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How I Collected a Debt from an Unscrupulous Merchant

473 点作者 notadog超过 4 年前

55 条评论

stickfigure超过 4 年前
Geez. This article was hard to follow but... it sounds like the merchant is really screwing up. My SaaS business gets most of our users via an affiliate program, and many years ago I worked in porn where nearly all of our users from an affiliate program.<p>The #1 rule of affiliate programs is to treat affiliates like royalty. Or more accurately - business partners. Be clear about what you offer, be generous, and always resolve reasonable misunderstandings in their favor. A single good affiliate can make your business. A bad reputation will destroy it.<p>There are third party affiliate software systems that can help with trust, but they are all <i>terrible</i>. Nothing substitutes for just being trustworthy. This post is probably going to be top news in the &quot;keto affiliate community&quot; (which, even without checking, I already know to be a thing) and it will be a problem.
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noodlesUK超过 4 年前
The blog post he mentions <i>Identity Theft, Credit Reports and You</i> is a really good read that has surfaced on HN a couple times. If you haven’t read it, you should. The notion of simply being an organised professional being the most intimidating thing to bureaucracies is very true in my experience.<p><a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.kalzumeus.com&#x2F;2017&#x2F;09&#x2F;09&#x2F;identity-theft-credit-reports&#x2F;" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.kalzumeus.com&#x2F;2017&#x2F;09&#x2F;09&#x2F;identity-theft-credit-r...</a>
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ChrisMarshallNY超过 4 年前
I like the article. It presents the way that I believe we should all behave with each other in a professional environment.<p>Respect and Courtesy are important at all times (IMNSHO). Some folks seem to feel that being respectful is a sign of weakness, but cops are extremely respectful, as they explain to you why they will be writing a ticket for an eye-watering amount (at least, good cops are).<p>Many moons ago, when the domain market was still a “thing,” I had a broker offer to sell me a domain I wanted, and the price was extremely reasonable, so I took them up on it. It turned out that they actually were “leasing” it to me, and they wouldn’t transfer it to me.<p>I asked them, and they responded fairly aggressively, pretty much telling me to FO, and that I was “harassing” them (a legal term, really), by asking them to release the domain.<p>My response was fairly similar to the approach in the article, and I was able to get the domain. They were not very gracious about it, but I did get it, and we never needed to deal with each other again, after that.
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damethos超过 4 年前
I understand the fact that the author took the matter in his own hands and claimed what he was owed but this article is just another proof that instead of doing our jobs and spending our time more productively, we always need to play the &quot;lawyer&quot; and the &quot;detective&quot; because some people&#x2F;company always abuse their position of power. The author did manage to get his money, but at the same time pointed them a flaw (the affiliation page) in their little scheme, which means that he didn&#x27;t help protect anyone else that wants to start an affiliation with them. And yes, I understand that this is &quot;how the world works&quot; but still, I always get bothered by this kind of behavior. Maybe an alternative maybe, would have been to stood up by just ending the partnership and finding another company that treats its affiliations with more respect AND post the article in order for others to read the bad experience he had.
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ysleepy超过 4 年前
Luck played a role in this instance as well.<p>Having a representative admit to violating their own policy&#x2F;terms in writing is sort of a slam dunk.<p>The principle still applies though, good advice afaict.
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coupdejarnac超过 4 年前
I appreciate you actually naming the scumbags. It&#x27;s tiresome how people are overly diplomatic these days.
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leovander超过 4 年前
&gt; If they failed to pay, my plan was to file a complaint with the Federal Trade Commission and reach out to other affiliates suggesting they do the same.<p>Where do people get their info from to just go with a &quot;time to contact the FTC&quot;? If feels like the equivalent of people threatening they will contact the BBB.<p>Depending on the amount (that was $88 per the screenshot?), that is something you take to small claims court, you don&#x27;t even need a lawyer for that.
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kebman超过 4 年前
I&#x27;d say this depends on the situation you&#x27;re negotiating. If your only means of communication are e-mails, your best bet is to keep the line of communication open, and present data that builds a case that they cannot ignore without risking a (heavy) loss.<p>If, however, you participate in face-to-face negotiations, you open up a whole slew of other possibilities of influence only limited by your personality and personal morals. As an example, a CEO friend of mine told me that he&#x27;d always make sure to get really drunk the day before an important negotiation, so he&#x27;d be grumpy and mean when he finally sat down at the table. Let&#x27;s just say that his methods were in stark contrast to those promoted by Dale Carnegie.
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twodave超过 4 年前
I enjoyed the read. Side note: is it just me or is the Keto industry in general just like 99.5% criminals?<p>I’ve had my credit card stolen multiple times this year, and the thief has used my card to send ME keto pills I didn’t want. This makes the transaction more difficult to dispute and doesn’t benefit a common thief in any way. These companies are just a facade for criminal activity in my opinion, though I’ve been unable to concretely connect the dots.
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thewebcount超过 4 年前
I&#x27;ve had this happen and did something very similar. I purchased a Kardia EKG device for my spouse&#x27;s smart watch (before smart watches had them built in). The web page clearly stated that you could use the product without having an account. (My spouse and I are pretty vehement about not using any device that requires an account for no reason. Getting data from a device I own to my own watch should <i>not</i> require an account.)<p>They pointed out that their web page clearly states you will need an account. I was shocked because I always make sure to very carefully research this. So I went to the wayback machine on archive.org and looked at their page on the day I purchased, and sure enough, the language was not in there. They had added it a few weeks later.<p>I sent them screenshots and receipts, and they still pushed back. Finally I issued them an ultimatum. Refund us the money or I&#x27;ll do a chargeback and present my evidence to the credit card company. They immediately backed down and refunded us.<p>It is utterly insane that consumers need to take screenshots of every product page for products they buy in this day and age to not be screwed over.
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harrisonjackson超过 4 年前
I don&#x27;t know why the author didn&#x27;t reach out to the actual affiliate tracking company. As an engineer, as soon as I got push back from the retailer that is the first thing I would have done. That or start polling my readers to see if anyone had purchased through them. You already disclose you are an affiliate so asking your loyal audience if they made purchase (which if they clicked through they are knowingly supporting you) should have gotten some response.<p>I worked at rewardstyle (a fashion affiliate technology company) for nearly three years when it first launched and built out their instagram affiliate tool LikeToKnow.it as a side project with one other developer and a designer. We faced A LOT of mistrust and doubt from affiliates about earnings - sometimes valid and sometimes not.<p>There are so so so many ways that different retailers would invalidate earnings, break the tracking, the buyer would delete their cookies, buyer would get redirected from a us store to au or eu or other intl and have it not track, we&#x27;d miscalculate a payout somehow, ship some bugs, etc.<p>But we knew that we were in an industry that was looked at as pretty scummy so we did our best to always make things right and error on the side of generosity.<p>There were times where a retailer would break the commission tracking on their checkout page and we would know there were 1000 sales but wouldn&#x27;t be able to attribute them directly to a specific affiliate. We had to just do our best to extrapolate their earnings and add a &quot;sorry something broke&quot; bonus.
lixtra超过 4 年前
If it wasn’t for flexing your communication muscles I doubt the distraction and time spent was worth 88USD. Most reasonable would be to ditch after the first answer from the CEO. They will likely disappoint in the future.
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zebnyc超过 4 年前
I would like to second the recommendation for the referenced article by Patrick. Big kudos to patio11. 3 years back I had an issue go in my favor (for almost $2k) regarding a dispute with an auto body shop when I started asking them questions in a &#x27;professional&#x27; manner (for documentation purposes) and questioning regarding their processes that they were following. I used the article by Patrick as a template and and the auto body shop just folded on the case.
raviolo超过 4 年前
Respect and courtesy are nice but I think the reason this style is so effective is different. It makes the counterparty believe that you are collecting the paper trail to file a lawsuit. And <i>behaving</i> like you are preparing to file a lawsuit is much more effective than just claiming you will be filing a lawsuits.<p>I imagine that when presented with a choice of $88 payment or having to deal with a lawsuit, 100% of decision-makers will chose the former. And it’s not about the lawsuit outcome. Even if some complete garbage is filed which has no chance of success, the burden it creates on the business is clearly much higher than $88.
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jldugger超过 4 年前
Tough numbers to make work. A hundred referrals and 88 bucks owed is... not a life changing number. Far more interesting is the revenue inflection point, going from an ongoing relationship worth zero to one worth 700 bucks a year.<p>But... apparently still not worth keeping:<p>&gt; I’ve since removed all mention of Kiss My Keto, as I no longer have any interest in helping them earn money, regardless of what they pay me.<p>To me, it seems like the real story here might be that someone is selling bread for a 20 percent markup. Or maybe they aren&#x27;t, but have been able to make ends meet by stiffing referrals. The margins on groceries are typically small, which is borne out by Amazon&#x27;s 1 percent comission rate for the Grocery category. If someone comes along offering to 20x your income, skepticism is in order.<p>You can formalize that skepticism with a multi-armed bandit algorithm. Basically, put affiliate commissions into the feedback loop, picking which affiliate links to use by expected value. But it may take a while with low click through volumes.
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tleb_超过 4 年前
I wonder if this post is to +1 his number of articles on the first page, to sell his HN video course: <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;gumroad.com&#x2F;l&#x2F;htfphn&#x2F;hacker" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;gumroad.com&#x2F;l&#x2F;htfphn&#x2F;hacker</a>
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hydrogenbonds超过 4 年前
Given how much time you&#x27;ve wasted with this, my feeling is that overall you still lost. They owe you money for the time spent as well. Good on you for publishing this, but you should have mentioned their company name in the title, so that hopefully it show up in search engine results and this alerts others to not collaborate with them.
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dj_mc_merlin超过 4 年前
&gt; To put it bluntly, we are not paying you for your conversions<p>How did the CEO write this and not immediately ^H^H^H it? Could he really not think of a better phrasing than &quot;your conversions&quot;?
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noir_lord超过 4 年前
I got into a dispute with an electricity company (they later got fined for doing to me what they did to about a million customers...) and I used a similar approach, I kept been polite, firm and finishing everything with &quot;if you can&#x27;t resolve this matter, can you please refer me to someone who can&quot; and ended up talking to one of their directors.<p>Amazingly at that point the entire thing was resolved in less than a day and not only did they finally get the billing amount correct but they then waived it entirely.<p>I never had an issue with paying them what I owed the problem was their figure and mine didn&#x27;t match <i>and they kept screwing up the collection</i>.
ohashi超过 4 年前
Alec Fucking Mwali again?<p>Guessing it&#x27;s the same affiliate manager I documented here:<p><a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;reviewsignal.com&#x2F;blog&#x2F;2016&#x2F;04&#x2F;22&#x2F;dirty-slimy-shady-secrets-of-the-web-hosting-review-underworld-episode-1&#x2F;" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;reviewsignal.com&#x2F;blog&#x2F;2016&#x2F;04&#x2F;22&#x2F;dirty-slimy-shady-s...</a><p>Trying to get me to publish fake reviews about companies he represents. He also likes using fake &#x27;Re: BS subject that you never sent&#x27; tactic and claims it was a keyboard error.<p>Not surprising he&#x27;s continuing to work with shady companies.
JakaJancar超过 4 年前
I&#x27;ve probably had 10 such cases in the last 5 years: speeding tickets from countries I have not even driven to, medical services double-billed to both my insurance and credit card, ... all $100-300 range.<p>I&#x27;m confident I could probably recover most, but at this amount, I just don&#x27;t want to deal with it. It&#x27;s one of those cases where I wish I had a personal assistant. It makes me think there&#x27;s room for a &quot;consumer debt collector&quot; service with a revenue share model.
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skinkestek超过 4 年前
Inspiring!<p>Reminds me I have a bank and an insurance company to talk or rather write to.<p>They sold me insurance on my mortgage, then came up with new rules when my wife sadly needed it.<p>I was in a tight spot then so it ended up with my family having a boring time (cheaper food, Dad working more, less money to spend on toys, tickets etc - and we didn&#x27;t have to much in the first place).<p>Now I do have time and I do have money and I am tempted to give it a go. It should be something around $5000 (two months worth og salaries for my wife).
yholio超过 4 年前
Being very persistent and calm can go a long way when dealing with organizations in person: most customers, when confronted with a negative answer from a company representative will become irritated, frustrated and will want to terminate the exchange threatening to escalate to some higher authority, a boss (that is rarely available), the courts etc. It&#x27;s a negative emotional state that most people want to stop.<p>What you need to do in those circumstance is realize that you still have immense bargaining power with the specific individual, that can, according to company polices present you with a negative answer that is profitable to the company, but in all other respects is severely limited and must behave in a courteous and professional way. You need to reflect that back to them, and repeat your claims ad nausea, bringing more arguments and repeating your point of view with the utmost calm, as if nothing they say is relevant to your problem. Verbally, you state your claims and non-verbally you deliver the message that &quot;I can do this all day and will not leave until you drag me out with security, making a scene&quot;. You do not move away from the counter and&#x2F;or follow the employee calmly, non-threatening continuing to repeat your claims.<p>The frustration will build up even in the most seasoned customers representatives. All of a sudden, you are no longer the company&#x27;s problem - a lost or dissatisfied customer; you are THEIR personal problem, a persistent client that demands their rights and stops them from engaging with other customers. Should they make a scene and become rude or verbally or physically abusive, it&#x27;s their job on the line, for failing to properly handle a demanding client; but if they continue being calm and professional with you, they are failing to do their job and serve other customers. Many representatives will cave under this pressure, if what you are demanding is in their purview, or, a the very least, be very happy to rid themselves from you by producing an actual manager with the power to solve your claim (that would very rarely be disturbed otherwise).<p>I have successfully used this method to negotiate out of unscrupulous baggage fees at the airport, obtain discounts at advertised prices instead of the &quot;fine print prices&quot; etc. It&#x27;s a time-money tradeoff, as was this one here. The method is less efective over the phone where the representative has the power to terminate a call. In this case here one company official made a serious mistake by stating in writing something contrary to official company policies. You will usually not be that lucky in email exchanges with an unscrupulous company.
mtlynch超过 4 年前
Author here. Happy to answer any questions or take any feedback about this post.<p>I wrote it a few months ago and submitted it at the time[0], but it didn&#x27;t seem like it was a match for HN. I was quite surprised when I woke up to find a tweet from a friend letting me know it was on the front page.<p>[0] <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;news.ycombinator.com&#x2F;item?id=24144103" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;news.ycombinator.com&#x2F;item?id=24144103</a>
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ystad超过 4 年前
Very well done. Personally, I believe that resolving issues in a calm organized and firm way helps you as well.<p>I recall one of my bosses telling me if you want to fire off an angry response, close your computer and take a walk outside. This works, I would come back and write a calm but firm email. Angry responses typically do not help.<p>I typically hate responses on twitter
raz32dust超过 4 年前
How is there no better way to track conversions in a standard way by a third party? This whole win relies on the fact that the affiliate manager let out the real policy. She could have just said that there were no conversions, and the author would basically have no recourse?
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rexreed超过 4 年前
The OP is uncovering affiliate fraud and he agreed to settle for a small amount. Is this a victory? Is this even a debt?
jpswade超过 4 年前
This has worked for me in the past, especially for settling debts.<p>I adopted a mantra of &quot;remain professional&quot;, avoiding engaging with their emotional tantrum and escalating the situation, just sticking to the facts and explaining the situation to them and what needs to happen to reach a resolution.<p>It&#x27;s hard, because people get emotional, and you have to force yourself to detach from them attacking the thing you have built and want to defend and instead become very objective, robotic in nature, but it works.<p>It&#x27;s not for the light hearted but sometimes this is what it takes to get paid.
sneak超过 4 年前
Added (small) side-effect from this post, as a keto person who loves Patrick’s advice: now I know never to give the Kiss My Keto assholes a dime, via your site or anyone else’s.
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onetimemanytime超过 4 年前
Being on front page of Hacker News is priceless for his reputation too :)
sengstrom超过 4 年前
The numbers are small but I can see the satisfaction in picking an approach and sticking to it. Thanks for the write-up.
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simonebrunozzi超过 4 年前
&gt; I intentionally steered the conversation away from stats, as I had no way to prove anything about Kiss My Keto’s internal sales numbers,<p>Well, the author could have used one affiliate link to visit Kiss My Keto and make a purchase. That way, he would have had proof that at least ONE converted.
davewritescode超过 4 年前
Personally I’ve found that when someone does you completely wrong by doing something as egregiously bad (i.e. fraud) you can certainly find success being a huge asshole about it. Most people do not like being on the receiving end of justified berating and will do almost anything to make it stop. Sometimes starting off being an asshole and letting yourself be talked down creates a window for a quick agreement. It’s not a nice way to deal with things and some people aren’t always comfortable being the “bad guy” but it is effective with certain personalities.<p>The most important part of this article is that the author was right and had proof. The way in which he conducted himself was likely inconsequential but writing an article about being a dick and getting what you want won’t generate clicks.
gogopuppygogo超过 4 年前
Having recently tried to integrate the Walmart affiliate API from Impact.com I&#x27;m not surprised. These affiliate programs are a mess. Impact seems to be trying to make it cleaner but their own system is a mess.<p>Too bad as well, affiliate programs could be a much better way to monetize than advertising revenue.
m3at超过 4 年前
&gt; Sometimes it works, and sometimes it doesn’t, but I always find it to be the least stressful way of addressing disputes.<p>This make it very valuable to me. Resolving disputes can quickly become stressful, especially when as an engineer you rarely have to do so with customers.
guyu96超过 4 年前
Kudos to the author for getting the money back, but it seems affiliates have very little leverage. Since there&#x27;s no independent verification of sales data, affiliates have to take the vendor&#x27;s word for it when it comes to conversion rates.
utopcell超过 4 年前
The Organized Professional Method is even capitalized, to make it appear as if it&#x27;s a thing. Part of the process, no doubt, except the target group for this is the article&#x27;s readers.
YuccaGloriosa超过 4 年前
I was thinking what a straight up bloke the author was. Then I got to the end of his blog, to read....Hey &quot;Get to the top of HN, here&#x27;s how&quot;... ...meh
nondeveloper超过 4 年前
The “organized professional” tone reminds me of patio11’s post on dealing with banks and credit reporting agencies when disputing: <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.kalzumeus.com&#x2F;2017&#x2F;09&#x2F;09&#x2F;identity-theft-credit-reports&#x2F;" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.kalzumeus.com&#x2F;2017&#x2F;09&#x2F;09&#x2F;identity-theft-credit-r...</a><p>He also invoked the “professional” archetype.<p>&gt; “Angry people demand; professionals ‘require.’”
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MeinBlutIstBlau超过 4 年前
This whole article read like an undisputable libel piece to name and shame a company.<p>Also, if a company tries to give me that run around once, why would I ever bother repping their products ever again? Also...it was $80. I do realize it can buy a decent amount of stuff but the amount of work and time this guy spent writing emails about this, he would&#x27;ve been better off black listing them.
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londons_explore超过 4 年前
If I were the CEO of any company and a customer emailed me very angry with an even vaguely plausible complaint, and then let me know that $88 would resolve the issue... I&#x27;d just pay it!<p>Don&#x27;t make enemies over $88!<p>If it was $88k, then I&#x27;d treat it differently... Or if it was 1000 customers who have copy pasted the same email hoping to collect $88...
JumpCrisscross超过 4 年前
&gt; <i>I had no evidence to prove any of my readers purchased something</i><p>Well there goes your leverage. Is this common in the content game?
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hnarn超过 4 年前
It&#x27;s pretty amazing to me that this is considered a &quot;method&quot;. This is the way I have communicated with anyone that I don&#x27;t have a personal relationship to in my entire life. I&#x27;m surprised it would be seen as some kind of &quot;life hack&quot;.
smsm42超过 4 年前
Looks like KMK just tried to cheat hoping that nobody would make much of a fuss over a hundred bucks or so. And they are probably right in enough cases to make it worth it. If occasionally somebody does make a fuss, they just pay up the hundred bucks and still aren&#x27;t worse than before.
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simonebrunozzi超过 4 年前
&gt; Patrick McKenzie wrote a blog post called “Identity Theft, Credit Reports, and You.&quot;<p>This one mentioned in the article is one of the best blog posts ever written, IMHO. I re-discover and re-read it every ~2 years.
fareesh超过 4 年前
Is there no intermediary third party service which will allow advertisers and websites to register their arrangement and track conversions? Sounds like an obvious product idea. What am I missing?
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greenkey超过 4 年前
I like this post but “unscrupulous merchant” seems harsh for a company that may have changed their policies and didn’t realize they had to inform the referring agent of those changes.<p>It’s not uncommon for policies to change; that initial marketing spiel for bringing agents aboard doesn’t look like a contract.<p>The reselling agent probably didn’t have a case here, and the merchant went out of their way to assist when presented with a good argument.<p>So, this is less about the “unscrupulous merchant” and more a warning to businesses to be clear and contractual with your policy and policy changes in order to avoid PR disasters like this.
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Scoundreller超过 4 年前
I wonder if the merchant is sneaking any gluten into their “bread”.<p>Edit: extra carbs I mean. Getting my diets confused here.
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m3kw9超过 4 年前
Basically talk like a lawyer and an accountant, and it may get their attention
chaostheory超过 4 年前
This reminds me of Amazon Smile. I wonder if it affects payouts to referrers?
redelbee超过 4 年前
My summary of this article in terms of good and evil:<p>- Kiss My Keto unsuccessfully tries to set up an affiliate program that doesn’t eat too much margin and is still equitable to the affiliates (I believe they are doing their best to be a force for good until proven otherwise)<p>- Mr. Lynch gets involved and finds out the program he thought he was joining is actually not as it seems, so he reaches out to Kiss My Keto to resolve things equitably (again, I believe people are doing their best to be a force for good until proven otherwise)<p>- Kiss My Keto initially balks but then realizes they weren’t being fair and does everything they can to resolve the problem (still a force for good)<p>- Mr. Lynch then publicly blogs about the issue from a one-sided perspective and paints an unflattering image of Kiss My Keto. He also drafts hard on someone who actually writes useful content instead of creating something useful on his own (now he’s a force for evil)<p>- Mr. Lynch also uses the blog as an opportunity to sell a course about how to get to the front page of HN while appealing to his authority on the matter since he has written articles that made it to the front page 17 times (more evil territory)<p>If this is what it takes to get to the front page of HN maybe I should spend way less time here. This guy wasted everyone’s time with bad intentions.<p>He could have legitimately wanted to help Kiss My Keto, which would have strengthened their relationship and potentially led to gains for both parties. Instead he wasted their time for a completely insignificant payoff. Seriously, if your site is getting 100k visits a month and you’re scraping the bottom of the barrel for $88 you are doing something wrong or evil. Then he tells everyone else the story and makes himself the hero and Kiss My Keto the villain. That’s what they got for their seemingly good intentions and $88. So evil on Mr. Lynch’s part.<p>He could have thought of his own framework instead of drafting off Patrick McKenzie‘s ideas and twisting them to fit his selfish goals. Instead he practiced a bit of intellectual thievery and didn’t even further the discussion by adding anything useful. Evil again.<p>He could have made this story valuable to readers by giving us tools to live a better life, like Patrick McKenzie did with his article. Instead he extorts us for money to learn his “proven” process for gaming his way onto the front page despite having nothing useful to say and wasting everyone’s time. Major evil.<p>To be clear, I want more good in the world and less evil. If everyone acted like this guy the world would be terrible. Don’t be like this guy.<p>Am I missing something? Why did this make it to the front page and why do people seem to actually like this article and find it useful? Are we all that terrible?
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tedchs超过 4 年前
tldr, the author sent a couple emails to recoup $88 from a mismanaged affiliate program. Not exactly &quot;hacker news&quot; front-page material.
kova12超过 4 年前
It is a hell lots of work for 88 bucks. Amount of work spent writing emails, analyzing data, coming up with strategy - it comes down to pretty low hourly wage...
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ChicagoDave超过 4 年前
Sadly this doesn’t work when the millionaire startup owner pulls funding and never pays the $90k they owe you.<p>Dumb article.
effingwewt超过 4 年前
The article is just more affiliate spam, he even links to his &#x27;how to get to front page of HN&#x27;.<p>The article is all over the olace and buried near the end is the book he got the &#x27;solution&#x27; from.<p>A correct title would be &#x27;how book&#x27; X&#x27; helped me recover funds&#x27;<p>But that wouldn&#x27;t earn him mlre affiliate spam. Get bent dude.
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