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Twitter Engineering:We’re starting with a set of words we want to move away from

46 点作者 wozer将近 5 年前

18 条评论

ThrowawayR2将近 5 年前
Already discussed a day ago: <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;news.ycombinator.com&#x2F;item?id=23723433" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;news.ycombinator.com&#x2F;item?id=23723433</a>
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PragmaticPulp将近 5 年前
I worked at a company that did this almost a decade ago. The idea seemed simple enough, but the unintended consequences started adding up over the next few years.<p>The biggest problem was that the company became the arbiter of what was offensive and what was not. We felt like we came up with a comprehensive list when we started, but a few people became very good at finding new words that might possibly be offensive to someone, somewhere, in some context. Eventually the company has to draw the line and decline to remove potentially-offensive words, at which point the company is effectively declaring that topic not offensive <i>enough</i> to take action. This doesn’t go over well, and some people are very eager to make a big deal about it on social media.<p>The second problem is that declaring certain words to be possibly offensive is easily misinterpreted as declaring those words as <i>always</i> offensive. We had problems with people assuming ill intent when interview candidates and new hires accidentally used words on the banned list with no ill intentions. Marking the words themselves offensive instead of the person’s intentions creates a lot of traps for people who don’t know about or haven’t yet fully memorized the bad words list. This created a lot of divisions and cliques within the company where people were hesitant to interface with certain other groups for fear of being mistakenly marked as offensive. When the safest option is to keep to yourself or a small group of peers who you know won’t misinterpret your words, cooperation and coordination decreases.<p>The third problem was the long tail complexity of eliminating these words from the business. Doing a search and replace on the codebase and documentation is easy enough. But you’re still left with third party open source projects and services that contain the bad words. Once you reach the point of people suggesting to fork open-source services just to rename parts of the source code, the complexity and cost grows exponentially. At the worst point, we had a team trying to justify creation of an Ubuntu fork that used the phrase “manual pages” everywhere instead of the possibly-sexist “man pages”. The amount of engineering time, energy, and dollars spent debating these topics and implementing solutions spiraled into far more complexity than any of us imagined at the start.
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imgabe将近 5 年前
I just have a hard time believing that anybody hears the word &quot;Grandfathered&quot; in an engineering context and thinks: &quot;But wait a minute, I would be a Grandmother, not a Grandfather. They must be using that word to subtly indicate that they do not want me here, despite having gone through an exhaustive recruiting and interview process to select me and then paying me quite a lot of money&quot;.<p>This seems like an enormous waste of time.<p>Edit: I was corrected below about why Grandfather is considered objectionable. I think the general point still stands. Nobody is using these terms with the intent of excluding anyone. Interpreting them that way takes a deliberate effort that would probably be better spent elsewhere.
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Barrin92将近 5 年前
I actually like the more neutral terms from a technical perspective because they seem more self-evident but if people think this solves any sort of racism I&#x27;m not sure what to think<p>Jack Dorsey spent his last holiday on a private meditation retreat in Myanmar, while the people in the streets were organising anti-muslim mobs on social media. Maybe they ought to work on that if they&#x27;re looking for racism on their platform
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mellosouls将近 5 年前
<i>Twitter</i><p>to talk quickly and nervously in a high voice, saying very little of importance or interest<p><a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;dictionary.cambridge.org&#x2F;dictionary&#x2F;english&#x2F;twitter" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;dictionary.cambridge.org&#x2F;dictionary&#x2F;english&#x2F;twitter</a><p><i>Twit</i><p>a stupid person<p><a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;dictionary.cambridge.org&#x2F;dictionary&#x2F;english&#x2F;twit" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;dictionary.cambridge.org&#x2F;dictionary&#x2F;english&#x2F;twit</a>
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rvz将近 5 年前
Yet here we have a Twitter engineer who worked on this and their username is very hard for anyone to cite without &#x27;offending&#x27; another person. [0] Let me be the first and see what happens.<p>1 step forward, 512 steps back.<p>[0] <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;mobile.twitter.com&#x2F;negroprogrammer&#x2F;status&#x2F;1278728952522043393" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;mobile.twitter.com&#x2F;negroprogrammer&#x2F;status&#x2F;1278728952...</a>
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taylodl将近 5 年前
We also no longer use the word <i>niggardly</i> - even though its etymology is completely different from the other n-word that sounds similar. We somehow survived that.<p>Likewise we no longer use the word <i>retard</i> as in I need to retard this engine&#x27;s timing so it runs richer.<p>Yet both of these are words I grew up with and guess what? We&#x27;re still here and our engines are running just fine, thank you. I&#x27;m old enough to have heard with my own ears that language evolves. The set of words used today are a different set of words than were used when I was growing up and the set of words that were being used when I was growing up was a different set than were used when my grandparents were growing up. You&#x27;d think a bunch of technology people wanting to &quot;change the world&quot; would understand this better.<p>Anyway, to my ears griping about language changing is like griping about loud music: you&#x27;re just getting old. As my father always said <i>getting old stinks but it sure beats the alternative</i>. Now get off my lawn!<p>P.S. - when I was growing up you heard the word <i>stinks</i> a lot for where you&#x27;d now use the word <i>sucks</i>. But <i>sucks</i> used in such a pejorative manner was considered a 4-letter word due to its reference to fellatio. Like I said, language changes and evolves.
peterlk将近 5 年前
Can someone explain to me the &quot;dummy&quot; and &quot;sanity&quot; exceptions? I have never even considered that these words might be offensive. Perhaps not emotionally neutral, but then why not &quot;poor&quot; (performance) or &quot;silly&quot;? Is there some context that I&#x27;m not aware of?
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xingyzt将近 5 年前
The more inclusive terms are also easier to understand from my perspective as a non-native English speaker. Allowlist and legacy status, for example, are much more literal in their meaning.
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revicon将近 5 年前
As a white guy who has never experienced racism before, I don’t feel comfortable judging weather any of these changes make sense. I would hope that they’ve sat down with groups of people they believe they are offending with these words and figured out if these changes actually make a difference to them. If the have, then more power to them.
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kyriakos将近 5 年前
I honestly cannot understand how &quot;sanity check&quot; can be offensive to anyone. I am not saying there no other ways to express the same meaning but I also don&#x27;t see why it should be changed in the first place since its already established.
Galanwe将近 5 年前
As a non native speaker, I do not quite understand why &quot;dummy value&quot; and &quot;sanity check&quot; are in the list. Is there a hidden meaning behind those words?
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tazedsoul将近 5 年前
If you want to believe that a multi-billion dollar company cares about your feelings or people in general simply because it has come up with its own dictionary of acceptable words for concepts then go right ahead. What truly has Twitter done for humanity? Allowed racists and monsters to verbally assault anyone they choose, hiding behind anonymity? This is classic virtue signaling, concealing an absolute void of concern for people.
ShorsHammer将近 5 年前
So I&#x27;m meant to associate the word follower with slave if working at Twitter?<p>Some unintended consequences there given how the term is used by them in forward-facing contexts.
coffeefirst将近 5 年前
If people would like to do this, that&#x27;s cool. As long as I can still call myself crazy I see no reason to object.<p>But have no illusion: this doesn&#x27;t actually count as doing something, and you get zero accolades for it.<p>If you want to do something useful, and I highly encourage it, here are some ideas: fix your platform (start by kicking the Nazis off), fix your hiring process, and call your city council rep to ask what they&#x27;re going to do to ensure the police treat all members of the public fairly and professionally.
KoftaBob将近 5 年前
Pure virtue signaling, end of story.
techntoke将近 5 年前
What about the phrases black magic, darknet and black market?
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mnm1将近 5 年前
The stupidity is just incredible. Let&#x27;s see what happens when they take gendered pronouns out of Spanish or other similar language. What incredible stupidity and idiocy. I hope to never meet these idiots. This is on par with calling the corona virus a hoax as far as stupidity. It censors extremely common phrases. If this is what Americans think they need to do to get rid of sexism and racism, sexism and racism will never diminish in this country. Unbelievably insane stupidity. It really cannot be said enough.