The Tyranny of the Extroverts

The author doesn't know the difference between introverts and extroverts, so this article falls completely flat. The difference is really simple:<p>* Introverts get tired when interacting with people and recharge their energy when they're alone<p>* Extroverts get tired by being alone and recharge their energy when they're with people<p>Extroversion and introversion doesn't say anyone about how shy or social people are. There are a lot of introverts with great social skills and a lot of extroverts with good inward skills.<p>That being said - it's obviously much more normal to be a shy introvert than it is to be a shy extrovert. It does happen though.<p>I'm an introvert and used to be a really shy guy with low social skills. In the last years however I gained a lot of confidence and social intelligence. Have I become more extroverted? Nope, I've just improved my social skills drastically.<p>The belief that how social people are is an unchangeable genetical trait is downright dangerous. Unfortunately a lot of people are misled into believing that it's unchangeable. It's just a skill like any other skill, it can definitely be learned!

"And I hope we value and develop other skills, like independence, focus, persistence, deep thought and careful reflection, which might not be as natural for extroverts."<p>Amen. Extroverts ruined my K12 education, how about yours? Now they're busy doing the same to the political system, entertainment, etc.<p>And what're the introverts doing? Oh, they're off building the next Facebook/LinkedIn to facilitate the extroverts...

Rant.<p>Myers-Briggs is one of the dumbest things in psychology. Psychologists, who generally accept the stupidest theories generally admit it's useless, and Big-5 is much better. It's only popular because it's so value-free - nobody gets offended by any of it's factors (except introversion-extroversion: the only useful one).<p>Introversion-Extroversion is the only factor that is really a big factor. There other MB factors - (Sensing (S) - (N) Intuition, Thinking (T) - (F) Feeling, and Judgment (J) - (P) Perception) are so meaningless nobody even remembers them. The other big 5 factors (Openness to experience, Conscientiousness, Agreeableness, and Neuroticism) are much better descriptors of people. Are you interested in stuff? Openness ++. Do your homework on time? Conscientiousness ++. Say "yes" too much? Agreeableness ++. Crazy? Neuroticism ++. Honesty, intelligence, and empathy could be added; but they are a little prickly to measure. But Big 5 is still fairly descriptive of most people.<p>Personality traits are (roughly speaking) normally distributed. It's stupid to classify people as "extroverts or introverts", as most people are basically just "meh". Sure, there's the geek who never speaks, and the cheerleader, but most people just talk with a few friends, and feel a bit sick when they have to talk to strangers. The dichotomy that's implied by using two classifiers ("extrovert / introvert"), rather than just scoring "extroversion" on a scale of (say) 1-10 is just brain-dead.<p>"Introversion does not describe social discomfort but rather social preference". I like reading books, but in high school I could talk to anyone except a hot girl. Now, I guess I would prefer to read than make "connections", but that doesn't totally disqualify me for having a job that requires a lot of communication. Of course, I'm quite good at jobs that require a bit of thinking, and enjoy them more. So, um, I guess I won't be selling Avon any time soon. My loss, I guess.<p>And who says introverts aren't successful? I would pick Warren Buffet, Bill Gates, Larry Page, Allan Greenspan (yeah, he caused the crisis, but virtually no-one else new better), David Letterman, and quite a few other successful people as un-extroverted people. Possibly Barack Obama, and quite a few other presidents too (but I know next to nothing of US history). Maybe Bob Dylan. Possibly John Lennon. Not Ringo though.<p>Having "social skills" can be important. But not all extroverts have them (think - the bully, Mr. Foot-in-mouth, and the guy who just won't shut up), and most introverts have adequate social skills. Most people do.

&#62; Society rewards extroverts. They get the job, the money, the girl (or boy), and the front page.<p>I'm not entirely sure this is true. A lot of the top inventors, industrialists, writers, and artists in any generation are introverts.<p>What less people realize is that the most accomplished statesmen and politicians are often introverts too.<p>Augustus Cesar led the height of the Roman Empire, Tokugawa Ieyasu unified Japan, Abraham Lincoln crushed the Confederacy and led to modern strong-Federal America, etc, etc. All introverts.<p>Anecdotally, it seems like it's easier for an introvert to learn how deal well with people than it is for an extrovert to learn to enjoy the solitude and meditative periods necessary for serious hardcore expansion.<p>It's probably easier to become moderately popular and get external trappings of success as an extrovert. But if I was trying to massively change the course of history, I'd want the bulk of my top personnel in leadership positions to be introverts.

I am highly skeptical of his assumption that skills like working on a team, communicating with others, and leading others all imply extroversion.<p>Now that I think about it, most of the people I've worked with (as a programmer) have probably been introverts, and excepting one or two, they've all had excellent team and communication skills.<p>I am an introvert (reading HN and programming on a Saturday night, and I have no problem with it!), and I am sympathetic to the idea that extroverts are a problem, but I don't think this article articulates that problem in a particularly convincing way.

The difference between an introvert and an extrovert is two pints of beer.

This doesn't make sense to me. I'm definitely an introvert: shy, lousy at casual conversation, and can happily go for days without talking to anyone. However, I have no problem in my software development job with teamwork, communication or leadership (I was even a manager for many years before deciding to go back to being a senior developer). I can work effectively with others to get things done, taking the initiative when necessary. And, as someone else pointed out, I've seen many extroverts who have poor skills in these areas.

This is a classic misunderstanding of what a introvert is. It does seem to be true that introverts have weaker social skills than extroverts. This is not however, inherent! It is simple a function of practice, and as introverts need alone time to recharge, they are less likely to have practice in social settings. It's a subtle distinction but an important one to make. The article claims that people skills come "naturally" to extroverts, but that's an oversimplification of the underlying issues.<p>Put simply, the difference between introverts and extroverts is how they recharge energy. Imagine a party in a packed apartment. An extrovert can spend hours there and feel refreshed and energized at the end. On the other hand, an introvert will feel tired and drained. But this has nothing to do with how they act at the party. Being shy and awkward doesn't mean you are an introvert! This misunderstanding is fairly pervasive. I'm a huge introvert and I go to parties all the time. I act very outgoing, friendly, and confident. Close friends are in fact quite surprised when they find out I am an introvert at heart. But I could never sustain going to parties twice a week every week because I would get too drained.<p>All of that said, the author does raise some important points about the place of introverts in society. <i>Caring For Your Introvert</i> is absolutely recommended reading: <a href="http://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2003/03/caring-for-your-introvert/2696/" rel="nofollow">http://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2003/03/caring-f...</a>. It touches on some of the issues raised in the article and provides a much better overview of extroversion versus introversion. Previous discussion of this excellent article here: <a href="http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=561311" rel="nofollow">http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=561311</a>. Rands also has a nice article about nerds which does not explicitly touch on introversion. It does however, address many issues introverts typically deal with: <a href="http://www.randsinrepose.com/archives/2007/11/11/the_nerd_handbook.html" rel="nofollow">http://www.randsinrepose.com/archives/2007/11/11/the_nerd_ha...</a>.

The other day, I saw a discussion on reddit entitled something like "What is it that people actually <i>do</i> at parties?" I thumbed through it, not really that interested, but I had just been to a gathering the evening prior and had a small realization while thinking about it.<p>Quite simply, people talk about themselves.<p>There's some skill and filtering involved (you have to <i>do</i> things to have something interesting to say when you talk about yourself, and you don't want to focus the whole conversation on yourself), but the most important part of this epiphany was that I realized that growing up, I was always taught that the best way to be a conversationalist (and the best way to get girls to like you, and the best way to get support for your decisions, and the best way to get important people to listen to you) was to minimize yourself in the conversation and take interest in the other person, asking questions and responding with more questions...<p>and that this advice is sabotage, created by extroverts to make introverts easier to spot so the E's don't have to spend as much time trying to engage us and can just move on. It's like telling someone who has a hard time picking up skiing that snowplowing down the side of the run is just as fun as actually skiing, so they should just stick to that (and incidentally stay the hell out of the way of everyone else).<p>Extroverts naturally ignore this advice (or never see it, because extroverts don't need to seek out advice about how to engage others), and when introverts internalize it they further push themselves into a corner.<p>The most rewarding thing for me in extrovert situations has been figuring out what makes me an interesting person, and talking about it.

The Tyranny of the Extroverts title reminds me of "The Smart Talk Trap" (stanford-online.stanford.edu/apm04csia/docs/SmartTalkTrap.pdf) from the Harvard Business Review which talks of these poisonous extroverts who excel in the language of "No, it wont work" and revels in shooting down ideas to fix something and not coming up with any actual steps to solve the problem. I recommend it if you havent read it already.

This essay is ridiculous on a number of points, but the point that stood out the most to me is below. The author writes:<p>"I shouldn't have to say this, but there is a place in the world for introverts. Show me the ten most innovative minds of the 20th Century and I will show you ten introverts. From Einstein to Wittgenstein, not one of them could carry a conversation if you put handles on it."<p>Apparently Richard Feynman never happened.

I am very introverted. I always have been. The fact is that the unique challenges that programming and web design are suited to introverts. Can I be an A-list actor? No. But I can use the talents I have to make something from nothing. So don't try to change yourself to fit some idea you have of what you aren't. Embrace the personality you have and the talents you're given and make something amazing.

I've noticed that I have the ability to go between introverted and extroverted (regardless of alcohol consumption haha)...<p>When I'm solving problems and piecing stuff together while glued to my computer I definitely get into a zone or mode or whatever, and don't really care for much outside interference. Most of the time it actually annoys me to get interrupted. But it only takes a few minutes away from it (sometimes an hour or two if I've left something unfinished haha) to get into the extroverted, outgoing talkative mode.<p>I've actually noticed a little bit of a curve in how well I communicate. The first few minutes after ending problem solving mode consist of me pausing a bit in my sentences (thinking ahead and seeing the conversation as a whole) and as time goes on I end up speaking very quickly and fluently without much thought at all.<p>Any other developers here transition between intro and extroverted like this?<p>What sucks is that it takes a few minutes for my brain to switch modes... because at work everyone probably just thinks I'm some really quiet, super serious guy.

It's interesting he uses Andrew Wiles as an example. Perhaps FLT would have been proved faster if Wiles had <i>not</i> mostly shut himself away.<p>His achievement was exceptional, yes, but that doesn't necessarily mean that he went about reaching the goal in the optimum way.

Is there any education system in the world that trains kids with social skills?<p>Seems needed due to digital communication technology.

Emotional Strength &#62; Intellectual Intelligence in determining societies winners. You have to convince people that you are entitled to lead, to get them to grant you leadership.

Other than because it's easy, what's the appeal of using stereotypes to create these supposed normative behaviors? Of all the people I've met in my life, most come closer to being balanced than not. We're all extroverted in some situations, and introverted in others. Maybe being divisive makes it easier to swallow the bitter pill of unrealized potential, but it's not productive.

As an introvert, I tend to agree with the author. Introverts generally make up the extreme ends of the population distribution in terms of being "successful", success being defined the way it is generally accepted. On the other hand, extroverts are spread out much more evenly. For example,the CEO of a big corporation might be an introvert, but most of the middle level managers are extroverts. Then there are those introverts who find it difficult to move up in the management hierarchy, for one reason or the other. I believe that those who are exceptions are so in spite of being introverts and not "because" they are introverts.

Well it makes sense. Senior management positions and positions running companies all require one thing.<p>That you can tell other people what to do and that they'll do it.<p>By definition, an introvert is significantly less likely to be able to do this.

I find it interesting that the only people who spend this much time talking about and defending extrovert/introvert are, themselves, introverts.

This is a letter I sent to the author of essay few minutes ago:<p>Hi, As you probably know already, your essay landed on Hacker News main page: <a href="http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2345552" rel="nofollow">http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2345552</a> Also, here you can see comments. Congratulations for that.<p>However, being keenly interested in applied psychology I’d like to point out few things about your essay.<p>First thing that made me worried is that you actually didn’t mention Emotional Intelligence. I’m not sure whether it was so known back then in 2005. You rely on extrovert/introvert factor to categorize people. The same what Jonathan Rauch did.<p>Very latest researches and publications tend to categorize people by low/high Emotional Intelligence (EQ), which is a good choice in my opinion. Note that EQ covers wide range of factors, but generally relates to understanding one’s own and others’ behavior. So this not only applies to dealing with any social interactions, but also to dealing with one’s self.<p>You may now assume that introvert means low EQ and extrovert means high EQ, but it isn’t necessarily true. I’m in one of very top high schools in Poland. And we have an AP Computer Science class, which has a program that is very similar to what is done on University on Algorithmics. Also we have analogical Mathematics class.<p>Obviously, we observe EQ drop when comparing these special classes to others. However we do not observe introverts/extroverts categories. Of course those extroverts – low intelligence guys are quite funny ;) , but that’s not the point. The point is to show that there’s not so much connection between EQ and being extro-/introvert.<p>Now, you are right that introverts are generally ranked lower in “life/people categories”. That happens because emotions plays key role in human brain. They were introduced by evolution to help species survive, but now it turned against us.<p>High EQ people (not all extroverts and not only extroverts, also some introverts) know how to use this to help themselves in many life situations. They know how to negotiate, how to talk people into something, how to have great friendships and fulfilling marriages. In our times EQ became one of the most important factors in life.<p>So I believe we should stop complaining against people treating others worse because these others are introverts. Rather we should improve our EQ to be aware of our own behavior, of what controls us, because this is the way to living our lives better.<p>With equal EQ levels introvert and extrovert will be dealing with life very similarly, they both will be able to find a way in difficult situations. Unfortunately, extrovert will always have an advantage over introvert, e.g. extrovert will have more connections and that as we know is better in business. But it will not be that significant.<p>What I want to point out is that we need to help people improve EQ and choosing people by high EQ levels (observe them in social interactions) is not so surprising from the point of chooser. Fortunately, Emotional Intelligence is not something like “being tall”, which cannot be changed.<p>At last I’d like to thank you for this essay. I’m sure it is going to have positive impact on its readers. When hunting for those EQ guys we sometimes forget that there is also a place for IQ guys. And they are going to find it too. Also, they are in lucky situation, because they have high IQ, which cannot be changed and probably low EQ, which can (easily) be changed. The life would be theirs, only if they did a little to improve Emotional Intelligence.<p>Sincerely, Jakub Malinowski from Poland

"there are problems you can't solve with your mouth open"

The reality rewards action.

I've seen plenty of extroverts who are bad team members.<p>I've seen plenty of introverts who are effective communicators.

"our emphasis on collaborative, active learning tends to encourage it."<p>In my childhood experience, 'collaboration' means that one person does all the work while the others screw around. Since no outside pressure is exerted to ensure that all parties contribute, this just amplifies existing social biases. If you put the 'cheerleader' with the 'nerd' and don't check in to make sure they're both working, all you did was hinder the 'nerd'.

I wonder where he gets his supposed statistics from. Seems like he's basically equating social awkwardness ~ extroversion. Which, as many posters here have pointed out, is plain silly.

If you're good at <i>selling</i> it doesn't matter if you're introvert or extrovert.

Extra-ordinary people like Hitler &#38; Einstein were introverts.

Bill Gates: The revenge of the introvert.