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'Havana syndrome' likely caused by directed microwaves – US report

219 点作者 kpetermeni超过 4 年前

25 条评论

boomboomsubban超过 4 年前
Reposting from an earlier post.<p>Here&#x27;s a pair of twitter threads detailing why this seems like unsubstantiated nonsense, one posted after this was announced and one with access to the report.<p><a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;mobile.twitter.com&#x2F;weinbergersa&#x2F;status&#x2F;1335096557079842817" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;mobile.twitter.com&#x2F;weinbergersa&#x2F;status&#x2F;1335096557079...</a><p><a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;mobile.twitter.com&#x2F;weinbergersa&#x2F;status&#x2F;1335304431756341248" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;mobile.twitter.com&#x2F;weinbergersa&#x2F;status&#x2F;1335304431756...</a><p>Just a ton of hot air blown for no purpose
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xxpor超过 4 年前
I don&#x27;t get the physics of how it could possibly be a microwave weapon.<p>Microwaves (mostly) just heat things up. Even the area denial &quot;giant microwave generator&quot; on a truck weapons simply make you feel like you&#x27;re burning up. How could they possibly find a frequency or modulation that<p>A) Only affects the brain<p>B) Isn&#x27;t stopped by exterior walls<p>C) Doesn&#x27;t cause heating effects on the rest of the body (and everything else around you, or at least between you and the source of the radiation)<p>D) Isn&#x27;t incredibly obvious when it&#x27;s sitting around. Either this would have to be fairly high power, i.e. physically large, or it would have a high gain antenna (also large). If the power is low, it&#x27;d have to be close to the victim, like in the same room. The other problem is how do you hide the antenna? It can&#x27;t sit in a van because the metal exterior would attenuate it.
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throwaway4good超过 4 年前
Exactly what is the evidence of this directed microwave weapon?<p>As far as I can see there is absolutely none. A list of symptoms, based on interviews and self-reporting, no clinical measurement of any kind. And report that speculates on a cause in east and west.<p>Nothing beyond that.<p>The professionals signing off on this really should think carefully whether they are being used for political purposes.
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rhodo超过 4 年前
Here&#x27;s the NAS report<p><a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;embed.documentcloud.org&#x2F;documents&#x2F;20420409-nas-assessment-of-illness-of-us-government-employees-and-their-families-at-overseas-embassies&#x2F;?embed=1&amp;title=1" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;embed.documentcloud.org&#x2F;documents&#x2F;20420409-nas-asses...</a>
jstarfish超过 4 年前
&gt; Staff and some of their relatives complained of symptoms ranging from dizziness, loss of balance, hearing loss, anxiety and something they described as &quot;cognitive fog&quot;. It became known as &quot;Havana syndrome&quot;.<p>These symptoms are also present in everything from Lyme disease to minor&#x2F;asymptomatic COVID. They are also associated with positional vertigo.<p>Unless US intelligence knows something they have not shared, I don&#x27;t see the &quot;sonic attack&quot; angle. We don&#x27;t know what happened, we don&#x27;t know what caused it, but it&#x27;s an embassy, so it <i>must</i> be the fault of spies?<p>Suppose someone left a fork in their container while reheating their lunch in a microwave with a failing magnetron. It <i>is</i> an embassy-- suppose a bug interfered with a jammer. Suppose any other freak occurrence occurred that would emit this sort of energy.<p>Literally anything that disrupts the inner ear calcium deposits could produce these symptoms. Sound vibration or changes in air pressure could do it too. It happens to people who don&#x27;t work at the US embassy in Cuba too, but that results in a vertigo diagnosis instead of accusations of theoretical attacks by unknown adversaries for unclear purpose.<p>The Russians studied this sort of thing 50 years ago? Ok. But what is the connection to the current political relationship between the USSR and Cuba? Why apply 50-year-old research--now--in Cuba, specifically? Why not test this on a control group that would not put the attacker in-scope of US intelligence? We will look like idiots if this turns out to be an intern fooling around with a directional microphone they found while cleaning out a supply closet.<p>Sure, something happened in Cuba that produced these symptoms in a group of people. But fuck me, if anything the mass hysteria seems to be coming more from US intelligence than the actual victims.
ipunchghosts超过 4 年前
I thought this was shown to be from pesticides.<p><a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.sciencedaily.com&#x2F;releases&#x2F;2019&#x2F;10&#x2F;191003111753.htm" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.sciencedaily.com&#x2F;releases&#x2F;2019&#x2F;10&#x2F;191003111753.h...</a>
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rendall超过 4 年前
What would the purpose be? I can&#x27;t imagine a motive or a rational end goal. Would it be in the hopes that sickened diplomats could cause an incident that the hosting country could exploit in some way? I&#x27;m not saying that countries always act rationally, I just don&#x27;t see what could be gained by doing this. Petty sadism?
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Cieplak超过 4 年前
Wonder if the nefarious party used magnetrons or masers to carry out the attack. Guessing magnetrons given that this seems very similar to other documented cases [1] before the development of room-temperature solid-state masers.<p>[1] <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov&#x2F;pmc&#x2F;articles&#x2F;PMC3509929&#x2F;" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov&#x2F;pmc&#x2F;articles&#x2F;PMC3509929&#x2F;</a>
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ypzhang2超过 4 年前
Anecdotally, this has happened in a lot of different places than just Cuba.<p>This article goes into in-depth detail on one particular person&#x27;s experience:<p><a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.gq.com&#x2F;story&#x2F;cia-investigation-and-russian-microwave-attacks" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.gq.com&#x2F;story&#x2F;cia-investigation-and-russian-micro...</a>
nimbius超过 4 年前
Occhams razor: A magic weapon is causing brain damage for every diplomat in a country that, conveniently, happens to be on the presidents short list of evil places he does not like.<p>or<p>After taking office in 2016 the president sought to roll back the cuban thaw and needed a convenient pretext.<p>suspiciously this weapon was never deployed against a single person at Guantanamo bay.
goodcanadian超过 4 年前
A much earlier thread with a much more plausible explanation (in my opinion): <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;news.ycombinator.com&#x2F;item?id=21017914" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;news.ycombinator.com&#x2F;item?id=21017914</a><p>Having briefly lived in the Caribbean, I can confirm this kind of fumigation for mosquitos is common. The time period matches the Zika virus outbreak when even more fumigation than usual might have been done . . . it certainly was in Grenada where I was living at the time.
fsflover超过 4 年前
<a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;news.ycombinator.com&#x2F;item?id=25322040" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;news.ycombinator.com&#x2F;item?id=25322040</a>
bjourne超过 4 年前
Here is a HN thread about the subject from last year: <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;news.ycombinator.com&#x2F;item?id=18837561" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;news.ycombinator.com&#x2F;item?id=18837561</a><p>&gt; A 2019 US academic study found &quot;brain abnormalities&quot; in the diplomats who had fallen ill, but Cuba dismissed the report.<p>BBC writes that &quot;Cuba dismissed the report&quot; but failed to mention that many others did too:<p>&gt; The latest brain scans may provide fresh evidence of some injury, but the study was not without critics and some researchers have questioned whether there was any kind of attack at all.<p>&gt; “Finding evidence of brain change doesn’t provide evidence of brain injury or damage,” said Dr. Jon Stone, a professor of neurology at the Centre for Clinical Brain Sciences at the University of Edinburgh, who was not involved in the study.<p>&gt; Dr. Sergio Della Sala, a professor of human cognitive neuroscience also at the University of Edinburgh, in an email called the study “half baked.”<p>&gt; He noted that 12 of the affected workers who had a history of concussion prior to going to Cuba were included in the analyzes. “In comparison, none of the controls declared previous brain injury. This in itself could cause statistical group differences,” Della Sala said.<p><a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;nationalpost.com&#x2F;news&#x2F;world&#x2F;scans-show-changes-to-brains-of-injured-havana-u-s-embassy-workers" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;nationalpost.com&#x2F;news&#x2F;world&#x2F;scans-show-changes-to-br...</a><p>The microwave thingy is just so far-fetched. If such a weapon exists, wouldn&#x27;t the US intelligence agencies already have developed it? Sounds implausible that China, Cuba, and presumably also former Soviet states, would have access to this super-sneaky microwave weapon but not the US.
jlmorton超过 4 年前
I find it interesting that that Havana Syndrome has been experienced by American and Canadian embassy officials in multiple outposts, but apparently no other NATO allies.<p>One thing Americans and Canadians have in common is that we&#x27;re both English-language readers who consume much of the same media.
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rlt超过 4 年前
I wonder if embassies now have equipment to monitor for this type of thing. It seems like it should be easy to detect.
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Jenda_超过 4 年前
I&#x27;d expect embassy in a potentially &quot;hostile&quot; country would have basic detectors for common suspects - ionizing radiation, ultrasound, strong EM waves, common toxins etc. Especially once the suspicion is there: detecting microwaves that are strong enough to cause biological effects isn&#x27;t hard (wideband antenna, detector. The energy density must be immense), even outside of the main beam - it will scatter all around.
sakopov超过 4 年前
Recording of “sonic attacks” on U.S. diplomats in Cuba spectrally matches the echoing call of a Caribbean cricket [1]<p>[1] <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.biorxiv.org&#x2F;content&#x2F;10.1101&#x2F;510834v1" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.biorxiv.org&#x2F;content&#x2F;10.1101&#x2F;510834v1</a>
zrav超过 4 年前
A more personal account: <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.gq.com&#x2F;story&#x2F;cia-investigation-and-russian-microwave-attacks" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.gq.com&#x2F;story&#x2F;cia-investigation-and-russian-micro...</a>
alavesto超过 4 年前
This HN discussion is pretty worthless.<p>&quot;It&#x27;s not peer reviewed,&quot; &quot;I didn&#x27;t read the paper and I don&#x27;t know much about microwaves but I personally don&#x27;t think microwaves work that way&quot;, &quot;But I read something else about pesticides two years ago.&quot;<p>Anyone want to read the paper and respond to it instead of racking their brains for weird meta-arguments?
Animats超过 4 年前
How could a strong microwave beam not have been detected? It&#x27;s not hard. Just clip a multimeter across a diode and see if it detects anything. You can buy microwave leakage detectors, but that&#x27;s all they really are. Embassies are routinely swept for much lower power RF emitters.
neom超过 4 年前
I&#x27;d love to know how we went from it being a neurotoxin to it being a microwave: <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.cbc.ca&#x2F;news&#x2F;canada&#x2F;havana-syndrome-neurotoxin-enqu-te-1.5288609" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.cbc.ca&#x2F;news&#x2F;canada&#x2F;havana-syndrome-neurotoxin-en...</a>
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tt433超过 4 年前
I still think cicadas are more likely than malevolence
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mensetmanusman超过 4 年前
Your home router is emitting 0.1 Watt of 2.4 GHz radiation, your microwave uses the same frequency at 1000W.<p>Overheating your brain with 10000W nanosecond GHz pulses could have very strange health effects.
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pcdoodle超过 4 年前
And this folks is why we demand full transparency and power consumption firewalls on any new transmitting infrastructure being deployed in in the USA.
sudoaza超过 4 年前
They are also hiding the Iraqui weapons of mass destruction.