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The Death of Corporate Research Labs

355 点作者 banjo_milkman超过 4 年前

31 条评论

jillesvangurp超过 4 年前
I worked at Nokia Research Center for a while when it was still market leader making smart phones. My observation is that most companies that have a research center also have some level of disconnect between their main business and their research branches. The two just operate on different time lines.<p>More worryingly and problematic is that there is also a notion of &quot;not invented here&quot; where business units have very little patience for things coming out of research units because they weren&#x27;t involved. It&#x27;s petty and stupid and in Nokia&#x27;s case a large part of the reason why Apple and Google ate its lunch. It&#x27;s not that they did not have competing technology but that they didn&#x27;t know what to do with it.<p>Corporate R&amp;D works best when corporate leadership has some level of affinity with it. Elon Musk is a great example of a true R&amp;D minded leader. All his companies are basically are R&amp;D labs that happen to produce insanely valuable products as a side effect. It takes a certain type of leadership to funnel billions to the right projects and then turn them into successful products. It requires something most business leaders simply don&#x27;t have: a clue. Elon Musk for all his flaws understands technology deeply. Most of his contemporaries in the car industry are clueless bean counters that know little more about cars than the number of wheels they are typically equipped with. I bet pretty much all of them had R&amp;D labs 20 years ago working on exactly the kind of things that Tesla brought to market successfully. They just bungled turning that into product because of a lack of vision &amp; technical leadership.
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dnautics超过 4 年前
Maybe it&#x27;s more fruitful to not just consider the Death of Corporate Research Labs, but also ask ourselves &quot;why did they even exist in the first place?&quot; This day in age, the <i>expectation</i>, for better or worse, is that the State sponsors research; this was very much not the case from, say 1850-1950. Luminaries did tons of basic science research under the auspices of corporate (like Irving Langmuir) and private (like Peter Mitchell) labs.<p>Without assigning causality (I happen to think that the primary cause is &quot;low hanging fruit&quot; phenomenon), the transition to state sponsored research has coincided with a general loss of scientific productivity in many fields, and even in some fields with explosive growth, like genomics, there has been major corporate involvement (half the human genome was sequenced by a not just private, but a wall-street traded, entity).<p>Yet the narrative of late has been &quot;if the state doesn&#x27;t sponsor it, nobody will&quot;. I don&#x27;t feel like I have a solid understanding of why corporate research labs were a thing, or even, how science got done in the pre-manhattan-project&#x2F;Vannevar Bush era.
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linguae超过 4 年前
As a (non-PhD) researcher who works for one of the last traditional industrial research labs in Silicon Valley, I&#x27;ve noticed this trend for years. I&#x27;ve seen industrial research labs either close or become increasingly focused on short-term engineering goals. I also have noticed that newer Silicon Valley companies have adopted what Google calls a &quot;hybrid approach&quot; (<a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;research.google&#x2F;pubs&#x2F;pub38149&#x2F;" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;research.google&#x2F;pubs&#x2F;pub38149&#x2F;</a>) where there are no divisions between research groups and product groups, and where researchers are expected to write production-quality code. I&#x27;ve noticed many of my PhD-holding peers taking software engineering positions when they finish their PhD programs, and I also noticed more people who were formerly employed as researchers at places like IBM Almaden and HP Labs switch to software engineering positions at FAANG or unicorn companies.<p>Unfortunately, as someone who is also working toward finishing a PhD, I&#x27;ve seen very little guides for CS PhD students that reflect this reality. To be honest, I love research and I&#x27;d love to stay a researcher throughout my career, but I don&#x27;t have the same love for software engineering, though I am comfortable coding. Unfortunately with these trends, traditional research is now largely confined to academia, which is very competitive to enter and where COVID-19&#x27;s effects on its future are uncertain at this time, and federal laboratories such as Los Alamos and Lawrence Livermore. I fear losing my job (nothing lasts forever) and having to grind LeetCode since there are few other industrial research labs, though given the reality maybe I should start grinding LeetCode anyway.
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mobilefriendly超过 4 年前
It is pretty strange to blame the &quot;more relaxed antitrust environment in the 1980s&quot; when it was the 1982 anti-trust breakup of Ma Bell that destroyed Bell Labs and ended the monopoly profit flows that subsidized the telecom labs.
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IfOnlyYouKnew超过 4 年前
Corporations still do invest large sums of money into long-term projects: most acquisitions as well as buildings are amortised over a decade or so, which is about the time-frame I would expect research to have, on average. Airplane and car development also comes to mind.<p>So I believe the complaint about &quot;short-termism&quot; has become a bit too popular. It&#x27;s great to prop up your bona-fides as a cynic. It&#x27;s less good at explaining actual behaviour.<p>Instead, I believe research has simply become less profitable over time. The decades from about 1920 into the 1980 were a time of extraordinary rapid successes in the hard sciences: the scientific method had been established, and industry, finance, law, transport, and communications all made sudden jumps into modernity, allowing scientific institutions as we know them today to exist.<p>If you read about the history of physics, for example, you&#x27;ll see photos of the entire class of 192x at some German university, and every single person on the photo later won a Nobel or had at least some minor unit named after them.<p>We have continued to improve institutions, infrastructure, and our ability to broaden the chance to get into the sciences. But, unfortunately, it&#x27;s almost a rule of nature that progress slows over time. That&#x27;s sort-of soothing, actually, because it means we aren&#x27;t entirely incapable of prioritising easier thing.<p>Government-sponsored research can continue at higher prices. But private, for-profit endeavours have a very specific point where expected returns turn negative.
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CharlesMerriam2超过 4 年前
This type of article comes up from time to time, and is generally wrong on many points.<p>* Corporate Labs are not for primary research, at least in the United States. In the U.S., any primary research is done at universities, developed from research to prototype and patent at NASA, and then licensed to a U.S. company to go to product. For non-primary research, prototypes are developed by corporations via grants from government agencies.<p>* Bell Labs, before AT&amp;T monopoloy breakup, was a special business case. Its funding existed in a game of legislation maneuvering. It is not an exemplar.<p>* Think of labs as &quot;tier 5 tech support, when the engineers are stumped&quot;.<p>Most labs are holding areas for smart people to solve sudden business problems. For those who read the famous analysis of criticality accidents in non-military settings, you need some smart folk hanging around to prevent disasters.<p>For example, Sun Labs had people working (forever) on some hopeful breakthrough. Howard Davidson, a failure engineer, was pulled off task when server boxes started breaking (paper washers being glued in manufacturing) or card connections started failing (silver substituted for gold). These were high impact problems not solvable by line engineers.<p>Similarly Ricoh Labs had a day when everyone was pulled off to disassemble a large machine and figure out a feeding problem that had a hard solution. Intel keeps materials PhDs in the fab areas just in case something comes up that would slow throughput.<p>* Many labs have reputations no longer deserved. I worked at PARC and found some teams made magic and others made bloat. Look at the short term results, meaning the past decade, to rate a lab.
aborsy超过 4 年前
Research is very hard and has low financial rewards. If it’s funded by state, it’s poorly paid (think of grad students, postdocs, APs). If it’s funded by corporate, it’s basically tedious product design and it’s not interesting science or even proper research anymore. In industry, it’s typically done by second class citizens. Long term research is worse.<p>We have the classical problem of creating value vs capturing the value.<p>I believe that’s a major factor. I often meet students and the vast majority want good paying 9-5 jobs and don’t want to bother with research or academic papers.
akbirkhan超过 4 年前
I&#x27;m really confused. When looking at artificial intelligence it seems that actually we have dominating corporate labs which through integrated services (such as compute and data), totally dominate academia.<p>It&#x27;s coming to the point where researchers that want to make a difference are actively choosing corporate research labs over academic ones.
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mensetmanusman超过 4 年前
“ Large corporate labs, however, are unlikely to regain the importance they once enjoyed. Research in corporations is difficult to manage profitably. “<p>The easy fix is to classify the work as a net positive for a community, and provide tax incentives such that it becomes by definition profitable, since society can cost-in the scenario where the lab doesn’t exist.
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zerop超过 4 年前
I would attribute it to recent culture of ROI grown in high leadership of the company. They don&#x27;t understand patience, values, human relationships and necessary soft skills to realise that Innovation and research are vital health of the company. Problem is they are all fast thinkers and great presenters and that&#x27;s what js valued nowadays in orgs. The innovators and researchers can&#x27;t sustain in this environment. The leadership wants ROI from everything, even research. That&#x27;s not going to create a good culture and innovation wouldn&#x27;t grow.
mjfl超过 4 年前
This article argues what I believe is the opposite of the truth: that corporate research productivity is correlated with anti trust enforcement. I think this is very wrong! Bell labs really fell apart AFTER AT&amp;T was broken up. Xerox parc declined AFTER Xerox was ruled a monopoly. Anti trust enforcement KILLED innovation, and I think it’s really important that we get the correct relationship here.
timkam超过 4 年前
What worsens the problem is that publicly funded research often solves toy application problems (at least in CS); academics know that they need to &quot;apply&quot; their research to get funding&#x2F;citations&#x2F;publications with relatively little effort, but from an industry&#x2F;real-world perspective, many application scenarios hardly make sense and are hand-wavy-ly evaluated (for example, in applications of CS, too often the code is not shared so that the results are practically not reproducible). The current system simply rewards researchers who manage to get into the top venues with the least effort possible, and for many who aren&#x27;t brilliant the pseudo-application approach is the way to go. IMHO, this broadens the gap between academia and industry, because it&#x27;s hard for a practitioner to pick out the few relevant nuggets in a stream of half-baked applied research.
f00zz超过 4 年前
This sounds a bit hyperbolic when you have Microsoft doing pie-in-the-sky research on topological quantum computing, Google and IBM research teams arguing over quantum supremacy, etc.
Balgair超过 4 年前
Good overview!<p>I work in a corporate research lab. We&#x27;re not big (market cap ~25B) but there is a real thirst for innovations.<p>I&#x27;ll echo the point about Research v Development. We&#x27;re much more heavy on the development side of things, with time horizons of ~3.5 years. Research is ~10 years. Our research department is just me and 4 other guys. Our development department is <i>much</i> larger.<p>One thing I found different is in M&amp;A. We&#x27;ve purposefully <i>not</i> done a lot of M&amp;As. Mostly because the bureaucracy is so thick here. Monopolizing the time of the smaller companies is simpler and faster than trying to onboard them. I suspect there are healthcare issues involved too.<p>It&#x27;ll be interesting to see how long things last.
ylem超过 4 年前
I remember an interesting article (I can&#x27;t find the reference) that made the claim that for a number of pharma labs, the advantage in hiring researchers is not that they are likely to make a great discovery--but rather that they will be up to date with the literature and be able to recognize a potentially great discovery and to productize it. This is not necessarily trivial as a number of things that work in an academic lab setting don&#x27;t translate into actual usable drugs.
gauravsc超过 4 年前
I&#x27;m not sure how true that is for sectors other than software&#x2F;AI, but in AI most academic researcher complain that all the moonshot research (often not even commercially applicable) is now solely coming from corporate research labs e.g. Deepmind, Facebook etc., as opposed to universities. They attribute this to poaching of faculty by companies, lack of resources in universities, lack of motivation in grad students to stay in academia.
Razengan超过 4 年前
There should be [more] publicly-funded, non-profit organizations that do research for research&#x27;s sake, whose fruits are made available to all.<p>To avoid the problem of controversial projects causing some funding sources to pull their support, there could be mechanisms for funding individual projects.<p>And to avoid the risk of reappropriation by a government or military, they could be hosted in the EU. :)
ChrisLomont超过 4 年前
As of 2016 corporate R&amp;D was at a record high.<p><a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.aip.org&#x2F;fyi&#x2F;2016&#x2F;us-rd-spending-all-time-high-federal-share-reaches-record-low" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.aip.org&#x2F;fyi&#x2F;2016&#x2F;us-rd-spending-all-time-high-fe...</a>
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mark_l_watson超过 4 年前
I worked at SAIC back when it was a small company (and before changing the name to Leidos). I will forever be grateful for being able to work about 25% of my time on IR&amp;D, all of my own choosing. I think the US government allowed us about 1% or 2% of our gross to be reimbursed R&amp;D - I forget the details.<p>At my last job before retiring (Capital One, a great company to work for BTW) my team had a huge amount of autonomy on what we worked on, but my team was awesome.<p>I don’t really understand the relative merits of many small R&amp;D projects vs. huge infrastructure. Perhaps the industry is just moving to a many small projects approach?
TheGrassyKnoll超过 4 年前
Well, corporate research money may be drying up, so now the public is being asked to fund it (at least in California). There&#x27;s a $5.5 billion bond initiative (Proposition 14) on the ballot for 2020. This is similar to proposition 71 which was passed in 2004 for $3 billion, &quot;The California Stem Cell Research and Cures Act”.<p><pre><code> California Proposition 14, the Stem Cell Research Institute Bond Initiative, https:&#x2F;&#x2F;ballotpedia.org&#x2F;California_Proposition_14,_Stem_Cell_Research_Institute_Bond_Initiative_(2020)</code></pre>
usrusr超过 4 年前
Trouble starts with the term R&amp;D which names two separate things that rarely go together (I think PARC was somewhat close to doing both). A company research lab would be decidedly not development or it&#x27;s not a research lab. The best way to run a company research lab is to run it as a marketing tool, like a slightly more on-topic way of sponsoring a sports team. IBM seems to do it that way, at least whenever a bluishly named supercomputer is ruining yet another human game. I wonder if they are aware of that analogy.
LatteLazy超过 4 年前
Research has (correctly) been outsourced. If you have a good idea, go prove it and then you can sell it to Acme for $100m. That&#x27;s a much better deal for Acme because they only need to buy things that work. And it&#x27;s a much better deal for you (you get $100m to share with your investors instead of a $10 dollar voucher [0] for a $100m idea).<p>[0]: <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;en.wikipedia.org&#x2F;wiki&#x2F;Tracy_Hall" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;en.wikipedia.org&#x2F;wiki&#x2F;Tracy_Hall</a>
fallingfrog超过 4 年前
This is part of a larger pattern where we are not investing in anything anymore that doesn’t bring immediate returns to some investor; not basic research as in the article, not public infrastructure, not planning for things like climate change. It’s all about immediate gratification, fast returns. Kicking the can on every problem and avoiding any unpleasant decisions or long term investments.
TabTwo超过 4 年前
Looking out of my office window in Stuttgart I can see the big sign „Nokia Bell Labs“. You can almost smell all the history this sign carries
Sniffnoy超过 4 年前
Non-mobile link: <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;blog.dshr.org&#x2F;2020&#x2F;05&#x2F;the-death-of-corporate-research-labs.html" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;blog.dshr.org&#x2F;2020&#x2F;05&#x2F;the-death-of-corporate-researc...</a>
amelius超过 4 年前
Big pharma still has research labs. Or else, where do all their patents come from?
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jrochkind1超过 4 年前
Interesting, after the Bell Labs example, I was going to guess that anti-trust enforcement meant that companies weren&#x27;t big enough to afford an internal lab anymore.<p>But the OP, quoting&#x2F;citing Arora et al, actually suggests the REVERSE causative correlation:<p>&gt; Historically, many large labs were set up partly because antitrust pressures constrained large firms’ ability to grow through mergers and acquisitions. In the 1930s, if a leading firm wanted to grow, it needed to develop new markets. With growth through mergers and acquisitions constrained by anti-trust pressures, and with little on offer from universities and independent inventors, it often had no choice but to invest in internal R&amp;D.<p>And that in fact later &quot;lack of anti-trust enforcement... killed the labs&quot;.<p>Makes sense to me. Goes to show that our &quot;intuition&quot; (of course informed by cultural assumptions) for how capitalism works and it&#x27;s effects isn&#x27;t necessarily accurate.
kratom_sandwich超过 4 年前
Previous discussion: <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;news.ycombinator.com&#x2F;item?id=23246672" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;news.ycombinator.com&#x2F;item?id=23246672</a>
the-dude超过 4 年前
Previously : <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;news.ycombinator.com&#x2F;item?id=23246672" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;news.ycombinator.com&#x2F;item?id=23246672</a>
valenciarose超过 4 年前
Under-taxation of corporations plays a significant role in the decline of research spending. While potential competitive advantage is one reason to pursue research and development, taxes and the interplay between tax and corporate accounting are another reason (even prior to 1981).<p>While taxes paid by corporations benefit the general public, from the corporation’s point of view taxes are money out the door with zero possible return. So what does a prudent corporation do with its profits? It recognizes that they are potential capital and seeks to maximize the risk-adjusted return on capital.<p>It can bank them at the risk-free rate of return, but we should remember taxes will take a healthy chunk out of that return on the front end. It can pay them out to investors as dividends (increasing the return on remaining capital by reducing the denominator). Note that under rational tax schemes the risk adjusted return on capital should be equivalent to investing at the risk free rate of return (modulo management of cash-flow risks). It can buy riskier assets with higher return, such as other companies. And it can make much riskier investments, like research and development. As with most things financial, the best overall risk adjusted return on capital is diverse in both kind and in risk level. It should do all of those things (treating dividends as equivalent to investment at the risk free rate of return), with the proportion going to each tuned to achieve the aggregate optimum(1). Also, can you see how a regulated utility with(like AT&amp;T of old) would find R&amp;D attractive for spicing up its asset mix?<p>Think of R&amp;D as producing a stream of lottery tickets with the drawing in the distant future. Those lottery tickets (for a tech company) can pay off in two ways. One is that they could produce or enhance a revenue stream. The other is that they could reduce risk in the form of patents (reduce competitive risk and risk of patent suits by threat of countersuit). Both of these payoffs improve risk adjusted return on capital (by generating return or reducing risk). The neat thing about R&amp;D for a company that’s paying real taxes is that much of the cost is (from a tax point of view) is an expense. In other words, that allocation of capital doesn’t have the upfront bite taken out of it that occurs when profits are directed to risk free assets. Looking at this from a risk-adjusted return point of view, having a real tax burden increases the appetite for risk by decreasing the relative attractiveness of the risk-free alternative after taxes. This is doubly true for expenditures that look like expenses to tax collectors but look like capital investment for corporate accounting purposes.<p>None of this holds true if a company isn’t paying much in the way of taxes on its profits. It doesn’t mean some amount of R&amp;D isn’t still attractive, but the appetite for risk is lower. And let’s be clear, R&amp;D in research labs is the riskiest kind of R&amp;D.<p>Well, you might say, the 1981 R&amp;D tax credit is sweeter than a deduction. Doesn’t that tilt the scales back? Yes, but subject to the limitations of the tax credit (which are numerous). But, like the deduction, the tax credit is much less valuable for companies that aren’t paying taxes on their profits. And, to be clear, this is a Reagan measure taken with full knowledge of what was expected to happen to corporate tax rates and the impact that might have on R&amp;D investment. It’s a partial mitigant for that, nothing more.<p>I am fully aware that I have murdered both CAPM and the practice of accounting in compressing this down to a reasonable post with what I hope is a clear narrative. My apologies to practitioners of both.<p>(1) An important aside: People make equity investments to take more risk in the expectation of higher return. Beyond the cash cushion necessary for minimizing cash-flow risk, massive cash hoards do nothing but dilute the risk (and return) rational investors are actively seeking to take. There is some argument to be made that large tech companies keep huge cash hoards because their core businesses are riskier than they appear (esp black swan events), but it probably has more to do with founders desire for independence.
totesraunch超过 4 年前
This is Capitalism. Let the government and educational institutions spend all of the money, do the real work and research, and then as a private company swoop in and reap all of the benefits.<p>A blatant example would be Gilead Truvada for PrEP. US Tax payer funded research and all profits go straight to Gilead.
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