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84% of Waterloo Software Engineering undergrads move to the US upon graduation

88 点作者 gabbo超过 4 年前

17 条评论

mlex超过 4 年前
As someone who graduated from Computer Science at Waterloo, this is common for anyone with the ability to do so. Pay is not competitive in Canada, and contrary to the common refrain here, taxes/rent/general CoL does NOT make up for this, not even close.
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triceratops超过 4 年前
Gotta pay more money to keep the talent. This isn&#x27;t rocket science.<p>The crazy thing is Canada has so many advantages that should make paying higher salaries easier. University is cheaper, so people don&#x27;t have as much (or any) student debt. Healthcare is cheaper for companies to provide - since they generally only have to offer supplemental coverage. And so on.
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afinlayson超过 4 年前
I&#x27;ve been in the USA for 12 years because of the pay difference, and job perks. I&#x27;d move back, but I&#x27;m married and have a family now.<p>The biggest stress down here is the healthcare and the immigration status, if you are at a stable enough company these aren&#x27;t an issue, I&#x27;m lucky I only had 1 startup fail and cause me months of stress as I tried to fix those issues.
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michaelmior超过 4 年前
As a Waterloo CS grad who moved to the US, I&#x27;d say while I am quite happy here and have no plans to leave, all else being equal, I probably would have preferred to stay in Canada. In fact, we had a faculty member who moved to Canada from the US and was somewhat shocked to hear I accepted a faculty position in the US because dealing with funding here is much more painful than in Canada.
jacques_chester超过 4 年前
As an Australian living in the US, I understand the dynamics. Canadians and Australians have special access to the US labour market, most of the high-prestige work is happening here...<p>and the pay is much, <i>much</i> better.
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armSixtyFour超过 4 年前
It&#x27;s not too surprising. They pay is better and there are more opportunities for more interesting work. I didn&#x27;t go to Waterloo, but I&#x27;ve met a number of other Canadians who, not unlike myself, made the move south. That being said I do miss living in Canada sometimes, just not enough to take a two thirds paycut.
jpambrun超过 4 年前
My first real job 5 years was remote for a US company working from home from Montreal. I made about 120k USD which is pretty high for Montreal.<p>I am still working remotely, but for a multinational with offices in Canada. I manage to keep my US-like compensation by pointing out that with remote work there is very little frontiers and that the market is now global. This was pre-covid.<p>I imagine this new reality will drive pay down in the US and up in Canada.
nine_zeros超过 4 年前
As a person who&#x27;s had the pleasure of working with many who&#x27;ve worked hard to build excellent products and thus raise all our incomes and stocks, you are welcome.<p>I understand this is not great for Canada but as an American I cannot complain.
jdmg94超过 4 年前
I’m glad they all went south, I immigrated to Canada and it didn’t took me long to get a 6-figure job, its not Silicon Valley salary but I’m not paying 5k in rent either ¯\_(ツ)_&#x2F;¯
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pmdulaney超过 4 年前
Could it be that a lot of these young, bright folks would just rather live in the US, and getting a valuable degree enabled them to do what they&#x27;ve wanted to do for some time?
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jchallis超过 4 年前
We welcome our Canadian brothers and sisters with open arms. My cofounder came from Waterloo and together we built a good company with good jobs here in the US.
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td6339超过 4 年前
Other than those who have left Canada for the US and a few other small circles, the preference for Canada&#x27;s best talent to leave for the US and the dramatic difference in career prospects doesn&#x27;t get a lot of discussion in public discourse.<p>I believe in part it&#x27;s because doing so would force us to publicly confront the uncomfortable truth that when it comes to ambition, creativity, and grit, Canadian companies don&#x27;t employ the A-team. There are exceptions, but they mostly get the B&#x2F;C players. Some broad generalizations are below, but I&#x27;ve worked in the tech industry for 20 years across multiple US&#x2F;Canadian cities and in my experience they hold up.<p>Broadly speaking, you can split Canadian tech worker employers into a few categories:<p>1) Big, noncompetitive, unambitious, staid large companies making decent money via rent extraction in the Canadian market. Often times &quot;by Canadians, for Canadians&quot;. They&#x27;re minimally innovative and have largely incremental growth prospects, but because they have pricing power over their customers they subsist by turning the screws on customers and tweaking to control costs. They don&#x27;t grow productivity or produce consumer&#x2F;market surplus. With a few exceptions, they don&#x27;t compete abroad (either they do and they&#x27;re bit players, or they don&#x27;t but we know they&#x27;d get creamed).<p>2) Small&#x2F;medium sized Canadian companies. There are some genuinely interesting ones here but honestly, most don&#x27;t even theoretically have a shot at hitting really big. There are a ton of small&#x2F;medium sized niches with increasing venture funding, and that&#x27;s great. But they are just never going to be large or profitable enough to compete with deep-pocketed US employers for the best talent. They&#x27;ll end up successfully extracting rents from a niche or become the branch office of a US company. If you listen to the Canadian business&#x2F;tech press we&#x27;re on the cusp of a major breakout here, but we&#x27;ve been undeservedly pumping this narrative for almost as long as Torontonians have been the only ones in the world pumping the city as &quot;world-class&quot;. Is 2021 the year Hootsuite will finally become a unicorn? (spoiler: no).<p>3) Shopify. They&#x27;re special (relative to the rest of Canada) because they&#x27;re a high-growth business in a huge, scalable, global market. Unlike #1 their industry isn&#x27;t protected, so they actually need to compete on merit and generally do. They&#x27;re recently profitable, but not that profitable.<p>4) Canadian satellite offices of US tech companies (some highly profitable, some highly ambitious, and some just there for skilled labour on the cheap). They mostly skim the cream off the top of the local labour markets, paying much better than #1, #2, and usually #3. They also bring skilled talent in from abroad, particularly those with trouble clearing US immigration.<p>The entrepreneurial A-team generally leaves to start businesses in the US. Canada is too small for them and the environment frankly seems to clip their wings.<p>The non-entrepreneurial A-team will move to the US to 2-3x their salary and 10x their personal growth (since they&#x27;re now surrounding themselves with the A-team), which they can do because US immigration is a non-issue for most Canadians in tech thanks to NAFTA. Or they&#x27;ll stay in Canada and work for either #4 or Shopify, since those are the best jobs. This is really hard to overstate. Anecdotally, from tech people in my social&#x2F;professional network, with 1 exception the best people are either in the US or work for US companies from Canada.<p>The B-team works for #2 (who only pays enough to attract the B-team, so it&#x27;s self-fulfilling) and can still do well for themselves, but it&#x27;s a very different world. Slower-moving, less excitement, less growth.<p>The C-team works for #1. They&#x27;re the ones who work on billing systems at Bell, keep the lights on at BMO, maintain inventory management systems for Metro, or are perhaps involved with government contracting at IBM&#x2F;Accenture.<p>#1 are highly politically influential oligopolies. #2 captures a lot of mindshare and (in)direct subsidy (&quot;X is the next Shopify!&quot;). Neither want Canadian tech workers to become more expensive, and they all resent having to compete with #4.<p>You see this once you look for it. Toronto&#x27;s Amazon HQ2 bid was run by Ed Clark, former CEO of TD. Part of his pitch was that Toronto software engineers were 30% cheaper than in other markets (if you’re a software engineer who can work for Amazon, 30% is a significant underestimate). Not because of health care. Because of wages. All the while, local tech employers complained about how difficult it would be for them to compete against Amazon for talent. This got a fair bit of press and no one with voice in Canadian public life is willing to fight back. An industry and culture that complains about the presence of competition is not an industry which will stimulate the growth of competitive businesses.<p>So US companies continue to quietly be the first choice for Canada’s best. Everyone else makes do with what’s left behind.
kgin超过 4 年前
Why are SWEs paid so much less in Canada vs US?
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908B64B197超过 4 年前
I&#x27;m curious what the data looks like for the last 4 years.<p>I recall some clickbait articles about how websites to immigrate to Canada were flooded during election night, and commentators speculating that US academia and tech sector were doomed by the incoming administration.<p>It would be interesting to see if these predictions held true. Was there a notable change during the last 4 years?
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thenoblesunfish超过 4 年前
Why is this notable? Canada and the US are friendly neighbors and quite similar (from the perspective of the privileged types of people getting these jobs) and the US is bigger so you’d expect there to be more jobs there.
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djohnston超过 4 年前
I left the US to explore living abroad but the paycut really hurt. It&#x27;s funny too because in my experience the quality of engineering in Europe is higher, but the market is so uncompetitive.
scruffyherder超过 4 年前
Well they don’t have RIM to flock to anymore.
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