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The Endless Browser Wars

92 点作者 lazycrazyowl超过 4 年前

23 条评论

jillesvangurp超过 4 年前
This post omits a few &#x27;truths&#x27; to push an argument that is simply not there.<p>1) chromium is used by several other browsers: Edge, Brave, Opera, and probably a whole range of niche browsers I don&#x27;t know about. Most of these, probably don&#x27;t rely on Google provided services (I imagine that would create some funny legal issues). None of these browsers are mentioned in the article.<p>2) The APIs mentioned aren&#x27;t exactly rocket science and perfectly good OSS implementations (e.g. provided by Mozilla) exist. Also, you could use extensions. For example, Bitwarden integrates nicely into chrome and largely removes the need for built in password managers. I think browser sync is perhaps the hardest of these. But even that should not be too hard to improvise. Cross browser sync would actually be a nice thing to have.<p>3) Firefox is there, it&#x27;s being maintained, and you can use it. Many people do. Blanket stating that that is not an option is kind of weird. It&#x27;s a fine browser. It doesn&#x27;t have this problem. Chromium is also still a fine browser; and it supports extensions as mentioned before.<p>4) Forking&#x2F;patching chromium is always an option. I think some linux distributions already do this in the same way that they also patch Firefox (Iceweasel).
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godot超过 4 年前
I&#x27;ve been a casual Linux user on a personal laptop for years, and the way I&#x27;ve used Chromium is always as a &quot;test on Chrome&quot; tool on web app projects. Firefox is the daily driver browser. In that sense, I don&#x27;t lose out much by not having all the synchronization features etc. But I would lose out much by not having Chromium available at all.<p>A side point, the post mentions having to retry broken web sites in Chrome being a ritual for Firefox users -- I can&#x27;t think of many instances where that has been the case over the years. In fact, in the past decade it has been rare for any web site to fail in one browser and work in another. I remember two distinct cases: 1) H2O Wireless&#x27;s account management (and bill paying) which didn&#x27;t work in Chrome, and their tech support actually advised to use Firefox at the time (which worked), 2) Web Skype in recent years, for a time, dropped support for Firefox but only by user agent sniffing -- I was in fact able to get it to work completely fine on Firefox by using a plugin that changed my user agent string to say Chrome.
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xkvhs超过 4 年前
Doesn&#x27;t make sense to me. Why would anyone want to have their bookmarks managed by Google if privacy is their goal. I understand that this is about features you get when you login into browser with your Google account, which I doubt people who value privacy will do anyway. Importing bookmarks (or managing them some other way) seems almost trivial compared to other challenges of using linux, I don&#x27;t understand why there&#x27;s such emphasis on this. As for spellchecker - perhaps having your text sent to Google in full is not something necessarily desirable. Maybe I&#x27;m missing something.
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yarcob超过 4 年前
Do the people who use Chromium really sign into their Google account? If that&#x27;s the case, you can just as well use Chrome itself.<p>My assumption was that Chromium users would want a browser without all of Google&#x27;s cruft.
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zubspace超过 4 年前
Is there really a reason to run Chrome or Chromium? I&#x27;m running Firefox since forever and I can&#x27;t remember the last time I&#x27;ve seen a &quot;Runs in Chrome only&quot; banner?<p>Why can&#x27;t those Linux distributions just ship with Firefox? I don&#x27;t get it.
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ksec超过 4 年前
&gt;Specifically, it&#x27;s not worth it if no one uses it because they&#x27;ve switched to Chrome to get the functionality they want.<p>Agreed with the overall comments in comment section. Seems like an overreaction or making a big deal out of nothing.<p>Am I missing something?
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cromwellian超过 4 年前
B: I want a de-googled browser! I don&#x27;t want my browser phoning home to Google! G: Ok, here&#x27;s Chromium, with proprietary bits removed. B: You&#x27;ve removed access to proprietary Google APIs that allow the browser to send and store stuff on Google. G: Yeah, isn&#x27;t that what you asked for?<p>It&#x27;s not very hard for someone to spec out an open protocol for an end-to-end browser profile sync service. Those who want complete control of privacy can then run their own servers&#x2F;containers and sync their browser to them. Those who want Google integration can user Chrome, and later, write an extension that allows Chrome to also utilize whatever open sync protocol exists.<p>There&#x27;s too much whining, and too little coding. I think for the amount of time used to write articles like this, people could have already spec&#x27;ed out and MVP&#x27;ed such a service. This reminds me of the cypherpunks mailing list in the 90s. Like 95% of all the messages were political whining that X didn&#x27;t exist, or Y doesn&#x27;t do what they want, or bitching about the government. Eventually the hackers forked the &#x27;coderpunks&#x27; mailing list, to work on actual solutions.<p>Chromium is a giant gift horse of a codebase that doesn&#x27;t need Google integration, because implementing a browser from scratch is almost like implementing Unix from scratch, it&#x27;s an enormous undertaking. It works amazingly well in my Oculus Quest 2 with WebXR integration (and :( Facebook integration). Chromium is being used in wearables, smart home devices, automative dashboards, the same way linux is endlessly reused, even if the forks aren&#x27;t all useful as desktop replacements.<p>Thousands and thousands of products are being released thanks to OSS forks of AOSP, Chromium, or Linux, which if they didn&#x27;t exist, would make life very hard for hackers and startup entrepreneurs who would have to pay enormous license fees, or do enormous amounts of work to bring up simple devices.<p>I guess what I&#x27;m saying is, developers these days face a cornucopia of riches in the ecosystem, but instead, HN is filled full of threads of people virtue signaling like they&#x27;re an oppressed minority population. There&#x27;s a lot of things which are non-ideal about every major platform developers face, but the successful entrepreneurs shut out the noise, and find opportunities in filling in the gaps.
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smsm42超过 4 年前
How hard would it be to make an open-source bookmarks server that supports the same API without needing keys from Google? Of course, somebody will have to run them but I imagine distributions or some orgs could? We&#x27;re talking here about implementing bookmarks sync, with the API already known (since it&#x27;s client is implemented in the open-source Chromium). I mean I&#x27;m sure it&#x27;d require some work, but no &quot;writing a new OS from scratch&quot; level of work, rather &quot;implement a simple API&quot; level of work. Am I missing anything here?
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croes超过 4 年前
Isn&#x27;t it similar with Android? Google deprecates features in AOSP and moves them to closed source apps. <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;arstechnica.com&#x2F;gadgets&#x2F;2018&#x2F;07&#x2F;googles-iron-grip-on-android-controlling-open-source-by-any-means-necessary&#x2F;" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;arstechnica.com&#x2F;gadgets&#x2F;2018&#x2F;07&#x2F;googles-iron-grip-on...</a>
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paxys超过 4 年前
I have been using Firefox as my daily driver for years and have yet to come across a single one of these &quot;only works on Chrome&quot; web sites that the author mentions.<p>This entire paragraph is complete bullshit:<p>&gt; The larger problem, though, is that it&#x27;s not at all clear that Firefox will remain a viable alternative to Chrome. Its market share has been falling for years, and not everybody is pleased with the directions that the Mozilla Foundation has taken. The creators of web sites have responded by not caring about Firefox; having to retry broken web sites in Chrome is a ritual that many Firefox users have had to get used to. It&#x27;s not surprising that users give up and just run Chrome from the outset.<p>Firefox is a great browser, and is getting better with every new version. Differences in standards compliance, JS implementation and even rendering is negligible between modern Chrome and Firefox. Mozilla is probably the only major entity challenging Google&#x27;s dominance over web standards today, with even Microsoft having folded. I don&#x27;t know where the author is coming from, but to me there is zero reason to use Chrome or Chromium over Firefox.
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hkt超过 4 年前
Firefox has been an antitrust fig leaf for Google for some time, via the $300m or so in funding it receives from Google annually.<p>Hard for regulators to come and force the issue under such circumstances unless something is desperately amiss. It is with some regret that I conclude everything is fine outside the open source community, so there won&#x27;t be a reckoning yet.
npteljes超过 4 年前
I don&#x27;t get why these APIs are so essential that Chromium loses its value. Why would a browser need an API in the first place? I get conveniences like bookmark sync, and security features like avoiding malware domains, but one doesn&#x27;t _need_ these to function, it&#x27;s just somewhat more convenient or secure.
1vuio0pswjnm7超过 4 年前
I don&#x27;t need Chrome&#x2F;Safari&#x2F;Edge&#x2F;Brave&#x2F;Opera to enjoy the web.<p>I have image viewers, audio players and video players that do the same job. I have text-only browsers that are much faster for reading HTML. And I have numerous TCP clients that retrieve web pages and resources as fast and usually faster than &quot;modern&quot; browsers, and are always more reliable. Heck, the W3C&#x27;s libwww project still compiles and works well behind haproxy&#x2F;stunnel. The functionality I need is fast, reliable text and URL retrieval.<p>I do need the big, graphcal browsers for online shopping, banking and so forth, but that is not what I am most of the time I am using the web. I do not need them to enjoy the web&#x27;s content. I never expected I could survive without the graphics but it has been far easier than I thought, and it&#x27;s getting easier.
paxys超过 4 年前
I&#x27;m happy with this change, regardless of the fact that it is forced. Why on earth were some of the most popular open source Linux distros relying on Google&#x27;s servers to provide core functionality in the first place?
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pjmlp超过 4 年前
Just use Firefox, or whatever else instead of increasing Chrome market share, regardless in whatever shape or form.<p>It it like the iPhone, buying them and then complain they are restricted devices.
hkt超过 4 年前
It occurs to me that when the work is too much and people can&#x27;t keep up, the solution is to pool resources. Many of the comments on that article talk about the reticence of package maintainers to continue with fiercely complex packages. That appears to be the real problem, aside from what sounds like constant gotchas imposed by Google. It feels like a solution is a cross distribution package with bundled dependencies, maybe through Flatpak or an AppImage.
deanCommie超过 4 年前
Sorry, I don&#x27;t understand reaction of the <i>nix distro maintainers.<p>Why is bookmark sync such a dealbreaker? Searching for &quot;chrome extension bookmark sync&quot; reveals already multiple 3rd party extensions that can offer this functionality, and building more seems like an elementary 2nd year university project.<p>If the intent with distributing Chrome on </i>nix is to help users handle &quot;Site Only works on Chrome&quot; use cases, then does it even matter if the browser is fully-featured or has bookmark sync?<p>The whole thing feels like people have a bitter taste in their mouth, and want to react SOMEHOW to voice their displeasure...but it&#x27;s a completely meaningless gesture that Google won&#x27;t notice one iota. The only ones that will suffer are the users.
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eecc超过 4 年前
Can’t they the API address, make it configurable or extract the implementation to support git repo format? It would be insanely useful if both chromium and Firefox supported the same backends.
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pvg超过 4 年前
Dupe of <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;news.ycombinator.com&#x2F;item?id=25886218" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;news.ycombinator.com&#x2F;item?id=25886218</a>
Havoc超过 4 年前
Not afraid of endless browser wars. End of the war and google left standing on the other hand...(more specifically the chromium derived stuff)
kzrdude超过 4 年前
Tangent: Why do I so often get &quot;connection interrupted&quot; errors when trying to load lwn.net? (browser: firefox developer edition)
reportgunner超过 4 年前
Am I missing something ? Just export your bookmarks as HTML and e-mail them to yourself, why do you need google to do it for you ?
kylebenzle超过 4 年前
Great article. Essentially Google is removing Chromium&#x27;s ability to sync via Chrome&#x27;s servers, greatly reducing the usefulness of the open source version.<p>I personally had long argued for the use of Chromium and this was a massive oversight of mine. I thought Chromium was a viable alternative to Chrome but no I realize Google&#x27;s plan all along was probably to get their foot in the door then pull the &quot;open source&quot; rug out from us as soon as they could.<p>More than anything this single action cements Google as a bad actor, one that should be avoided as much as possible moving forward. The more people refusing to use Google products moving forward the better.
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