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Protocols, Not Platforms: A Technological Approach to Free Speech (2019)

646 点作者 ege_erdogan超过 4 年前

40 条评论

jasode超过 4 年前
<i>&gt;a workable plan that enables more free speech, [...] That approach: build protocols, not platforms. To be clear, this is an approach that would bring us back to the way the internet used to be. The early internet involved many different protocols—instructions and standards that anyone could then use to build a compatible interface. </i><p>As I&#x27;ve commented before[1][2], discussing <i>protocols</i> and advocating for them is a popular topic but it does not <i>make progress</i>.<p>The real issue is <i>funding</i> and trying to make humans do <i>what they don&#x27;t want to do</i>.<p>If HN is overrepresented by vanguards of decentralization and free speech, why are a lot of us here on HN instead of running USENET nodes and posting to a newsgroup such as &quot;comp.programming.hackernews&quot; to avoid being moderated by dang?<p>If most of HN knows how to set up git and stand up a web server, why do most of use Github instead of running Gitlab on a home pc&#x2F;laptop&#x2F;RaspberryPi or rent a Digital Ocean vps?<p>It&#x27;s because &quot;free &amp; open protocols&quot; weren&#x27;t really the issue!<p>A lot of us <i>don&#x27;t want</i> to run a USENET node or manage our own git server to share code.<p>[1] the so-called &quot;open&quot; internet of free protocols: <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;news.ycombinator.com&#x2F;item?id=20231960" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;news.ycombinator.com&#x2F;item?id=20231960</a><p>[2] free &amp; royalty free protocol like Signal still doesn&#x27;t solve the &quot;who pays for running the server&quot; problem: <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;news.ycombinator.com&#x2F;item?id=20232499" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;news.ycombinator.com&#x2F;item?id=20232499</a>
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colllectorof超过 4 年前
<i>&quot;After a decade or so of the general sentiment being in favor of the internet and social media as a way to enable more speech and improve the marketplace of ideas, in the last few years the view has shifted dramatically—now it seems that almost no one is happy.&quot;</i><p>10 or 15 years ago people looked at web 1.0, saw many good communities and valuable conversations and said &quot;we need to protect free speech&quot;.<p>Today people looks at Twitter&#x2F;Facebook&#x2F;YouTube&#x2F;Reddit, see mismanaged cesspools and declare that we need centralized speech control.<p>This is understandable, but highly reactionary and irrational. Speech control is facilitated by big tech at their own discretion. Advocating for more of it means you&#x27;re advocating for giving more power to the companies who fucked up the system in the first place.
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WaitWaitWha超过 4 年前
I read, and re-read the article and I am yet to understand how a protocol will help what the author describes in the first few paragraphs. (BTW very nicely walked around that hot bowl of mess!)<p>First, Usenet was just as much of a dumpster fire as Reddit et al. in some branches (<i>alt.</i> I am looking at you). The rest (comp. soc. sci. etc) were heavily self moderated.<p>Second, I am not sure the author is clear on what is the primary product of social media, as I see it. We, the users are the product. By moving to a protocol, there is little to no opportunity to capture private information about the product. (Not complexity, too big, or filter bubble.)<p>Why would a platform give up such income stream?<p>Am I misunderstanding what the author means by protocol here?
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fiftyfifty超过 4 年前
I always thought Google missed a perfect opportunity when they released Google+, they should have created a new open protocol for social media instead of another platform, something like RSS feeds for blogs. Then people could host their &quot;pages&quot; anywhere they want and still own their own data. The protocol would allow the aggregation of comments, likes etc. Google has a vested interest in keeping the web open to protect their indexing&#x2F;search business and they have the industry weight to force new standards. Instead of course they opted to create another platform...
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afinlayson超过 4 年前
100% This is why phone and internet work together. Imagine if AT&amp;T said Verizon couldn&#x27;t call its customers or couldn&#x27;t connect to other websites? Yet Facebook doesn&#x27;t have a way to connect to Twitter, meaning they own the whole sandbox ....
shafyy超过 4 年前
I talk about this more in my blog post [0], but I think that the only viable way out of this mess if anti-trust laws ensure that social network companies who have more than X users need to use open and decentralized protocols. This would be much easier to achieve than trying to break up companies (not saying we shouldn&#x27;t break them up).<p>0: <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;canolcer.com&#x2F;post&#x2F;social-media-decentralized-by-law&#x2F;" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;canolcer.com&#x2F;post&#x2F;social-media-decentralized-by-law&#x2F;</a>
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IndexPointer超过 4 年前
Reading the comments I think most people misunderstood the point (which is probably the author&#x27;s fault).<p>I don&#x27;t think he was saying that they&#x27;re should be zero moderation, or that moderation is wrong at all.<p>I think his point was that there should be open protocols and then services that use those protocols with their own rules.<p>Examples of this IMO are HTTP, the telephone network and email. If you don&#x27;t like your internet provider you can move to another one and you know that every single webpage will still be accessible through HTTP. The same way you can call any phone number, regardless of whether the person you&#x27;re calling has the same phone company. The same way you can send an email from Gmail to Hotmail or any other email provider. The same is not true for Facebook or Whatsapp. Signal cannot message to Whatsapp.<p>The point is somewhat similar to the Adversarial interoperability EFF article.
nynx超过 4 年前
Certain events that have taken place over the last few days and weeks will drive decentralization forward like never before.
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he0001超过 4 年前
Speaking from experience, I’ve been on internet since 1990. Even back then there were censorship. Moderators that took away your post if it was irrelevant or wasn’t on topic. You couldn’t store specific types of images (porn) etc.<p>I’ve never believed that internet was about “free speech” but more “grouping of specific type of speech”. If you were interested in something you either created that or hang out with others that thought the same. For me it has never been about free speech, just a way to reach stuff. Free speech in IRL is another thing.
melenaos超过 4 年前
We have RSS, if only the people could use it for simple stuff like they do in Facebook.<p>Unfortunately people thought of blogging of something difficult, something that needs thought and not something that could just express themselves.<p>Imagine that you can create a blog post within your RSS feed, add comments to the displayed rss items and simply own all of your data.
jugg1es超过 4 年前
What if the problem with free speech on the internet is not technological but rather anonymity? In the Ender&#x27;s Game sequels, they have two different networks. One that is anonymous and a wild west and another that is only accessible with a verified identity.
mcguire超过 4 年前
&quot;<i>In a protocols-based system, those who have always believed that Jones was not an honest actor would likely have blocked him much earlier, while other interface providers, filter providers, and individuals could make a decision to intervene based on any particularly egregious act. While his strongest supporters would probably never cut him off, his overall reach would be limited. Thus, those who don’t wish to be bothered with his nonsense need not deal with it; those who do wish to see it still have access to it.</i>&quot;<p>Somebody has very different memories of USENET than I do.<p>It does not seem possible for a technological solution to work as long as it is trivial and without consequence to set up new online identities.
zer0gravity超过 4 年前
What I think we need is Interoperability, not just protocols. What I understand by interoperability is what a mature (spoken) language provides. Although its body of words remains pretty much fixed, it offers a wide range of expression. I think that what we need is a <i>language of the internet</i> to achieve this type of interoperability. So, in a way, a language can be seen as a communication protocol and, with such a language, two systems can talk and <i>discover</i> and consume each other&#x27;s services. This language shouldn&#x27;t change too much, but it should be complex enough, to start with, in order to allow a high degree of expression and, ultimately, interoperability.
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breck超过 4 年前
I do some research with some people on a dead simple new low level encoding for new protocols called Tree Notation.<p>It&#x27;s all public domain.<p>I plug it a lot here when I see something relevant, which this post is (and I&#x27;ve long been a fan of the Knight orgs and supporter of them).<p>Anyway, always happy to chat with people about how this stuff could help a new generation of simple open protocols:<p>Homepage: (needs a refresh) <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;treenotation.org&#x2F;" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;treenotation.org&#x2F;</a><p>Demos: (also needs a refresh) <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;jtree.treenotation.org&#x2F;designer&#x2F;" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;jtree.treenotation.org&#x2F;designer&#x2F;</a>
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solus_factor超过 4 年前
When you look at the state of things, you should realize that things evolved to be this way _for_a_reason_.<p>What specific reason or reasons might not be clear, but those reasons and forces nevertheless exist.<p>Calls to return &quot;back to roots&quot; are quite naive, for example, &quot;let&#x27;s abandon governments and have private police!&quot;. No, we have what we have for a reason.<p>Same with the state of the Internet. &quot;Let&#x27;s all go back to protocols! Remember gopher? Let&#x27;s all do that!&quot;.<p>You cannot &quot;unroll&quot; progress. You cannot go back and live like the Amish. Well, you can, in a tiny weird closed community, while the rest of the world continues to march on.
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uniqueid超过 4 年前
Afaict, the missing piece that undermines this is a mechanism to uniquely identify users.<p>I don&#x27;t mean that more than one entity needs to know a user&#x27;s name (in fact, you could probably create a system where <i>nobody</i> can realistically <i>retrieve</i> a user&#x27;s name), or personal information.<p>If you don&#x27;t know whether you&#x27;ve seen an account before, though, how can you effectively deter bad actors? Not much of a ban if someone can create a second account and resume the same unwanted behavior.
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carapace超过 4 年前
&gt; Moving us back toward a world where protocols are dominant over platforms could be of tremendous benefit to free speech and innovation online.<p>Let&#x27;s say I agree with this, what&#x27;s the next step? What&#x27;s the &quot;call to action&quot;?<p>&gt; It would represent a radical change, but one that should be looked at seriously.<p>Okay. Looked at by whom?<p>I would say we already have the protocols (Napster was founded in 1999, P2P protocols are old enough to drink.) <i>Then what?</i><p>(My own cynical reaction is that people like what they have and deserve what they get. But I recognize and admit that that is not a productive area of discussion.)<p>Given that pirating movies is unfashionable now, what could some P2P protocol offer that would entice people away from FAANG? (Assuming that that would be a net benefit to humanity and the world is itself more of a hope than something you could prove one way or another. Does anyone have any sort of science that could even begin to predict the results of any of this?)
mbostleman超过 4 年前
&quot;build protocols, not platforms&quot;<p>When something (in this case technology) becomes a problem, I&#x27;m not usually in favor of trying to add more of that same thing to solve the problem. Similarly, if a platform is going to control speech, I don&#x27;t see the point of adding more control to control Facebook&#x27;s control. I think this is a structural rabbit hole that constantly repeats itself in our institutions.<p>And even if &quot;we&quot; did apply more technology, who exactly is going to lead this effort? If we drop solutions with n more protocols in the market, the same 3 companies will end up owning the content on them. And through some remarkable defiance of probability, all of those companies will act in identical lockstep when it comes to behavior and policies. Of course, there&#x27;s no evidence of collusion, they just happen to be culturally identical in every way. And that is reasonably believable given how few actual people are involved in running the organizations.<p>&quot;Some feel that these platforms have become cesspools of trolling, bigotry, and hatred.&quot;<p>Some? I&#x27;m assuming (possibly wrongly) that this sentence is intended to express one particular side&#x27;s feeling about the other particular side. But I think everyone feels this. Both sides make arguments (some more data driven than others) that show how the other side is motivated by hate. In fact, the prevalence of the conviction that love, compassion, and morality exist exclusively on one side appears to be a large part of the problem.<p>There are over 3000 counties in the US and if you colored them by their political and cultural sentiment and look at the map of the country, you would see the full diversity and distribution of ideas - at least geographically. The lack of this level of resolution on Internet platforms is the problem imo.<p>Maybe there can&#x27;t be 3000 platforms. But there can be more than 3-5 groupings of capital that control them all and they can be more culturally diverse. Not sure about the value of being more protocol diverse.
perryizgr8超过 4 年前
Free speech is not a technological issue. It cannot be solved with technology. You need men and women with principles to ensure our rights. Unfortunately we seem to have a lack of those today. Without them, we will continue making protocols and platforms and laws and regulations, and keep circling the drain.<p>Each one of us must realize the absolute importance of free speech, and must speak out even in favor of protecting the free speech of people we despise.<p>Realize that the entire point of free speech is to protect unpopular&#x2F;despised speech. There are no conditions on free speech, by definition. The answer to the question &quot;Is this considered free speech?&quot; is always a resounding &quot;YES&quot;, regardless of context, or who is speaking, or who may be trying to censor it.
johbjo超过 4 年前
The reason Reddit is a better user experience than usenet is 1) voting on posts and karma, and 2) continually polished user interface.<p>Design a decentralized protocol that can handle voting&#x2F;karma, while also incentivising developers of clients. The problem is that this is not easy.
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throwarayes超过 4 年前
When you realize Twitter, etc are <i>media companies</i> their actions make sense. They are places that frankly cater to a certain audience or way of interacting with content. It was always perhaps naive to think such places could stay neutral free speech havens, in the same way we can’t expect that from a newspaper or tv media company.<p>I do wonder about hosting providers though, like AWS. Should a utility be deciding who gets electricity because of what happens in a business or home? I feel this is much less defensible.
anarchogeek超过 4 年前
This philosophy is whas has been driving our work at planetary.social, building out protocols and tools for public sphere managed by the participants instead of the platforms.
dang超过 4 年前
Discussed at the time: <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;news.ycombinator.com&#x2F;item?id=20841059" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;news.ycombinator.com&#x2F;item?id=20841059</a>
every超过 4 年前
It&#x27;s a vast smörgåsbord. Choose the things you like and avoid those you don&#x27;t. And if you&#x27;re feeling adventurous or are simply curious, perhaps try a dollop of the odd or unfamiliar. You are perfectly at liberty to accept or reject the advice of others about your choices, as are they of your mutterings on the subject. Everyone ends up with a different selection of delectables and, most importantly, everyone eats...
kebman超过 4 年前
I did think the InterPanetary File System was promising: <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;ipfs.io&#x2F;" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;ipfs.io&#x2F;</a>
rcardo11超过 4 年前
&gt; In short, it would push the power and decision making out to the ends of the network, rather than keeping it centralized among a small group of very powerful companies.<p>This only creates that same echo chamber effect we are trying to avoid.<p>[1] <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;en.wikipedia.org&#x2F;wiki&#x2F;Echo_chamber_(media)" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;en.wikipedia.org&#x2F;wiki&#x2F;Echo_chamber_(media)</a>
Ambolia超过 4 年前
This is a related article: <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;graymirror.substack.com&#x2F;p&#x2F;tech-solutions-to-the-tech-problem" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;graymirror.substack.com&#x2F;p&#x2F;tech-solutions-to-the-tech...</a><p>The first part is about politics, if you only care about the tech part, you can jump to the following headlines:<p>- Encrypted clients<p>- Protocol extraction and unauthorized clients<p>- The secure personal server<p>- Technology is hard, actually
EGreg超过 4 年前
We need more than protocols. Software that implements them needs to be as user friendly as the current social networks:<p><a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;qbix.com&#x2F;blog&#x2F;2021&#x2F;01&#x2F;15&#x2F;open-source-communities&#x2F;" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;qbix.com&#x2F;blog&#x2F;2021&#x2F;01&#x2F;15&#x2F;open-source-communities&#x2F;</a>
chasing超过 4 年前
Maintaining healthy communities is, unfortunately, a human endeavor. Tools can help, but they cannot do it for us.
rcardo11超过 4 年前
Social media, as search engines and maybe other handful of things, became basic social infrastructure such as roads, goverments will have to pay for the servers where these &quot;open protcols&quot; run and they should be moderated from The Constitution itself.
gioscarab超过 4 年前
I totally agree with the OP, check out the protocol I am working on since 2010: <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;github.com&#x2F;gioblu&#x2F;PJON" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;github.com&#x2F;gioblu&#x2F;PJON</a>
commandlinefan超过 4 年前
&gt; in which the marketplace of filters is enabled to compete<p>Well, that&#x27;s a nice thought, but the goal of deplatforming is to remove somebody entirely. Nobody was forced to follow Trump on twitter - he had tens of millions of voluntary followers. If your goal is to get rid of Donald Trump, you <i>have</i> to centralize the decision.
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JacobSeated超过 4 年前
This take is inaccurate and a myopic understanding of free speech.<p>Moderating social media, and the internet is in fact, doable, and absolutely necessary. This has nothing to do with &quot;censorship&quot;.<p>The debate is actually easily settled if you understand what is happening with free speech online.<p>What typically happens in conspiracy-circles, is that people are radicalized because the disinformation is simply not challenged. It may be that a few users will dispute various claims, but their valuable, fact-based input, is typically drowned in a flood of spam, personal attacks, and claims unrelated to the claims that are being discussed in a given forum- or comment thread.<p>The problem with &quot;unmoderated free speech&quot; is that informationterrorists can abuse &quot;free speech&quot; to repeat the same disputed claims over and over, without ever addressing the fact that their claims have been disproven. This is also what I would label as &quot;flooding the discussion&quot; or &quot;drowning the facts&quot;; it is so effective that everyone who conducts themselves properly and respectfully are drowned in this flood of disinformation; this actually results in a &quot;suppression&quot; of free speech. When only one side is really heard, then we effectively do not have free speech.<p>Instead, what we have is a conversation that is dominated and suppressed by a few bullies that are shouting the loudest.<p>In addition, you would really hate to have governments influence the fact-checking processes on social media platforms, since governments have ultimate power, they are also the largest threat to free speech. Ideally fact-checking should be done 100% transparently by independent fact-checkers, and the facts that lead to a conclusion has to be tediously and transparently documented so that everyone can trust the processes. People who think the conclusion of a fact-check is inaccurate should take it up with the relevant fact-checkers, or possibly take it through the courts.<p>This &quot;ideal&quot; of &quot;unmoderated free speech&quot; has never really worked. It did not work in the real world, and surely will not work on the internet. The problem with this idea is that anti-social individuals will just try to control the narrative by spamming or repeating disproven claims (shouting), making new false claims, pushing disproven conspiracy theories. Etc.<p>A common technique I see used by malicious sources, is to release one claim, have people debate- and disprove it, only to release another, unrelated, claim without ever acknowledging the fact that their first claim was false. The result is that even old and disproven claims are circulating in an endless loop. They use this technique continuously with countless of subjects, both old and new — you would think that people will eventually reject claims made by known informationterrorists, due to their lack of credibility and history of publishing falsehoods, but that does not seem to be the case.<p>I am not a fan of banning people permanently from social media, as it just seems too merciless — there has to be ways to get un-banned — but, as a minimum, we should have fact-checking on profiles with large followings; and of course, groups and profiles used primarily to spread disinformation should be deleted.
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crazypython超过 4 年前
We need freedom of speech as much as we need freedom to not hear. We need community-moderation blocklists for speech.
Rochus超过 4 年前
This article made no specific proposal, or did I miss something?
godelzilla超过 4 年前
&gt; Rather than relying on a few giant platforms to police speech online, there could be widespread competition, in which anyone could design their own interfaces, filters, and additional services<p>To me this sounds something like &quot;less walmart, more supply chains, warehouses, and storefronts.&quot; I agree in spirit, but it&#x27;s the reverse of how capitalism usually works. The few giant platforms were built off the work of people who built their own interfaces, filters, and additional services. Why would we expect new&#x2F;improved protocols (crypto or otherwise) to be any different?
virgil_disgr4ce超过 4 年前
It&#x27;s still so bizarre to me to see techno-libertarians act like a few extremely popular social media platforms run by private companies is some kind of government, and that their first amendment rights are somehow under attack.
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anewguy9000超过 4 年前
just please keep me safe as i evolve into a plant
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d--b超过 4 年前
I am getting really sick of these articles.<p>NO: building protocols or decentralized networks, or anything really isn&#x27;t going to solve the hate-speech&#x2F;censorship problem.<p>This. Is. A. Culture. Problem.<p>The hate-speech&#x2F;censorship problem exists everywhere. If you can publish somewhere, you can publish hate&#x2F;spam. And if there is hate and&#x2F;or spam, you need to censor. That&#x27;s it. The very fact of publishing is the problem. In fact the only true way of solving the problem is to prevent people from publishing stuff.<p>The internet from the 90s didn&#x27;t solve that problem. It just wasn&#x27;t a problem so much at the time. Mastodon is certainly not solving that problem. Email, IRC, Usenet, BBses, etc. don&#x27;t even address the problem...<p>Now, the real question is why do people get so worked up? And how can we shift the culture away from this partisan shithole we&#x27;re in now?<p>Certainly not for me to answer that question. It maybe because people are poor, it may be because people lack some sense of purpose, it may be because of opioids, or video games, or because of vaccines and Gwyneth Paltrow. I honestly don&#x27;t have a clue.<p>But stop making it about platforms vs decentralized crap.
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WClayFerguson超过 4 年前
You can tell this article is well over a year old, because it doesn&#x27;t mention the words Fediverse, ActivityPub, Mastodon (or Quanta.wiki!)<p>It was summer of 2019 when the vast majority of those who are most &#x27;plugged in&#x27; realized we&#x27;re going to need a new censorship-resistant web, after the Vox Adpocolypse and other totalitarian and dictatorial over-reach by BigTech, which has been escalating steadily since then, culminating even with specific stories being blacked out (by cancelling people, and companies) and leading to a level of election interference that would&#x27;ve simply been impossible not many years ago. Committed by not just BigTech, but by M5M also.<p>Point of Fact: 68% of voters had never heard of the Hunter Laptop on election day.<p>(Full Disclosure: I&#x27;m the developer of Quanta.wiki, a new Fediverse App)
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