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We Don’t Need to Work So Much (2015)

256 点作者 thesumofall将近 5 年前

25 条评论

TrackerFF将近 5 年前
As an European working with lots of American contractors in the tech field, I&#x27;m always impressed by their work ethics. The put in 10-12 hours, 6 days a week.<p>But from talking with them, it seems like their focus is on retirement - hopefully in their 50&#x27;s. That&#x27;s their grand plan, because that&#x27;s when they&#x27;ll start &quot;living&quot;.<p>It&#x27;s a bit of a contrast to us Scandinavians - as we really like to live in the present. No pie in the sky dreams.<p>Which is also why we guard our working rights and work-life balance like a national treasure.
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keiferski将近 5 年前
The whole ‘we should work less’ meme strikes me as more about the meaninglessness of modern work, moreso than our desire to have more leisure time. In other words: people want more meaningful work, not merely to have less meaningless work. Maybe this is an American-centric idea, wherein your work is strongly tied to your purpose and identity, but I don’t see how you can simply brush away an activity that takes up 1&#x2F;3 of your time.<p>The example in the article (Amazon packing plants) is perhaps the most pointless Kafkasque job one can imagine: packing boxes of mostly unnecessary consumeristic products.<p>Speaking only personally, but I <i>want</i> to be working so much that I have little leisure time, but only because the work I’m doing is fulfilling and fundamentally important. I have no desire to have more leisure time to consume content (which is what most people do: look up the hours spent watching TV&#x2F;video per person, or social media usage), as I don’t think consumption activities are ultimately fulfilling.
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moksly将近 5 年前
I chose to work in the public sector of Denmark because I’m ideologically inclined that way. That was decades ago, today I would chose to work here because of how much less hours I work compared to my old university friends in the private sector. They earn more money than me, but except for one of them who founded and now manages a successful company, it’s not that much more money. In fact when you calculate in all the extra hours they work, my extra weak of paid vacation, my better paternityleave, the two extra paid child’s sick leave days I get (per time your child is sick), the two yearly extra vacation days (per child under the age of 7) and my pension, I probably only earn around 10-20% less than them, and I get to spend so much more time not working. Hell I even bumped my hours to 30 a week for a while when my daughter was born. That was expensive, but it’s something you aren’t offered in a lot of private sector jobs.<p>I can’t begin to imagine how you guys in America get through life working so much. Let alone how on Earth you raise a family, maintain a relationship and have time for yourselves while you do it.
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thesumofall将近 5 年前
My European take on this: while upper class salaries might be 2-3x above middle-class salaries they don’t afford you a lifestyle that would be unrecognizable to a middle-class family. Maybe a nicer neighborhood, maybe more long-distance traveling, a good restaurant from time to time. But you’re certainly not removed from the idea that even a smaller loss in income has a direct impact on your lifestyle. So the upper class is as afraid of a loss in income as the middle class. And while middle class jobs are often union protected and have a stable market of supply and demand, upper class jobs are often highly specialized and a transition might not be as easy after having lost a job
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737min将近 5 年前
Here’s an observation: employees, companies &amp; countries that are winning tend to work harder. Those that are merely coasting or declining - eg in a situation where there is nothing to win with more effort - work less hard.<p>Elon Musk - “no one changes the world working 40 hr weeks” - is trying to win in a global competition. Your uncle Bob who is Director of QA at Oracle? Probably not playing to win.<p>Countries like Japan or SKorea or China are trying to win. US is trying to win. Denmark or Italy are no longer trying to win a world-wide competition.<p>No one has shown that individuals, companies or countries can wim while working less than the competition.
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kqr将近 5 年前
It&#x27;s also the fact that many modern, well-paid jobs are actually somewhat satisfying. Humans get off on solving problems, as long as they are allowed autonomy, mastery, and purpose.<p>The things I do at work are the things I would do also in my spare time, if I had more of it. I like solving puzzles. So if I&#x27;m going to do this stuff anyway, why not get paid for it?[1]<p>Of course, I don&#x27;t want to do it for more than around 40 hours[2] a week (mainly because I have other things I also want to do, and there&#x27;s only so many hours in total to do all the things in) but I do want to do it for a significant portion of my day. I need that intellectual stimulation to be happy.<p>But I can imagine some people want to go &quot;beyond the average&quot; and really show their employers their commitment. In a world where people happily volunteer 40 hours a week to satisfy their inner desires, there&#x27;s little room to do anything other than offer 60 hours to prove yourself better.[3]<p>[1]: Well, I know why. If your employer is bad you won&#x27;t find work as fulfilling. So maybe my hypothesis doesn&#x27;t hold up anyway.<p>[2]: Now that I have a young child at home, I&#x27;m starting to think about asking for less than 40 hours. There have simply become more other interesting things for me to do.<p>[3]: Well, you could work more efficiently instead, which would be my preferred solution. But I think a lot of people are stuck in a rut of average skill but want to present themselves as beyond average. At that point you cannot do &quot;better&quot;, you can only do &quot;more&quot;. (Which might lead to better, come to think of it.)
pixelrevision将近 5 年前
This has always bothered me. In the US there is no way I have seen beyond running your own business to negotiate the time spent working. When I started in the work force I thought taking a smaller salary for 4 day work week would be a reasonable tradeoff but everyone thought I was nuts. I have tried over the years asking for more vacation or shorter weeks for a pay cut but workplaces are just not equipped to handle those sorts of requests. The system here does not value free time in the same way it does money.
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noisy_boy将近 5 年前
This is made worse by those insufferable over-zealous team members with a i-can-wag-my-tail-harder-than-you attitude. They send emails from holiday expressing their concern over a change, which frankly no one gives a damn about, and moan their semi-brags on how they are dying under work because how random senior managers (who don&#x27;t give a crap about them and are just playing them to get more work done) have &quot;insisted on my involvement&quot;. These are the kind of rotten apples who don&#x27;t have a life and drag those that do have&#x2F;want one to the bottomless pit of overwork. &#x2F;rant
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wsc981将近 5 年前
Recently I came across this video &quot;The design for easy life&quot;: <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.youtube.com&#x2F;watch?v=b2eoQyYoUww" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.youtube.com&#x2F;watch?v=b2eoQyYoUww</a><p>I live in Thailand and am very interested in working less for other people and more for myself. At first I though I&#x27;d need to invest maybe 500.000 USD and then perhaps I should be able to live on investments. But this video changed my mind, perhaps I should be able to get by with a lot less.<p>This Thai farmer claims to work about 1 hour a day and that 1 hour of daily work generates for him around 50 USD. More than enough to take care of his family.<p>Another interesting video from this farmer on &quot;Sufficiency&quot;: <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.youtube.com&#x2F;watch?v=LWwh5N0JRhk" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.youtube.com&#x2F;watch?v=LWwh5N0JRhk</a>
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MisterBastahrd将近 5 年前
If you are on salary and you are putting in more than 40 hours a week, you are working to buy your boss his vacation home, not your own.
perfunctory将近 5 年前
The core idea of the article can be found in a paragraph somewhere in the middle of the piece<p>&gt; What all of these explanations have in common is the idea that the answer comes from examining workers&#x27; decisions and incentives. There’s something missing: the question of whether the American system, by its nature, resists the possibility of too much leisure, even if that’s what people actually want, and even if they have the means to achieve it. In other words, the long hours may be neither the product of what we really want nor the oppression of workers by the ruling class, the old Marxist theory. They may be the byproduct of systems and institutions that have taken on lives of their own and serve no one’s interests. That can happen if some industries have simply become giant make-work projects that trap everyone within them.<p>Now. I strongly believe that software &#x2F; IT industry is one of those make-work projects.
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bluetomcat将近 5 年前
In service sectors of the economy, work can be created out of thin air, without any proportional returns in the form of increased well-being of society.<p>For example, you may spend days improving every little detail of that customer email template, for marginal or no returns over the previous template.
k__将近 5 年前
I&#x27;m from Germany and none of my friends work full-time anymore.<p>50% - 80% is the norm.
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Taylor_OD将近 5 年前
I&#x27;d love to work 4 days a week. It just doesnt seem like it&#x27;s possible. But having Wednesday&#x27;s off and being able to actually take a week or more of vacation a few times a year as a manager would make my life so much better.
CalRobert将近 5 年前
It&#x27;s a little disappointing they don&#x27;t address the idea of peer competition.<p>We live in a time of insane material wealth, so we create artificial scarcities of necessities to ensure peers compete with each other.<p>The article does mention the substantial rises in productivity we&#x27;ve had, but this: &quot;There’s something missing: the question of whether the American system, by its nature, resists the possibility of too much leisure, even if that’s what people actually want&quot; merited far more exploration.<p>There&#x27;s a horrible positive feedback loop going on.<p>Say 10 people want a home in an area that has, oh, 8 homes.<p>If somebody chooses to work long hours, read emails on weekends, etc. they have a better shot at getting promotions and being able to outbid their peers for those homes. If someone doesn&#x27;t do this, they have a better chance at falling in to the 2 people who can&#x27;t afford a home.<p>So the workaholics work and work and work, get the raise, and buy a home with a big mortgage attached. Maybe a $1.5 million dump in San Jose. Now they&#x27;re a highly-leveraged housing speculator who desperately can&#x27;t afford for house prices go down. And the leverage they used to buy the house is secured with the threat of homelessness and personal ruin.<p>So they oppose any and all new building ferociously and cruelly. Scarcity is the only reason their house even has value!<p>Similarly, _they_ had to work nights and weekends, so why shouldn&#x27;t other people? As they rise up the ladder this is what they select for.<p>So we have house prices ratcheting upwards, people working themselves to the bone to get in to the club of &quot;homeowners&quot; (a dubious word when you owe 90% of the home&#x27;s value to the bank), and a strong incentive to make sure it keeps going that way.<p>It&#x27;s true that presenteeism and wasted time at work are an issue, but ultimately there is a point where more time working means producing more (say 20 hours vs 10), and in a sector where results are hard to quantify people go for the easy thing to measure - hours where you butt was in the seat.<p>I mean, houses are pretty cheap to build. Habitat for Humanity does it for $50k. Imagine if you could work part time and build your own home? It would threaten people whose power comes from housing scarcity! Why, what if it turns out there&#x27;s no inherent reason their house should cost 25 times the median income? Can&#x27;t be having that! Better make it illegal to build homes (or demolish existing low-density ones) anywhere near a job.<p>The only homes that get built near high paying jobs now are over the wailing shrieks of existing rent-seekers (aka homeowners). The person who owns a home in Berkeley can vote, because they live in the area, but the person who would _like_ to live in Berkeley but commutes from Stockton has no voice. I&#x27;m hopeful that remote work will finally destroy their power, though with a decrease in tech incomes as well.
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LatteLazy将近 5 年前
If you look at the employment rate, you will see that only about 65% of working age people have a job. Any job.<p><a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;tradingeconomics.com&#x2F;united-states&#x2F;employment-rate" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;tradingeconomics.com&#x2F;united-states&#x2F;employment-rate</a><p>Add in the huge number of OAPs and most developed nations have sub 50% of people working. A lot of the issues we have (from stress and mental health to inequality to the rise of extremism) can be linked to the fact that we have fewer and fewer people working harder and harder supporting more and more others.<p>We either need to find some ways to reverse this trend OR we need to embrace it. But if we are embracing it, we need to deal with the consequences (everything from access to healthcare to burnout to how we decide who has to work and how we compensate\reward them for doing so).<p>Right now, this is a massive social change that goes basically ignored. Whether people like Yang and Musk are right about automation and the rise of AI or not, change is upon us and we cannot keep ignoring it.
alexashka将近 5 年前
I don&#x27;t think it&#x27;s a quantity problem, it&#x27;s an existential problem.<p><i>Why</i> are we doing what we&#x27;re doing?<p>When the best answer anyone can come up with is &#x27;so that my kids get to have a good life&#x27;, it&#x27;s not enough.<p>It&#x27;s average people living in a system that&#x27;s designed to make them replaceable and eventually get rid of needing them completely.<p>Not get rid of them so that they can enjoy the human achievement of no longer needing to work, no, get rid of them so that somebody rich can then hire you as a wage slave to do whatever pleases them that day.<p>I wonder if this is just inevitable - it would explain the existence of the pyramids - why else would anyone build them, but because there were so many idle hands and a few bored ego-maniacs? Unless of course, aliens :)
tslling将近 5 年前
In China, &quot;996&quot;(9am-9pm, 6 days a week)[0] is popular in tech companies, now more and more compnanies are adopting this work schedule, so employees have much fewer choices if they want a &quot;normal&quot; schedule. The administration did not enforece labour laws well in order to pursue economic interests. What makes it worse is that, as this work schedule becomes a trending, some companies and employees take it as granted.<p>[0]<a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;996.icu&#x2F;#&#x2F;en_US" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;996.icu&#x2F;#&#x2F;en_US</a>
abellerose将近 5 年前
I assume working less while still making the same annually would lower suicide rate. One of the main reasons people commit suicide is financial problems. Added free time is never unwanted and can be substituted for whatever the person desires. I personally think we’re burning out the younger generation with all the optimizations that have came with technology but at the same time continuing to expect more from people. I think we’re missing out on what benefits come to society when people are less overworked.
sharker8将近 5 年前
Well this didn&#x27;t age well. We have now used the pandemic to force work into our homes, if anyone was even pretending it didn&#x27;t follow them before all of this. That is of course only true for those who can still find work. Of course, the dynamic of job scarcity creates an even worse version of stockholm syndrome for those &#x27;lucky&#x27; enough to continue to draw paychecks.
2sk21将近 5 年前
And there is also this related article that was discussed a lot here on HN last year: <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.theatlantic.com&#x2F;ideas&#x2F;archive&#x2F;2019&#x2F;02&#x2F;religion-workism-making-americans-miserable&#x2F;583441&#x2F;" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.theatlantic.com&#x2F;ideas&#x2F;archive&#x2F;2019&#x2F;02&#x2F;religion-w...</a>
htatche将近 5 年前
I just refused a full-time offer because of this. Instead, I prefer to work few hours a day for my current contract and hope that things get better post-covid. Still, if anyone is looking for a Ruby contractor to give a hand in some project, reach out :)
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markus_zhang将近 5 年前
Maybe it&#x27;s just me, but the idea of retiring early and then travel the world is really strange to me. I&#x27;d rather spend my life seeking and working on the next ideal job, and the only time that I&#x27;ll skip it is when I believe it&#x27;s impossible to get the ideal job. For now, if you give me a BI&#x2F;DE job I&#x27;d be happily to work at least 60 hours and keep improving my shits. In short, I&#x27;d rather die working.<p>But again I&#x27;m not against FIRE, because most of the time people don&#x27;t get to do their ideal job (or even the top 5 ideal jobs), and in their shoes I&#x27;d rather just grab enough $$ and retire early. The point is, sadly, in modern society, many people are not really getting the chance to contribute to the society in a way both he&#x2F;she and the society are satisfied with. This is very sad. The idea of Communism, at least part of it, is to make sure that each person out there gets the chance to fulfill their dreams and do their best, and this is really attracting.
geertj将近 5 年前
The article starts with the assumption that the total amount of work in an economy is fixed and that the extra hours we make are make-work. I beg to differ. At least in high tech, we can improve a product or service as many times as we want. Each of these improvements can be from relatively minor to requiring years of research. The total work per year is how fast we move through these improvements. The free market forces this to be higher every year due to competition.
yelloweyes将近 5 年前
Lmfao. How naive can people be?<p>Do you honestly think capitalists don&#x27;t know that when people have free time they start thinking about life, and when people start thinking about life, bad shit happens to capitalists?
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