p>Is this similar to patio11 saying that charging more for a service makes it easier for people to value the service? Is this an innate property of the way some people think? Can we change our system of values to appreciate value based on non monetary terms, and leadership based on non degrading terms?<p>I don&#x27;t have answers for these questions, but I think they&#x27;re important...
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keeptrying将近 5 年前
Relentlessly upping a teams standards in everything - strategy, execution, effort etc, tires out everyone on that team. But that’s usually what you need to win or succeed in a competitive system.<p>People who push for this will always be called assholes because they force team members to stretch themselves which is never a comfortable proposition.<p>The corollary to this is that to win by not being an asshole, find something that is needed&#x2F;wanted but no one else does or that which you can do 10x better than everyone else. Without competition you won’t need to push you or your team that hard.<p>(The only catch with having no competition, is that, having no competition will slow down the rate at which you can improve or stop all improvement in most people.)
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KKKKkkkk1将近 5 年前
US business culture has two leadership archetypes: The brilliant asshole and the kind uncle who leads by example (think Steve Jobs and Tim Cook). Despite there being <i>two</i> archetypes, asshole culture is endemic in American business. Why is that? My theory is that more often than not, the kind fatherly leader relies on a cadre of assholes to do his job for him. Elsewhere in this thread there is the example of Ed Catmull and John Lasseter that reinforces my impression.
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kelvin0将近 5 年前
Some so called &#x27;assholes&#x27; are in fact really good mirrors and amplifiers of our existing insecurities. Is it fun when someone is able to &#x27;push our buttons&#x27; and make us feel worthless? Rarely. Is it useful to further explore why it made us uncomfortable? Always.<p>I am not preaching that you should tolerate abuse, far from it. But you should be aware of your own dark side and recognize it for what it is.
s17n将近 5 年前
I think the fallacy is to confuse cause and effect. The characteristics necessary to achieve greatness are very likely to also make you an asshole. But, deliberately being an asshole is only going to make you less likely to achieve greatness.
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jariel将近 5 年前
Was he really an a-hole?<p>It&#x27;s hard for many people to fathom different environments, but sports, sometimes startups, the Army for example ... different communication styles.<p>Even mild &#x27;Military Communication&#x27; would make many people uncomfortable, because of the almost total lack of emotional empathy in most scenarios. But - it works, really well. To the point that some people (maybe myself included) feel that we should all learn to be a little more in control of our emotions and less &#x27;needy&#x27; of our peers and managers.<p>When a manager tries too hard with empathy frankly is feels patronizing, like I&#x27;m a child or diva whose ego needs to be managed. I feel that it&#x27;s coddling, and it shouldn&#x27;t be needed with professionals, other than the very occasional kudos and only when warranted.<p>There are instances of Jordan in public life being a &#x27;real jerk&#x27; ... and maybe some instances of him doing that on the court - but this is not unreasonable for such a long career.<p>Also, here is a good example: Pippin seemed nice, but then famously refused to go on the court once after he didn&#x27;t like the coach&#x27;s call. Some might argue that this is the absolute height of arrogance and jerkoffness, because it&#x27;s the most self-centered thing possible. I don&#x27;t think Jordan ever did this.<p>I watch junior Hockey players get reamed out by their coaches after the 1st period, and they&#x27;re just utterly calm, it&#x27;s just words to them.<p>We need to contextualize what we consider to be real arrogance from merely more aggressive communication or communication that is assertive and lacking in emotional empathy.<p>After watching the special, I&#x27;m not so sure if Jordan was an asshole. Obviously self-centered, and assertive, but that&#x27;s not being an asshole. He was also one part of a unit of other types of characters that seemed to blend.
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jhwang5将近 5 年前
In this thread. Bunch of people who haven&#x27;t won anything criticizing the methods of the greatest winner.
jacknews将近 5 年前
This seems quite wishy-washy to me.<p>Excellence and leadership requires strength, and determination, no doubt about it.<p>But do you then ruthlessly impose those values on everyone else, or help them get there?<p>To me, that&#x27;s the difference between a leader and an ahole.
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switch11将近 5 年前
Felix Dennis in his book has a quote related to committing to becoming rich<p>The people who suffer most are the ones closest to you<p>It&#x27;s meant for family and friends<p>It also applies to an extent to your work colleagues<p>If you pursue excellence, people around you are going to get pulled along with you<p>Some of them will think you are a dick or a jerk or an asshole<p><i></i><i></i><i></i><p>You can&#x27;t be nice to everyone<p>Even if you are, a fraction of people will still think you&#x27;re a dick<p><i></i><i></i><i></i><i></i><i></i><i></i><p>Now take that same person and give them success<p>People suddenly have TWO reasons to think they are a dick<p>A) They are more focused than you<p>B) They are more successful than you<p><i></i><i></i><i></i><i></i><i></i><i></i><i></i><i></i><i></i><i></i>*<p>I don&#x27;t ever see people complaining about someone they are more successful than, but almost always about people who did better than them
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jerf将近 5 年前
I think this is the mechanism: Let us hypothesize the nicest possible person who is willing to do what it takes to be great. Unfailingly polite. Gracious with the money. Helps out those less fortunate as much as is possible under the constraints of doing what it takes to be great. An inspiration and a role model. By definition, by any sensible definition of the term, if you knew this person well you would agree they are as far from an asshole as it is possible to be.<p>There is a non-zero set of people in this person&#x27;s life who will necessarily decide this person is an asshole anyhow. In the early days, you invite this person to social events, and they decline because they&#x27;re practicing. Maybe someone&#x27;s even crushing on this person and consistently asks them out and consistently gets declined. However polite they are in declining, there&#x27;s one person who is going to decide they&#x27;re an asshole. Whoever it is in second place on the team, who under normal circumstances would talented enough to be the star player on the team but is getting shown up by the fact they&#x27;re on a team with Michael freakin&#x27; Jordan... they&#x27;re likely to harbor opinions of assholery, because if we humans are good at anything, it&#x27;s rationalizing our pre-existing beliefs and finding reasons why we&#x27;re right.<p>When professional and financial success is obtained in later years, people who want a piece of it but are denied will decide this person is an asshole. A coach who tries to control this person to take credit for their fame but is rebuffed because what the coach is saying to do is not what it takes to be great will decide this guy is an asshole. The reporter who tries to weasel their way in to hitch themselves to this rising star and asks for interviews but gets rebuffed because it&#x27;s not what is necessary to become great may do a hit piece around convincing everyone they&#x27;re an asshole.<p>And so forth and so on.<p>On the Internet, if you simply express a strong opinion, of any kind, no matter how politely, some subset of people will take as proof you&#x27;re an asshole. If someone posts disagreement and you decline to instantly and totally agree with that person, a somewhat larger group of people will decide you&#x27;re an asshole.<p>The upshot is that there&#x27;s two different kinds of assholery; actually being a jerk, in as objective a sense as possible, and people who will decide you&#x27;re being an asshole because you&#x27;ve done things that are (again as objectively as possible) not assholery, but because you are resisting doing what they want or some other thing that is really entirely on them.<p>From where we sit at a distance, it is often difficult to borderline impossible to tell which is which, or to tell the difference between a genuinely nice guy and someone who got advised to hire a PR firm.
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jtsuken将近 5 年前
This is a very anti-postmodernist post, where neither the author nor the commenters realise that their most insightful thoughts on the topic are literal quotes from &quot;Crime and Punishment&quot;.
ak39将近 5 年前
I think the writer is correct: there is a meme out there that in order to be great, a leader, a trailblazer etc you have to become inevitably the arsehole. So much so, that arseholism is not just tolerated but celebrated.<p>I wonder why the author did not feel persuaded to mention our current poster child of arseholism, the quintessential kind: Donald Trump.<p>Here&#x27;s a good video essay on the same subject by a filmmaker, Max Joseph: <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.youtube.com&#x2F;watch?v=gRRvjZ_XNog" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.youtube.com&#x2F;watch?v=gRRvjZ_XNog</a>
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JabavuAdams将近 5 年前
Fair enough, but I think it misses the more important point. If we cancel all the assholes, or demand that they be well-rounded people, we will lose some of our highest performers.<p>Most assholes are not great. Many greats are not assholes. Some of the greatest were assholes.
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Sophistifunk将近 5 年前
Jobs wasn&#x27;t great at what he did because he was an asshole, it&#x27;s just he was allowed to be an asshole because he was great at what he did. A lot of people seem to have these things around the wrong way.
tech-historian将近 5 年前
It boils down to a real challenge in leadership. How to be demanding without being demeaning? For some, this is straightforward, but for others, it&#x27;s nearly impossible.
shadowgovt将近 5 年前
There&#x27;s a lot to be said of Antoine de Saint-Exupéry&#x27;s quote about ships and the love of the sea. Great leaders can find a way to communicate that. It can be a challenge finding the balance between being driven (and driving a team) and being an asshole; you have to remember that people can&#x27;t love the work if they&#x27;re starved for something else.<p>(For my money, personally, the highest praise I can hear of a team leader is &quot;That person doesn&#x27;t ask more of the team than they demand of themselves, but also, be warned that person does not sleep.&quot;)
joe_the_user将近 5 年前
Random website demands Google or Facebook sign-in?<p>Goes with the topic I suppose...
brudgers将近 5 年前
Pablo Picasso was never called an asshole...or so I’ve heard.
motohagiography将近 5 年前
Worth noting this is written by a very successful venture capitalist, with a firm that is the product of one of the fastest growing companies ever. It&#x27;s not a reason to believe him one way or another, but when he writes, &quot;That’s what i think of when I think of leadership. Someone who is malleable enough to both know and to react to the different needs of different people on their team,&quot; I&#x27;d posit it&#x27;s pretty clear he&#x27;s talking his own book.<p>I do not know the author, and taking shots at him on an internet forum is small, but as a general principle, Jeffery Pfeffer talks about this retroactive continuity of virtue in success stories in his books. Everyone wants to think their luck made them good. Riding growth up to the top is a different set of skills than setting off the chain reaction that creates the energy behind it. In fact, malleability is precisely what you need to ride growth, but I&#x27;d argue you need a force of will to be the one to create it. That carries asshole-risk.<p>The stories successful people tell about how they became successful are almost exclusively about how virtuous they were, and how their path was noble. A critical view of success and its factors is very much the &quot;loser&#x27;s&quot; view, as telling it from outside means you don&#x27;t have it, but it still has some value because the one told from inside is not the one that will get you there. They aren&#x27;t in the business of building (ungated) ladders behind them. The story successful people don&#x27;t tell is the one where they leveraged someones trust, scandalizing, discrediting, and isolating someone who lacked their mendacity, or put people who trusted them at more personal risk than they may have perceived.<p>Nobody likes an asshole, and it&#x27;s a good thing to build things that select against them, but the definition has to be better than what the losers just call the person they lose to, or as a foil for back-fitting a story of skill and virtue onto some really grisly work and luck.<p>It&#x27;s like Ray Dalio saying he&#x27;s a billionaire because of transcendental meditation. If that sentence causes your middle finger to involuntarily leap into the air, you can appreciate how these other auto-hagiographies are received.<p>Anyway, not to take pot shots from the cheap seats, but it&#x27;s better to be suspicious of free advice that tells you to be nice. Not because being nice is wrong, but because when someone gives it to you free, it is probably worth more to them than you.
loudtieblahblah将近 5 年前
Assholes shake up hive minds<p>Hive minds create cohesion and work better as teams..but they squash excellence.<p>Both are needed
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redis_mlc将近 5 年前
I read the article and the HN posts, but they all miss the point, calling it the &quot;Great Asshole Fallacy&quot; is incorrect.<p>One of Jordan&#x27;s coaches said in an interview, &quot;[What most people don&#x27;t understand about Jordan is that he isn&#x27;t there to play, he&#x27;s there to win.]&quot;<p>Meaning the game of basketball wasn&#x27;t important, winning was important.<p>Tiger Woods said the same thing in an interview, &quot;if I can&#x27;t win, I won&#x27;t play,&#x27; he said. &#x27;I simply couldn&#x27;t stand it and I will walk away when I can no longer play at the highest level.&quot;<p>Winners are there to win, not to enjoy the game. So in that respect they have no problem acting or being perceived as assholes, since winning is all that matters.<p>If you pay attention to the media, you&#x27;ll see that most champions don&#x27;t just play and hope to excel, they are driven to win, regardless of their sport. Often they&#x27;ll say, &quot;I wanted to go out at the top.&quot;<p>(I&#x27;ll let the hard-core sports fans research the Jordan quote and fill in the verbatim version.)<p><a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.dailymail.co.uk&#x2F;sport&#x2F;golf&#x2F;article-1097074&#x2F;If-I-8217-t-win-I-won-8217-t-play-says-Woods-superstar-eyes-New-Years-comeback.html" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.dailymail.co.uk&#x2F;sport&#x2F;golf&#x2F;article-1097074&#x2F;If-I-...</a>
sub7将近 5 年前
This idiot has clearly never built anything in his life.<p>Blogger -&gt; VC blogger.
classified将近 5 年前
Yikes, it&#x27;s a Medium site, but disguised. Had I known that, I would not have clicked that link. With a little bit of imagination that could be interpreted as a practical demonstration of assholery.
fleddr将近 5 年前
Those that do try to apply this asshole logic outside this highly specific context, make 2 very painful mistakes.<p>One, whatever you do, isn&#x27;t memorable, and has no glory. 90s Chicago Bulls took the world by storm. Jordan is perceived as one of the greatest athletes ever. Him being that asshole may very well have secured multiple championships. Which is a big thing, something millions of people care about and still talk about decades later.<p>Not so much for your soulless corp few even know exists at all. Nobody cares about your performance but yourself. There is no glory to pushing people to the very edge, therefore it&#x27;s not worth it or justifiable. In business, people shouldn&#x27;t be expected to deliver super human effort or endure this behavior.<p>The situations just don&#x27;t compare.<p>Two, you&#x27;re not Jordan. And not Jobs. Nor will you become one by being an asshole. A handful of people have the character, vision and skill to touch, change and inspire the world, and you&#x27;re not it. Not even close.
alexashka将近 5 年前
Another article from someone who hasn&#x27;t accomplished anything, talking about how he&#x2F;she is <i>worried</i> that somebody is going to <i>maybe</i> misinterpret <i>something</i> someone else said...<p>Quality content folks.<p>There is no fallacy - if you want to work as much as Jordan or Steve Jobs did, you&#x27;ve gotta be a lunatic to begin with. Why would you expect a lunatic to <i>not</i> be eccentric, in most cases?<p>One of the ways a lunatic can be eccentric is being an asshole - media <i>loves</i> to blow them out of proportion. Another way a lunatic can be eccentric is being extra quiet and extra nice aka Steve Wozniak. It&#x27;s hard to write blog posts and get clicks about how nice Steve Wozniak is, people love drama far more than they love <i>nice</i>.<p>So what do we have, writers <i>creating</i> a myth of these tyrants where in reality they are just eccentric most of the time, and then other pathetic writers <i>writing about</i> what another set of writers has created.<p>Pathetic - journalists are largely such low life, talentless scum, oh well, at least they&#x27;re <i>nice</i>, oh wait, or are they, with all the misquotes and poorly researched trash they publish on a daily basis, is that <i>nice</i>?