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Google staff rally behind fired AI researcher

166 点作者 boto3超过 4 年前

29 条评论

tmotwu超过 4 年前
It is unfortunate that way too many commenters on a prior threads dismissed her as a some twitter personality and trivialized her body of work in spite of the fact that she is well regarded and reputable in the ML community.<p>It&#x27;s becoming clear a rising number of her colleagues are in support of what she was seeking to publish. A reviewer on reddit mentioned the authors have plenty of time to make revisions if there were issues with the content. Not to mention, supposedly the internal reviewing processes are usually limited to the extent of sensitive disclosure and rarely the contents of the literature. Yet, emails from Google leadership seems to imply retraction was needed, providing very little reason.<p>The opaqueness of the internal feedback and expectations are highly suspicious and I was suprised to see no one bothered to question it. People have been bringing up the 2 weeks, yet internal Brain researchers have refuted that have never seen a policy like this excercised. It does appear as an attempt to suppress an important paper that was critical of another colleagues work (BERT) and the employer&#x27;s intended research goals. It&#x27;s similar to the kind of pushback Greenwald most recently received - yet the reactions here have been distinctly flipsidded - in support towards Google executives no less and unsympathetic to the researcher.
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king_magic超过 4 年前
After reading everything that has come out (e.g. her email) and her history of highly toxic Twitter behavior, I honestly can&#x27;t blame Google for accepting her resignation (she was <i>not</i> fired).
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pinewurst超过 4 年前
I&#x27;m tired of FAANG &quot;rallies&quot; where the numerator is such a small percentage of the denominator.<p>I bet one could get &quot;hundreds&quot; of Google employees to rally behind a flat earth and many more for the abolition of mayonnaise.
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contemporary343超过 4 年前
Google (and Google Brain in particular) benefited immensely from Gebru&#x27;s work, and her being affiliated with them. This can be seen in how often they (including Jeff Dean) pointed to her work to show they were taking questions of fairness and bias in AI algorithms seriously.<p>The flip side is that you have to respect the researcher, who frankly has more credibility than you do as an organization in this space.<p>Even to corporate researchers, demanding (through an HR procedure? bizarre) the researchers retract a paper without a discussion or an opportunity to revise it (which is still possible since the paper is only in review!) is highly unusual. To do that to a researcher whose work you loudly (and seemingly proudly) advertise, is insulting to them and the broader team they hired. And to do it over not citing literature? Unheard of and clearly indicative of something else going on. This seems like some kind of turf war.<p>You can read the abstract of the paper in question here - it is incredibly anodyne, though obviously does take a critical view of Google Brain&#x27;s work (BERT in particular); <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.reddit.com&#x2F;r&#x2F;MachineLearning&#x2F;comments&#x2F;k69eq0&#x2F;n_the_abstract_of_the_paper_that_led_to_timnit&#x2F;" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.reddit.com&#x2F;r&#x2F;MachineLearning&#x2F;comments&#x2F;k69eq0&#x2F;n_t...</a>
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defertoreptar超过 4 年前
I was wondering if anyone knew enough to clarify a couple of things from this part of Dean&#x27;s letter:<p>&gt; Unfortunately, this particular paper was only shared with a day’s notice before its deadline — we require two weeks for this sort of review — and then instead of awaiting reviewer feedback, it was approved for submission and submitted.<p>There seems to be something between the lines here. How was it approved for submission? Did Gebru or one of the other authors approve it? And if so, would that be unusual?<p>&gt; A cross functional team then reviewed the paper as part of our regular process and the authors were informed that it didn’t meet our bar for publication and were given feedback about why. It ignored too much relevant research — for example, it talked about the environmental impact of large models, but disregarded subsequent research showing much greater efficiencies. Similarly, it raised concerns about bias in language models, but didn’t take into account recent research to mitigate these issues. We acknowledge that the authors were extremely disappointed with the decision that Megan and I ultimately made, especially as they’d already submitted the paper.<p>Does this contradict what Gebru has said so far? Didn&#x27;t she say she wasn&#x27;t given any feedback?
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ogre_codes超过 4 年前
She quit. The reason she quit is legitimate, but it&#x27;s pretty clear that she quit here.<p>If you say &quot;I quit unless...&quot;, and they don&#x27;t agree to the conditions—you&#x27;ve quit. If I&#x27;m running a business, I certainly have no use for an employee who has quit under fairly unfriendly conditions. I definitely wouldn&#x27;t want someone who has quit spending another month or so using corporate resources for what is now their own personal agenda.<p>I don&#x27;t think Google is in the clear here either, but don&#x27;t I think calling her a fired AI researcher is realistic. The story here is an AI researcher quit because Google wouldn&#x27;t let her publish.
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unix_fan超过 4 年前
From what I’ve seen, it’s a pretty clear case of toxic workplace behavior. I’m not sure why the headlines are trying to be sympathetic.
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oh_sigh超过 4 年前
There should be a bare minimum percentage of a company that &quot;rallies behind X&quot; before news articles are written on the subject.<p>Google has just about 100,000 employees + 120,000 temps&#x2F;contractors. If hundreds - lets say 500 employees - sign something (aka click a button), currently we&#x27;re sitting at .2% of the company that feels a certain way.<p>What other petitions could you get .2% of the company to sign onto?<p>&quot;Google staff rally behind overthrowing the US government to create a Marxist utopia&quot;<p>&quot;Google staff rally behind mandatory veganism in the US&quot;<p>&quot;Google staff rally behind anti-vaxxers&quot;<p>etc
samizdis超过 4 年前
Statement posted by staff, signed by many Googlers and also academics, industry experts etc:<p><a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;googlewalkout.medium.com&#x2F;standing-with-dr-timnit-gebru-isupporttimnit-believeblackwomen-6dadc300d382" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;googlewalkout.medium.com&#x2F;standing-with-dr-timnit-geb...</a>
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steve_g超过 4 年前
Does anyone have a link to the paper she was fired over? I&#x27;ve spent some time searching with no luck.<p>I&#x27;d like to know what was technically controversial.
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cheese_van超过 4 年前
I don&#x27;t fully understand the controversy and so take neither side. However, as I started in IT in in 84, it is curious to me that workforce culture has changed so. I recall the dourly suited IBM guys, all in lockstep, sharing identities, so to speak. One&#x27;s role was well understood, and conforming to that role -conduct, performance, behavior- was very circumscribed and universally understood.<p>Criticizing one&#x27;s employer was possible within very defined circumstances, and always privately, but doing so in a public square was a sure route to termination. This seemed reasonable at the time.<p>Has the relationship of employee&#x2F;employer changed so?
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throwawaygoog7超过 4 年前
Contrarian view. Some of these points can individually be refuted. As an outsider, here’s what it looks like:<p>- you have an employee who (in her letter) hired attorneys to sue you. - you have an employee who was given an award for impact who openly mocks it and thinks it’s a joke, which detracts from culture - you have an employee who went on a Twitter tirade and send several pages of information teaching a leading person in your space how to apologize. Humiliating. - you have a paper of questionable quality that maybe needs more review and maybe doesn’t but at a minimum appears to be BERT related which could impact your business. It’s not unreasonable to want to look at it. - you have an employee whose tone is very aggressive. It seems reasonable you’d be apprehensive of working with her. It doesn’t seem googles point is to make a model that is biased towards any group, etc, so you should be on the same team? - you get a volley email which requires information (give me all the conversations you had) which could be used to publicly shame the head of a business unit (Jeff Dean) - the employee emails, says she’s going on vacation, and then expects you to be waiting for her when you get back<p>I don’t know. It’s probably mixed. But it seems she’s well respected and given significant leeway. If we strip race and sex from this (if you can do that, perhaps it ruins it, but this is why this is a throwaway): this seems like a very high drama employee. Let’s say there was no hidden bogey man and we take Jeff at his word: more time was needed to give comments on the paper. From there, a) either paper is fine and she submits. Obviously the initial publication space for which she missed the internal review deadline is out, or B) if the paper is not fine and Google makes reasonable points to improve the quality, you incorporate them, then it’s published, or C) if the paper is not fine, but Google is making bogus claims to surpress you because of (in this thought experiment) some racial bias or business model conflict, then you can escalate internally or leave or fight in the media.<p>The problem is you didn’t let a)&#x2F;b)&#x2F;c) play out. By jamming the list serve as a way to influence and over ride the internal system the employee is trying to circumvent the operation practice of the group and it undermines leadership. Note, I’m not claiming she is incorrect in her work being suppressed potentially. I’m just claiming if I was her manager my inner voice mental response would be: “shut the fuck up and stop being such a shit disturber. I was willing to work this out with you, even though you could have followed the normal process everyone else does, but now you created a company internal hurfuffle so I need to loop in MY manager (Jeff) and the last time you interacted with public exposure with someone of that high stature (the Twitter incident) you caused a highly abraisive outcome. Ugh. What do I do? Oh you resigned unless you publicly humiliate my boss? Yeah okay, let’s just accept that, I’m not being paid enough to baby sit you. I’m at Google brain to do ai research, not manage temper tantrums. Ok, so will talk to Jeff, tell the team you resigned to help you save face (which she spun btw, lol) and oh yeah we should probably shut off your devices to avoid more damage. This sucks. Ugh I wish that list serve and email to Jeff didn’t go out. “<p>That’s a jaded view. You can be potentially (or not) repressed and simultaneously an asshole. Would any of you want to work with someone like her? Who low key threatens your job or attempts to publicly humiliate you if she doesn’t get what she wants?<p>Note, using a throw away because it’s too scary to post this publicly. Because I can’t judge what the “public consensus” is (and it seems to be changing), I can’t tell if the above is a 1&#x2F;10 and like lunatic level, or 4&#x2F;10 and highly offensive, or maybe a 6&#x2F;10 and just highly insidious (by design). The bigger point is this incident shows how Twitter flames and self censor ship can perhaps make certain topics hard to discuss.<p>Sorry if this was offensive. But the “HR policy drone” view seems otherwise underrepresented.
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courtf超过 4 年前
Turns out, even Timnit Gebru, making ~500k a year researching AI ethics at Google, can still be fired.<p>Turns out, Google would feed each and every one of their employees, feet first, into a giant wood-chipper if that was the most cost-effective, legal way of disposing of them.<p>Turns out, the tech industry isn&#x27;t really all that structurally different than any other industry.<p>Ignore that pipe full of blood and guts y&#x27;all, none of those people were marginalized. Back to work!
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fasteddie超过 4 年前
It&#x27;s just wild to me that HN commenters are predominantly starting the timeline at her resignation ultimatum, and not what prompted it.<p>She was working on a known-to-all controversial research project, which was asked to be retracted via an anonymous feedback doc delivered via HR! That is a very screwed up thing to do. All reactions from her from that to me are totally justified.
temp667超过 4 年前
Do google employees actually do work or just rallies, protests and walkouts.<p>Seriously, google staff are walking out &#x2F; protesting &#x2F; rallying behind stuff every week. How can you afford to pay 120,000 folks who seem to be focused on being outraged, striking and walking out all the time.<p>I participated in a walkout ONCE when I was much younger, over an issue that was pretty clean cut (this was before me too, things had to go WAY WAY over the line - we&#x27;d call it a crime now - to get a walkout going). It was still a bit cheesy, but ...<p>Do I have this right - a google employee doing public attacks against other google staff &#x2F; how to apologize etc? And googlers want this kind of culture, where having a discussion get&#x27;s you social media blasted? It just seems these cultures are getting very unhealthy. Why do this all working for google?<p>Google must just have boatloads of cash to be able to afford this all. Do customers for GCP ever worry that some staff will protest what they are doing and take some kind of direct action?
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ccmcarey超过 4 年前
She put out ultimatums and said she&#x27;d resign if they were not met, and G accepted her resignation. That&#x27;s not a firing.
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cavisne超过 4 年前
It&#x27;s truly wild these extremists are trying to cancel Jeff Dean at this point.<p>If they succeed you should assume Google is dead, sell your stocks and backup your data.
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quattrofan超过 4 年前
That email she wrote is a jumbled almost unreadable mess and the moment &quot;micro aggressions&quot; was mentioned I turned off. There was a process, she went around it and lost her job. Not everything in life is bias, sometimes you are just an ass.
rasengan0超过 4 年前
Any lawyers care to comment? Looks like it works both ways <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;en.m.wikipedia.org&#x2F;wiki&#x2F;At-will_employment" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;en.m.wikipedia.org&#x2F;wiki&#x2F;At-will_employment</a>
vfclists超过 4 年前
Jeff&#x27;s response<p><pre><code> Hi everyone, I’m sure many of you have seen that Timnit Gebru is no longer working at Google. This is a difficult moment, especially given the important research topics she was involved in, and how deeply we care about responsible AI research as an org and as a company. Because there’s been a lot of speculation and misunderstanding on social media, I wanted to share more context about how this came to pass, and assure you we’re here to support you as you continue the research you’re all engaged in. Timnit co-authored a paper with four fellow Googlers as well as some external collaborators that needed to go through our review process (as is the case with all externally submitted papers). We’ve approved dozens of papers that Timnit and&#x2F;or the other Googlers have authored and then published, but as you know, papers often require changes during the internal review process (or are even deemed unsuitable for submission). Unfortunately, this particular paper was only shared with a day’s notice before its deadline — we require two weeks for this sort of review — and then instead of awaiting reviewer feedback, it was approved for submission and submitted. A cross functional team then reviewed the paper as part of our regular process and the authors were informed that it didn’t meet our bar for publication and were given feedback about why. It ignored too much relevant research — for example, it talked about the environmental impact of large models, but disregarded subsequent research showing much greater efficiencies. Similarly, it raised concerns about bias in language models, but didn’t take into account recent research to mitigate these issues. We acknowledge that the authors were extremely disappointed with the decision that Megan and I ultimately made, especially as they’d already submitted the paper. Timnit responded with an email requiring that a number of conditions be met in order for her to continue working at Google, including revealing the identities of every person who Megan and I had spoken to and consulted as part of the review of the paper and the exact feedback. Timnit wrote that if we didn’t meet these demands, she would leave Google and work on an end date. We accept and respect her decision to resign from Google. Given Timnit&#x27;s role as a respected researcher and a manager in our Ethical AI team, I feel badly that Timnit has gotten to a place where she feels this way about the work we’re doing. I also feel badly that hundreds of you received an email just this week from Timnit telling you to stop work on critical DEI programs. Please don’t. I understand the frustration about the pace of progress, but we have important work ahead and we need to keep at it. I know we all genuinely share Timnit’s passion to make AI more equitable and inclusive. No doubt, wherever she goes after Google, she’ll do great work and I look forward to reading her papers and seeing what she accomplishes. Thank you for reading and for all the important work you continue to do. -Jeff </code></pre> PS. I love Jeff so much I blogged him in the past - <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;bit.ly&#x2F;36FMHy9" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;bit.ly&#x2F;36FMHy9</a>
hintymad超过 4 年前
I&#x27;m curious why this is flagged. Isn&#x27;t this topic about tech culture and dynamics in both tech companies and tech communities, which is legit per HN&#x27;s guideline?
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dheera超过 4 年前
Ultimatums never work, and threatening to resign is never a good strategy (compared to either trying to amicably work things out OR just resigning).<p>However Google&#x27;s passive-aggressive response wasn&#x27;t terribly great either (&quot;We respect your decision to leave Google ... and we are accepting your resignation.&quot;)<p>It&#x27;s a firing packaged up as fake &quot;respect&quot;.<p>I wish both sides learned more about how to de-escalate situations.
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drewcoo超过 4 年前
Someone calling for a big corp to be ethical is branded toxic. Is this &quot;toxic&quot; the same thing that happened with &quot;literally&quot; a decade or so ago?<p>Just checking to make sure my lexicon&#x27;s up to date.
menomatter超过 4 年前
Can you share the leaked email?
apta超过 4 年前
Why is this such an issue? She was fired for making a tantrum, move on.
martamorena9182超过 4 年前
I mean she resigned. She put conditions on her staying at the company. By accepting her resignation, Google simply stated: &quot;We are not gonna comply with these conditions, therefore we accept your resignation&quot;.<p>Let&#x27;s focus the discussion around if that was a good or bad decision, to not comply with her conditions. She fired herself, there is no discussion around that.
echelon超过 4 年前
Companies can&#x27;t straddle the line. They&#x27;re either going to have to go all-in on diversity, inclusion, and politics, or they&#x27;re going to have to clamp down hard like Brian Armstrong.<p>Google needs to decide what it wants to be. Given its choices, I think it&#x27;s clear what they want. They just need to say it.<p>It&#x27;ll help employees and potential employees know if they want to work there.
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jannes超过 4 年前
Can we just finally say that Google is evil now?<p>Run as fast as you can. And take your data with you.
baccheion超过 4 年前
They&#x27;ve been cycling BS at least 10 years now since I left. Some should face the inescapable truth: no one cares. Another year and it&#x27;s the same BS without change. As is the plan.<p>At the advent of anything, it won&#x27;t matter. They&#x27;ll just be some place.<p>People want to work there still? Separate from just wanting to work (who wants to be unemployed)? Why? It was stupid to be that way as far back as 2003, as they had already IPO&#x27;d by then. Stupid like an idiot trying to buy once&#x2F;since a stock started to surge upward. Stupid. Anything after is in a class by itself.<p>I wonder how they are viewed among young people now. Both college students and those with 2 or so years of experience. Hmmm..<p>Maybe it&#x27;s still the same.