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Apple gave me the Hey treatment back in 2014

384 点作者 firloop将近 5 年前

32 条评论

realtalk_sp将近 5 年前
The fact that Apple is scrubbing text communications and discussing certain sensitive things with developers only over the phone is supremely shady. Deleting old communications is a classic tactic employed by organizations that anticipate lawsuits and associated discovery. It's amazing that they've formulated a comprehensive set of internal business practices directed at sustaining this racket.
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gameswithgo将近 5 年前
Developers really should stage a revolt on both Google and Apple's mobile phone ecosystems. They have ruined computing for users (locked down systems with no ability to tinker) and make it impossible to have any viable business on their platforms, since they have total control over you, can shut you down at any time without recourse, and retroactively change terms. It is part of a larger trend of evolving business world where small players are doomed.
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donttakemyapps将近 5 年前
Throwaway for reasons.<p>I have &gt;10 apps for external clients currently in the App Store that are exactly like Hey (not email clients though), focussed on business+consumer clients, with a login and you have to order outside the store to be able to login. We even reference to that in some of the apps. You can&#x27;t do anything in the app until you pay for a subscription on the repspective site. The most recent one got approved 2 months ago, and some apps are &gt;2 years old and have received regular updates.<p>The difference may be that they do not have the revenue Basecamp has.<p>In the past when an app got refused, we resubmitted without changes and got approved. It&#x27;s a shitshow.
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fossuser将近 5 年前
I know YouTube premium just charges a 30% up charge if you sign up via IAP in iOS.<p>I’m not sure if this is in violation of the rules or not.<p>It is convenient as a user to be able to manage subscriptions via iOS which makes it easy to track and cancel, but 30% seems way too high for this?<p>Forcing IAP while taking a 30% cut seems like rent seeking when [edit: you control the only place users can get apps on your platform]. Extra problematic in the Spotify case where you compete directly and undercut them.<p>I’d prefer a forced IAP requirement where Apple didn’t take a cut (or they just charged some up front fee or something).<p>(Meta: McTossOut, your comments are dead - I’m not sure why)
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andy_ppp将近 5 年前
When Tim Cooke went on about services I didn’t realise he meant stealing 30% of other people’s. Seems insane to me this racketeering is legal, I actually think people should be jailed for behaviour like this...
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stephc_int13将近 5 年前
The platform cut on app store is outrageous and has been for years.<p>This is nothing else than a tax.<p>And because both Apple and Google are adjusted on the same tax rate, this is exactly like a monopoly.<p>I am sure their infrastructure costs are largely covered at this point.<p>Developers should unite and strongly ask for a progressive reduction, a few percents each year.
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alberth将近 5 年前
Am I alone in thinking this isn’t Apple being as bad as others are making them out to be?<p>I’ll explain ...<p>Apple deeply cares about two things, (1) user experience and (2) user privacy.<p>Today, Hey iOS when downloaded IS NOT FUNCTIONAL if you didn’t know to already sign up for the service on their website. That’s a horrible experience and no one likes it. Especially Apple.<p>On Trust&#x2F;Privacy, Apple is safe guarding users CardOnFile data with all of their advanced security features that they have worked directly with the major card networks that no small developers (or even frankly medium or large developer) could compete with. This benefits the consumer by reducing fraud, and not having your credit card data sitting in some developers data unencrypted. Apple also helps auto update cardonfile data when the card expires so that the developers don’t lose revenue just because of expired cards.<p>As for the 30% fee, why shouldn’t they get a cut? If the App Store was a physical brick and mortar store Like BestBuy, I guarantee you then BestBuy wants to make margin on products they allow in their store. (A) it’s a distribution channel to a consumer you as a developer don’t have, (B) there’s hard costs to putting your product in the App Store “shelf” and (C) Apple is providing all of the easy and secure payment processing on behalf of thr developer.<p><i>Note: I’m not trying to be combative. I’m just playing devils advocate and pointing out this topic is way more complex than others are making it out to be.</i>
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bonestormii_将近 5 年前
I think the problem is the way they lock in their users by holding their personal data hostage in heir ecosystem. Your music in itunes. Your already-paid apps in the appstore that won&#x27;t transfer to android. Your ridiculously expensive phone. Your ridiculously expensive headphones that inexplicably won&#x27;t work on android phone. They own their users. And then they own the store. So then, they own the app developers. It&#x27;s bullshit. You don&#x27;t get to own everyone all the time in all those market places just because you sit on a mountain of money. Screw apple.
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dreamcompiler将近 5 年前
Could YC (and the VC community in general) put pressure on Apple to fix this nonsense? Like encouraging startups to create Android-only apps?
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localhost3000将近 5 年前
Versions of this have happened to me multiple times over the years. They never budge. The developer always gets screwed. I will never build on the App Store again.
dontblink将近 5 年前
There should be an App Store union that boycotts Apple&#x27;s policies to help to the App developers shift some of the balance of power.
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rising-sky将近 5 年前
&gt; One way that Hey could have gone, Schiller says, is to offer a free or paid version of the app with basic email reading features on the App Store then separately offered an upgraded email service that worked with the Hey app on iOS on its own website. Schiller gives one more example: an RSS app that reads any feed, but also reads an upgraded feed that could be charged for on a separate site. In both cases, the apps would have functionality when downloaded on the store.<p>Comments by Apple executive, Phil Schiller[1].<p>Is this not an agreeable solution?<p>It&#x27;s a separate debate that Apple may be charging exorbitant fees for App Store distribution when there is no competition and one that needs to be addressed, but I think this is a decent workaround, Apple is saying you can put stuff on the App Store and if it has a free version with functionality then we don&#x27;t charge you for it. Otherwise, we do.<p>[1] <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;9to5mac.com&#x2F;2020&#x2F;06&#x2F;18&#x2F;schiller-hey-app-store-policy&#x2F;" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;9to5mac.com&#x2F;2020&#x2F;06&#x2F;18&#x2F;schiller-hey-app-store-policy...</a>
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paragraft将近 5 年前
One aspect that bugs me about the situation that I&#x27;ve not seen mentioned is this disingenuous language Apple employs repeatedly in justifying its right to a percentage take on the basis of the services it&#x27;s providing in distribution etc. Eg they even describe how Basecamp&#x27;s been providing apps for free for years on their platform in the email to DHH, with overtones of Basecamp being freeloaders, and they&#x27;ve only been getting by by Apple&#x27;s forebearance.<p>Yet that argument completely underplays that it&#x27;s a two-way street - Apple gets enormous value from the aggregate weight of the collective of developers who make native apps for iOS, adding collective value to iOS products. But you never see Apple concede this. I&#x27;d even posit that even if all the apps on the App Store were free (at least free from an Apple tax), it would still be worthwhile for Apple to run it, in terms of sustaining the value of the ecosystem for iPhone buyers.
nico_h将近 5 年前
I think the other thing that sticks out is the prohibition for developer to charge different price in and out of the app store (seems to be somewhat relaxed, for example expressVPN, or maybe the trick is to not offer the exact same bundle?) and the related prohibition to mention the price difference when subscribing outside the app store.<p>If apple was so confident in the value of the app store they would let the consumer make the choice instead of preventing even a hint of competition.<p>e.g.:<p>Tap here to subscribe right now for $X (monitor your subscription in the app store app).<p>Subscribe on our site for $(.7*X) by entering your credit card information.<p>Then let apple adjust the numbers until they have the same amount of signups as before, that would let the customer decide on the value of the &quot;Apple Convenience Tax&quot; instead of preventing information disclosure.
stephc_int13将近 5 年前
Related:<p><a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.bloomberg.com&#x2F;news&#x2F;articles&#x2F;2020-06-18&#x2F;microsoft-says-antitrust-regulators-need-to-review-app-stores" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.bloomberg.com&#x2F;news&#x2F;articles&#x2F;2020-06-18&#x2F;microsoft...</a>
PeterStuer将近 5 年前
Fairly telling that these corporations that are themselves tax dodging any way they can and then some on a global scale are so draconian against people trying to dodge <i>their</i> taxe regime.
WA将近 5 年前
I have a consumer app that tried to go they Hey route (no signup, no reference to website, no IAPs), but was rejected immediately (2017), despite many other apps that do exactly that. I had to implement IAPs to have it approved.
Tehdasi将近 5 年前
Hmm I wonder if the SomethingAwful reader app is liable to be hit by this. Since it requires a login which you do have to pay for, but the app is actually done by a 3rd paty.
pedrorijo91将近 5 年前
maybe it&#x27;s time for ios developers to (temporary) remove their apps from the App Store as a protest?<p>Taking 30% without providing alternatives to install apps seems totally unfair
risyachka将近 5 年前
I personally don&#x27;t have a problem with 30% (sure I with it was more like 15% :) - this is their store, they are not forcing you to buy a phone or laptop. If you do then you agree to the rules.<p>My main problem is that they apply their rules to everyone in a different way, just like Google.<p>And they don&#x27;t even hide it and have written in their TOS that if your app is deleted for a violation, and another app is not it is ok and they decide if to enforce tos or not.<p>If they remove my app for violation - no problem. I can even do their job and send them links to apps that have the same violation, so they can remove them too. Nope, only my app.
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hejja将近 5 年前
imo this is less clear-cut than people are making it out to be.<p>I&#x27;m not saying I&#x27;m with Apple. In fact I hate platform fees.<p>But if I have a game and say, &quot;my game is subscription based&quot; to circumvent in-app purchases, how is that different?<p>In other words, where do you draw the line
etchalon将近 5 年前
I never really get the argument that Apple is somehow some horrible villain here.<p>If you own a store, you sell products at a markup. That&#x27;s how it works. You buy a widget for 0.50 and you sell it for 1.00.<p>You could say &quot;That retailer is stealing 0.50 from the producer!&quot; but no one says that.
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paulajohnson将近 5 年前
Yet another reason why not to be a sharecropper.
fxtentacle将近 5 年前
&quot;Apple Music on Android requires its own payment details to avoid Google 30% cut&quot;<p>and then this.<p>I believe DHH is correct that this is anticompetitive behavior and should be punished the legal way.
_ph_将近 5 年前
The discussions about &quot;Hey&quot; show, the question of the App Store is a complex problem. And I think it is a complex problem, because Apple made the rules far too simple to work, as reality is complex. And because of actions driven by putting the revenue over customer service. Customer in this context means both the customers using the app store and the developers selling on the app store.<p>The App Store rules cover many aspects, which should not be mixed in my eyes.<p>First: security. Reviewing apps for security is a great feature. Having a place to get reviewed apps is gread for the end customer. But many rules, like the ones about in-app purchases, have little or nothing to do with security.<p>About curation: yes, it is a great feature, if an App Store is curated and the quality of apps is ensured. And yes, offering in-app purchases is great for the customer, as it is safe and anonymous. Yet, Apple does little to curate all the freemium games, which are pretty trivial apps which allow you to spend enourmeous amounts of money on a game. Spending in excess of $100 for a silly simple game should be considered as profiteering if not outright fraudulent. But this seems to be ok in the App Store as long as you pay your 30%...<p>Besides that Apple obviously often does a bad job when curating the App Store, there are many examples, like &quot;Hey&quot;, that show, that the overly simplistic App Store rules far too often just don&#x27;t fit all business models. Therefore, there should be more differentiation in the level of services offered by Apple to the developers and the developers be able to choose the service model with its associated costs, which fits them best.<p>I think Hey profits a lot from being in the App Store, even from offering in-App purchases, as this is very customer-friendly, both from a convenience and security point. And of course, Apple is entitled to get a share of the profit Hey makes from being on the App store. But currently Apple doesn&#x27;t charge on the profit, but on the gross revenue, which is difficult for a lot companies. And this in a world, where to do business basically means, that you have to offer an app.<p>As an example, but it is not as far fetched as it may sound, consider Tesla. Tesla is a company, which sells their product via the web. They also offer an App, which is basically required to use their product - for example arranging service appointments is done via apps. Also for operating the car, the app is extremely useful. Should Apple now require Tesla to offer in-app purchases to the customers? Yes, it would be extremely convenient to be able to buy your car in the app, as it is done on the web otherwise. But obviously, Tesla couldn&#x27;t afford the 30% share of the car price. Does this give Apple the right to ban the Tesla app from the App Store with all consequences? If you think about it, this case isn&#x27;t so much more far-fetched than the case of Hey.
seek3r00将近 5 年前
<i>Preface</i><p>I think that you should always talk about average users. There is no point in talking about technical users that make up a small slice of the market pie.<p>I’m an Apple customer. I’ve an iPhone but I’m still horrified from needing to buy a developer account (which is like 99$) to install (my) apps on my iPhone (only). It would be probably possible for Apple to enable checks for personal apps, executing apps that are signed with the same iCloud account or something like that (doing all the checks on the device, no servers involved).<p>Never mind that macOS is a hot mess for (some) developers, right now. So, yeah, I have some issues with Apple too.<p><i>On compensation</i><p>I see a certain similarity between Hey, Spotify, Restocks. They all are (paid) apps trying to take advantage of Apple user base, without compensating Apple for it.<p>Meanwhile, Apple is expected to keep paying for the App Store servers, its curation team and its app approval team.<p>Obviously smartphones are getting better hence (average) users will buy a new phone less often and Apple is expected to keep supporting old devices for 5&#x2F;6 years and it has to pay the engineers who work on the OSes and the APIs, and the non-engineers that keep the show running.<p>You could argue that Android and Google are better.<p>But Android is not Google’s main business, <i>ads</i> are. Google has built (mostly free) services that generate data about its users, which is then used a bait for advertisers.<p>No one cares if you’re using F-droid instead of the Play Store, Google is still getting its checks from you and your org using Gmail, Analytics, AdSense, YouTube, etc...<p><i>On side loading</i><p>Side loading apps (for the average user) is risky and it’s mostly done for three reasons IMO:<p>- cracking apps - accessing apps that are not allowed on the Play Store - escape Google<p>I don’t really have much to say about side loading. I’m too biased against it, so maybe someone else could convince me that it’s a good thing.<p><i>Conclusion</i><p>What would happen if Apple allowed apps to use external payment options (like Stripe)?<p>Well, the obvious, no one would use IAP because there would be much cheaper services that are not compensating Apple.<p>Apple is far from perfect:<p>- the App Store approval process is a mess - the communication process is broken (removing old message exchanges, come on...) - they really don’t seem to care about indie developers<p>However, although Apple needs developers to keep running the show, without no Apple there is no iOS, no App Store. It’s a tricky problem to solve.
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realtalk_sp将近 5 年前
They would have to start by not demoting submissions with comment threads that explore this issue. This submission from 6 hours ago with 124 upvotes and 212 comments (<a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;news.ycombinator.com&#x2F;item?id=23568095" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;news.ycombinator.com&#x2F;item?id=23568095</a>) is not showing up in the first 120 items on Hacker News and I have no idea why. I&#x27;ve posted in a few places asking @dang to explain and I&#x27;m just getting downvoted. Extremely troubling.<p>EDIT: I just got up to submission 270 and still don&#x27;t see it. That submission has almost certainly been hidden somehow to prevent further discovery.<p>EDIT 2: I highly suspect Apple is somehow putting pressure on HN to do this. The way these submissions are being &#x27;controlled&#x27; is really disturbing. And it would make perfect sense for Apple to try and control discussion on HN. We basically destroyed TripleByte in just the past month. Anything scandalous affecting developers can turn into a company-melting shitstorm via HN.
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durpkingOP将近 5 年前
boohoo
tjholowaychuk将近 5 年前
I installed Hey to check it out and it’s useless from the app itself, it’s not too surprising they don’t want bad UX.
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chuinard将近 5 年前
I&#x27;m ready for the downvotes but I don&#x27;t think the App Store cut is crazy. They do reduce to 15% if you have long-running subscriptions with your user. Credit cards charge 3% to start. Apple handles distribution, updates, etc. Taking 15% at the end of the day isn&#x27;t terrible. And hey, they made the super shiny beloved iOS platform too in the first place, not to mention the SDK that makes the apps even possible to build!<p>DHH is just trying to ride cancel culture to get enough people to tweet &#x2F; complain towards Apple in hopes that they cave.
ryandrake将近 5 年前
Unpopular opinion, but if you want to make a game for the PS4, you need to play by Sony&#x27;s rules or find another platform. Or if you want to write an app that runs on Toyota&#x27;s head units, you need to play by Toyota&#x27;s rules, no matter how frustrating they are. Same goes for building an iOS app. You&#x27;re writing something for an appliance, not for a general purpose computer. I used to be an iOS developer, and that was kind of the faustian bargain we all made: Play by their (sometimes objectionable, sometimes unevenly enforced) rules or GTFO.
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ancorevard将近 5 年前
As a consumer, I hope nothing changes with the App Store. It may be tough for some app developers, but it sure is a haven for consumers.
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