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On not choosing WordPress for the W3C redesign project

202 点作者 ziodave超过 4 年前

32 条评论

frereubu超过 4 年前
I&#x27;m technical director of an agency that builds websites solely in WordPress, and I can say with feeling that Gutenberg has (so far) been a disaster not just in terms of accessibility but in terms of clarity of the development process. It&#x27;s been a moving target since day one, with us constantly scrambling to keep up with large changes in each release. We held off for a while, and have only built three sites with it, but I wish we&#x27;d held off longer.<p>For example, there have been major interfaces changes on a regular basis, each of which we have to spend time walking our clients through. One change - defaulting to full-screen editing, which hides the menus and loses a lot of context that editors were used to - was pushed through at the last minute of a release cycle with a personal intervention from Matt Mullenweg. That meant that suddenly editors were confronted with an unfamiliar editing interface even if they were already registered and hadn&#x27;t changed anything themselves, rather than a dismissible tooltip letting existing editors know that they could use a new full-screen editing interface. That seemingly arbitrary and personal style of project management really doesn&#x27;t foster confidence that things are being thought through carefully.<p>I know from personal experience that you need to keep up momentum in a development project otherwise things stagnate, but so far the development of Gutenberg has been very much &quot;move fast and break things&quot; which would feel appropriate for a beta, but not for the default editing experience.<p>I think Gutenberg may well turn out to be really good - our clients do prefer it over the classic editor once we have it under control - but the way this has been managed has lost a lot of good will on our part as an agency and I&#x27;ve been actively looking at other CMSes like Craft as a result.
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darekkay超过 4 年前
Not choosing and inaccessible platform was the right thing to do. Hopefully this will make Automattic reconsider their priorities regarding web accessibility.<p>Related write-up: <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;adrianroselli.com&#x2F;2020&#x2F;09&#x2F;gutenberg-accessibility-costs-wordpress-the-w3c-work.html" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;adrianroselli.com&#x2F;2020&#x2F;09&#x2F;gutenberg-accessibility-co...</a>
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systemvoltage超过 4 年前
&gt; One final note. We are currently considering a Headless CMS option for front-end page delivery. This means using the CMS in a decoupled way to manage content but use a separate system to deliver front-end pages. Please note this solution would not be reliant on JavaScript (e.g. a single page app which is common with headless.<p>Excellent. SPAs have their place in things like Notion and Google Docs. I’m glad they’re not depending on Javascript.
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tiborsaas超过 4 年前
It&#x27;s no wonder, Craft is a great pick. I&#x27;ve built numerous sites with it and it works like a charm. What they nailed down is that it has great UX for content creators and developers as well. The speed at which you can build sites is amazing.<p>You can even build your startup MVP with it if you consider it as a headless, REST API prototype tool. Data modelling is where it excels.<p>I guess I have to stop praising, it starts to feel like a paid ad :)<p>BTW I don&#x27;t get the naysaying for being proprietary, the source is open.
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seanwilson超过 4 年前
When working with WordPress, can anyone recommend a trustworthy place to go for plugin recommendations?<p>The problems I find with WordPress are:<p>- WordPress core is missing a ton of stuff you&#x27;d expect to be there so you have to turn to plugins.<p>- It&#x27;s hard to assess the quality of plugins. They conflict with each other, kill page speed, they break as WordPress is upgraded, and there&#x27;s tons of bad advice you have to navigate around (I find this problem with PHP in general, where top voted answers&#x2F;suggestions are bad so you need to keep your wits about you more-so than other communities).<p>Generally when I&#x27;m fixing WordPress websites, I&#x27;m stripping out all plugins (I&#x27;ve seen over 50 on one site before!) that have been added by non-technical users, then trying to find the simplest way with the fewest plugins to get the functionality back to what it was.<p>You can get pretty far with just ACF, a contact form plugin, an optimisation plugin (how is page caching still not built into WordPress?), and coding small features into themes directly.
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ognarb超过 4 年前
So while talking during the entire article about being firm supporter of open source software, they choose a proprietary CMS. I&#x27;m disappointed by the W3C.
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colourgarden超过 4 年前
One important point tucked away here that is getting missed:<p>&gt; Another major factor in the decision to remove WordPress from consideration was that they found “no elegant solution to content localization and translation.”<p>To restate - WordPress does not support multiple languages by default. And anyone who has built a multi-language WP site with one of the popular plugins (WPML, Polylang) can attest that it&#x27;s a pretty terrible editorial experience.<p>Craft, for example, has (very good) multi-language support out-of-the-box.<p>Studio24 and W3C probably should have pushed that point rather than accessibility concerns.
cjfd超过 4 年前
The &#x27;eat your own dog food&#x27; principle would dictate that the W3C writes their site in plain html + css. The fact that this is not even considered proves the these languages are so incredibly non ergonomic. I know.... it is an often reiterated point, but when it is the site of the W3C it really is very hard not to notice this....
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quantummkv超过 4 年前
The biggest issue I have with Gutenberg is the typing latency when you are editing a standard 6 paragraph blog post with 2-3 images. On my laptop I can actually see the latency while typing. Characters appear on the screen seconds after typing them like a slow motion reveal frequently used in school PowerPoint presentation by kids to to look cool.<p>It&#x27;s maddening to see this much latency while typing a bunch of plain text on a machine than can comfortably handle big Android Studio projects without any such latency issues. Modern web really is a dumpster fire.
momokoko超过 4 年前
Shameful.<p>As someone that has worked with Craft it has a ton of awful edge cases once you get deep into a project.<p>Craft absolutely does not scale.
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mattweinberg超过 4 年前
Hey all: we build a ton of websites in Craft and I&#x27;ve presented technical topics at their yearly conferences before. Happy to answer any technical or other questions about Craft here or via email, if anyone is curious to learn more.<p>In my opinion it&#x27;s a great CMS and a good choice for the W3C site. It&#x27;s content author-friendly, is also very developer-friendly and supports modern development&#x2F;SDLC processes. You&#x27;ll be pleasantly surprised if your only PHP-based CMS experience is with other CMSes.
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seanwilson超过 4 年前
Is there an open source CMS that people would recommended for use with a static website generator for large websites? Netlify CMS is interesting for example and I love how content changes are versioned in Git.<p>I like static website generation but don&#x27;t want to get locked into a proprietary CMS platform.
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ComodoHacker超过 4 年前
Huge credit to Craft team! A proprietaty product being chosen for so heavily open-source leaning project is a big win.<p>I&#x27;m bad at analogies, but it&#x27;s like a minority person took top position in a big company with strong discrimination culture in the XX century.
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ponker超过 4 年前
The W3C has to make accessibility priority #1 — commercial entities usually deprioritize accessibility so the W3C must lead by example.
vorpalhex超过 4 年前
Glad they realized the issues of Wordpress but a shame they went with proprietary nonsense with a faux license.<p>A php based platform has a lot of negatives for scalability. Using a cms to generate static content is much more simple, scalable and cheaper.<p>Keep it simple.
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helsinkiandrew超过 4 年前
&gt; The use of React complicates front-end build. We have very talented front-end developers, however, they are not React experts - nor should they need to be. &gt; I believe front-end should be built as standards-compliant HTML&#x2F;CSS with JavaScript used to enrich functionality where necessary and appropriate.<p>This is what worries me about React (and with other front end frameworks in general). I&#x27;m writing this as someone who choose Vue for their latest project.<p>Web pages started off being documents - electronic versions of printed typeset pages - and could often look very beautiful. A lot of React pages seem, to me, to look like a collection of components - like modern versions of VB forms - facebook&#x2F;twitter spring to mind etc.<p>There are a lot of very good HTML and CSS &#x27;coders&#x27; that aren&#x27;t developers, they come from more of a design background. Are they being disenfranchised by the modern frameworks? Will we end up making the web look less beautiful?
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stoolpigeon超过 4 年前
<i></i>Never mind - their contributing.md document makes clear it isn&#x27;t a FOSS project. ---------------<p>I wasn&#x27;t familiar with Craft. Looking at it they seem to have their own license and it seems pretty restrictive. Can anyone point to any existing discussions about the implications of the license and if it is truly open source?<p>I understand FOSS projects that have some kind of payment option, but I don&#x27;t understand how the code can be available but there is no way to run it without paying for it. The language of the license is also rather informal. As a layman it has an appeal to me but at the same time I&#x27;m wondering how some of those things are defined.
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_7gt4超过 4 年前
WordPress has some serious edge cases, and lots of stale issues in Core, many with patches that just go stale themselves.<p>If it isn&#x27;t prioritized by Automattic, it&#x27;s not getting in.<p><a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;core.trac.wordpress.org&#x2F;ticket&#x2F;32101" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;core.trac.wordpress.org&#x2F;ticket&#x2F;32101</a>
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digitalengineer超过 4 年前
Does anyone know why Drupal wasn’t considered?
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ollyjackson超过 4 年前
Technical director of a LAMP stack creative agency here. This write-up almost exactly mirrors our experiences across Wordpress, Drupal and Craft. I think they&#x27;ve made an excellent choice.<p>If anyone from studio24 is reading this we&#x27;ve developed a Craft plugin for Varnish purging etc that we&#x27;re using across multiple production deployments: <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;github.com&#x2F;Whitespacers&#x2F;Citrus" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;github.com&#x2F;Whitespacers&#x2F;Citrus</a>
paledot超过 4 年前
Given W3C&#x27;s emphasis on URLs as a permanent reference to content, I&#x27;m surprised they use a CMS at all. My next blog-ish project will be static HTML compiled from markdown. When I move on, so long as I keep paying for hosting, it&#x27;ll remain accessible at the original URL.<p>I don&#x27;t know of a proper CMS that behaves this way, but I confess I haven&#x27;t investigated the problem since it&#x27;s not a pressing one for me right now.
colourgarden超过 4 年前
For reference, here&#x27;s the list of CMS requirements put together by the team - <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;w3c.studio24.net&#x2F;docs&#x2F;cms-strategy-and-requirements&#x2F;" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;w3c.studio24.net&#x2F;docs&#x2F;cms-strategy-and-requirements&#x2F;</a>
somishere超过 4 年前
I kind of feel for these guys. This kind of project is the worst (massive, content&#x2F;maintenance-heavy website with many admin users .. urghh). And given that they are likely to be heavily scrutinized on whatever direction they take, I mean it&#x27;s pretty much lose lose (I really hope they are killer designers). That said, reading the blog post took me back to 2013 .. symfony&#x2F;PHP? If I was the W3C product manager I really wouldn&#x27;t be confident with the technical approach. It reeks of confusion, and appears to be relying on others for technical leadership. The W3C should be leading the way here. The approach should be something you write about and people go wow! They nailed it. At the moment it sounds like someone&#x27;s googled accessibility and is in the process of pushing high-contrast lemons through the orange peeler.
gassius超过 4 年前
I am almost sure this is not the case, but the article leave me with the impression that the author is not up to latest trends and paradigms. React, or any other modern front end framework, is not equivalent to SPA.
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lovetocode超过 4 年前
Am I the only one who hates the whole concept of a CMS? I much prefer just working HTML changes into a dev cycle. CMS encourages marketing and sales people to wreak havoc on your web experience. Working in HTML changes into the dev process also helps keep the engineering team aligned with the business&#x2F;marketing strategy. I use Middleman for generating static html websites and it works great. I would love to see the concept of a webmaster come back.
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userbinator超过 4 年前
<i>Please note this solution would not be reliant on JavaScript</i><p>Please choose it then, because it would be a sad day for the Web indeed if the W3C&#x27;s site turned into a horrible JS SPA like so many others unfortunately have. The W3C&#x27;s collection of standards is an important and prominent example of the document-centric-web, and keeping them as static pages that can be viewed with anything down to a text browser is definitely important for accessibility.
pythonbase超过 4 年前
What options do we have in Python world if someone wants to migrate CMS based sites built using WordPress ?
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trbfred超过 4 年前
Why did they not consider Pimcore? Other parts of their platform seem to be using Symfony too...<p>Could be either used as &quot;full CMS&quot; or as data source for a downstream static site generator...
sradman超过 4 年前
TL;DR: The W3C Redesign Project has selected Craft CMS over Wordpress.<p>From the <i>CMS strategy and requirements</i> document [1]:<p>&gt; At a minimum, it’s expected W3C will have 10-30 people editing content on a new CMS, though this may be more.<p>Why is the CMS used by the internal marketing team even under consideration for a web site redesign? This has the feel of busy work to me.<p>[1] <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;w3c.studio24.net&#x2F;docs&#x2F;cms-strategy-and-requirements&#x2F;" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;w3c.studio24.net&#x2F;docs&#x2F;cms-strategy-and-requirements&#x2F;</a>
conatus超过 4 年前
Massive props to Studio 24 for showing their working in public on all of this. It is amazing to see. More large scale projects of this kind should do this sort of thing.<p>Its really thrilling to see someone think technical decisions out loud. So keep it up, despite what I am about to type!<p>There are a couple of interesting things in this article.<p>1. It is absolutely remarkable they got 15 days to rather requirements and choose a CMS. Having worked in a couple of agencies, this is a lot of time, which is to the good W3C paid for it.<p>2.<p>&gt; We have very talented front-end developers, however, they are not React experts - nor should they need to be. I believe front-end should be built as standards-compliant HTML&#x2F;CSS with JavaScript used to enrich functionality where necessary and appropriate.<p>It makes a lot of sense for websites to be written in HTML&#x2F;CSS in this progressively enhanced way, but does it make sense for complex user interfaces like any WYSIWYG editor?<p>Even the Classic Editor basically dropped probably thousands of lines of (actually third party) Javascript into the mix in the form of TinyMCE.<p>3.<p>&gt; We won’t stop trying though and plan to do more R&amp;D with Gutenberg in the future. The W3C project, however, did not feel like the right place to do this. On a project as wide-ranging as this one, development time does become a factor.<p>This is about agency and project risk which is entirely fair enough. However, what is slightly strange, if risk of delivery due to unfamilar technology is a factor, is that the project then goes onto make two other decisions.<p>- Use Craft<p>- &quot;We are currently considering a Headless CMS option for front-end page delivery&quot;<p>It is unclear from this piece if they have much experience using Craft, but my project manager alarm bells are ringing a bit when a team is intending to &quot;deliver project in technology they have no internal expertise in&quot;.<p>Of course, Craft is by all accounts excellent, but could be a source of problems. The judgement is between the technical difficulty of using Gutenberg and learning a whole new CMS as a developer.<p>Further: the headless CMS option.<p>Do the team have the experience of doing this? Where I currently work we are actually considering moving back from headless CMS because the current leader in the field, Gatsby, has some pretty major downsides.<p>One of the reasons is that site build time is terrifically slow. Their approach seems to be roll our own headless thing with Symfony which will presumably do calls in real time. Symfony is very full-featured, but this seems like rolling your own headless framework - who is going to maintain it?<p>Of course it could be very simple, but launching a project in: an unknown CMS, with an unknown way of doing a website, seems a strange move when one object seems to be reduce technical risk.
ggm超过 4 年前
Is wp still php?<p>What if you want a cdn outcome which doesn&#x27;t drive to an sql backend?<p>I&#x27;ve yet to experience wp consciously without it making me wince. I know a lot of former print press is using it, so the for profit sector likes it. That does not axiomatically make it best of breed.<p>Being php is also not axiomatically worst of breed. The questions are decoupled really.<p>1) is wp still php<p>2) is wp best of breed.<p>3) if you want static site through cdn is wp the best fit?
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fevangelou超过 4 年前
Not a WP fan (although I&#x27;ve built large scale sites professionally) but the arguments regarding the frontend are kinda BS. What does Gutenberg have to do with the entire frontend layout? Gutenberg can still be used just for the main content region, not surrounding blocks. Not really a &quot;talented&quot; team after all.<p>Plus, UK dev companies tend to be biased towards Craft these days cause (guess why) it&#x27;s also UK based.<p>I also wonder how they got Statamic in the list (probably to dilute the argument for the need for a commercial CMS) and not the 2nd largest CMS in the world (Joomla).<p>All in all a pointless marketing article.
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