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Is Requiring a College Degree Discrimination? Yes, It Is

28 点作者 hollaur超过 4 年前

25 条评论

klmadfejno超过 4 年前
Author saying “Let me guess… You paid for your son’s education” can fuck off, especially calling the old guy entitled later on. People aren&#x27;t invalidated by having wealthy parents. The author&#x27;s reasoning appears to be Wealth implies Education ergo Education implies abuse of wealth. I&#x27;d wager most kids at stanford did not get there through special connections. They may have had additional advantages in life that allowed them to self-invest and get into Stanford, but its not without substantial merit. I did not go to stanford*<p>Comparing attendance at Stanford to requiring a college degree is also a pointless comparison. If you&#x27;re on the fence about whether or not a college degree is required for a job, you&#x27;re not looking for students from stanford, with the odd exception of programmers who can somewhat frequently big up a large degree of technical expertise on their own. Even if you do want to take the stance that requiring college degrees is discriminatory, shitting on some old guy for being proud of his son&#x27;s academic achievements without any evidence that it wasn&#x27;t earned on merit is extremely rude. And for what its worth, I&#x27;d bet heavily on a random student from stanford over a random student from my undergrad being more generally competent at intellectual tasks.
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vmception超过 4 年前
All three cases by this author are only controversial because we have ignored a greater point: colleges don’t exist to get you a job. They exist for a class of society, a finishing school where they all meet each other and collaborate on the obscure arts that weave the fabric of our reality.<p>It has been this way for a millennium.<p>The workforce started using them en masse 60 years ago and we’ve been trying to patch this concept ever since. It is great that we have large populations educated in advanced multidisciplinary concepts. There is <i>also</i> no way for the university concept to not exacerbate inequality.<p>This still leaves the need for a way to screen for competent people, something that shows discipline and life stability to commit to something. I think the apprentice concept and trade school does that. Germany has this fairly institutionalized (and also free university). I hope larger economic unions are able to reconcile this.
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vcanales超过 4 年前
&gt; I preceded to tell him that it doesn’t matter if you have a college degree anymore to do today’s jobs and that he was basically bragging about his family’s socioeconomic status, not his son’s actual achievements. I tried to elaborate about the inequalities of higher education and why it’s an outdated metric of future success. I explained why employers are absolutely wrong for thinking his son is better than someone without a degree or a degree from a public university.<p>Massive eye roll. I&#x27;m sure everyone clapped after that, and they gave them a free coffee, and hung their portrait on the wall.<p>Also, it&#x27;s &quot;proceeded&quot;.
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1shooner超过 4 年前
The strongest pillar of this argument &quot;Degrees are a poor indicator of on-the-job success&quot; is buried almost at the end of the piece. Most of the data the author provides refer to a lack of qualified job applicants rather than impact a degree has on being qualified. They do mention that specific in-demand skills aren&#x27;t being taught in many places, but I think that misses the point (and alleged value on the part of employers) of a liberal arts education.
blueblob超过 4 年前
The author comes across as someone who didn&#x27;t try applying for college and hates everyone that did. The hypocrisy of the entitlement displayed in her first narrative definitely weakens the argument from the get-go.<p>None of the points are particularly convincing, mostly because she picks the base for each of the statistics as whatever best supports her argument. She starts out only talking about elite colleges because that&#x27;s where she can find corruption and proceeds to pretend that it reflects the entire degree-granting community. &quot;Case studies&quot; 2 and 3 are both the same argument.<p>The last point about degrees being an indicator of on-the-job success is actually saying that 2&#x2F;3 of people with degrees were considered successful by their bosses. Whether 2&#x2F;3 is good or bad depends upon how it compares to employees without degrees, a statistic conveniently left out.<p>A degree isn&#x27;t supposed to be an indicator of on-the-job success; it&#x27;s supposed to be an indicator of ability to learn, adapt, and manage your time when you are on your own.
vorpalhex超过 4 年前
If the author is upset that challenging and attacking random people gets them told to &quot;go fly a kite&quot;, they really need to invest in some social etiquette training. I&#x27;m surprised that was the harshest language used.
pluto9超过 4 年前
&gt; Then he told me to go fly a kite, because that’s usually what happens when people are wrong and have zero evidence that their stance is right and yours is wrong.<p>It&#x27;s also what happens when socially clueless strangers interrupt your conversation to make rude comments and you have the good sense not to waste your time on them. Idiotic comments don&#x27;t deserve well thought out replies.
theflyinghorse超过 4 年前
Somehow I managed to get the pop that asked me whether I&#x27;d like to be taught to be &quot;Unstoppable&quot; 3 times (I chose mediocrity every time) before I gave up on reading the article
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underseacables超过 4 年前
I grew up pretty low income, Midwest rural, and there’s a clear difference between those of us from my high school class that went to college, and those that didn’t. I busted my butt to pay my way through school, and I am a much better person, and a much better employee because of it. University is an over priced pyramid scheme, but you learn things at university, like work ethic, that really sets you apart from other prospective employees. I see nothing wrong with a job requiring a college degree.
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908B64B197超过 4 年前
I would bet money that the interaction at Starbucks never happened. The author might have overheard some comments, but the altercation itself truly sounds made-up.<p>Now, I don&#x27;t want to cargo-cult elite schools, but yes graduating from one of them sends a strong signal. I assume someone who could get into Stanford &amp; al. is minimally competent since he was able to get admitted and graduate from a tough CS program.
kube-system超过 4 年前
I don’t disagree that high income makes success easier, but I don’t think degree requirements for employment or the ability to afford a prestigious school is the reason.<p>While the US has schools with expensive price tags, it also has respected affordable schools, and a mind-boggling amount of financial assistance available.<p>I would wager that the biggest indicator of success is not household income or college of attendance, but the resources and quality of secondary education. Navigating the college entry process is probably the biggest hurdle for capable students who grow up unprivileged.<p>As a counterexample, there are plenty of highly educated yet lower income people in the US: families with employment in the arts, humanities, academics, etc. The children in these families are not excluded from higher education — they simply have the knowledge to navigate the financial aid process.
dvaun超过 4 年前
I have trouble trusting the claims in the beginning of the article when the source given was not relevant to the author&#x27;s implication that a degree is primarily for indicating wealth status:<p>&gt; This comment really infuriated me because this type of outdated thinking—that a college degree from an elite, pricey university means you’re set for life—must die immediately. It falsely signals to employers that you’re better than the average Jane just because you have a piece of paper. In reality, all it really signals is your family’s socioeconomic status.<p>The source given[0] for this statement states nothing about employers and college graduates. Rather, it discusses the <i>likelihood for a student to graduate from college</i> based upon family income.<p>Following this:<p>&gt; I preceded to tell him that it doesn’t matter if you have a college degree anymore to do today’s jobs and that he was basically bragging about his family’s socioeconomic status, not his son’s actual achievements.<p>I understand the frustration with both private and Ivy institutions hefty price tags. This has been well covered and isn&#x27;t something I would debate.<p>After the issue with the first source, I decided to check the source for the infographic (titled &quot;New college grads lack soft skills, employers say&quot;) near the end of the article. The Cengage&#x2F;Morning Consult source[1] didn&#x27;t have the same figures as purported in the graphic. There is another piece from HRDive referencing this[2] but also does not have the same figures.<p>Regardless of sources, what irks me the most is the idea that a degree is useless for work. Many forms of work require critical thinking, reading and analytics—someone who is able to earn a college degree (regardless of institution status) is able to demonstrate that they have some abilities in these skills.<p>[0]: <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.americaspromise.org&#x2F;news&#x2F;pbs-newshour-biggest-predictor-college-success-family-income" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.americaspromise.org&#x2F;news&#x2F;pbs-newshour-biggest-pr...</a><p>[1]: <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;news.cengage.com&#x2F;upskilling&#x2F;new-survey-demand-for-uniquely-human-skills-increases-even-as-technology-and-automation-replace-some-jobs&#x2F;" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;news.cengage.com&#x2F;upskilling&#x2F;new-survey-demand-for-un...</a><p>[2]: <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.hrdive.com&#x2F;news&#x2F;soft-skills-top-employer-wish-lists-despite-automations-rise&#x2F;546255&#x2F;" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.hrdive.com&#x2F;news&#x2F;soft-skills-top-employer-wish-li...</a>
y-c-o-m-b超过 4 年前
It&#x27;s very telling about what kind of people make up this community when all the up-voted comments are attacks on the author and very limited actual discussion on the topic itself yet the down-voted comments are speaking to the actual problem. You don&#x27;t have to like the author or their demeanor, but to flag this thread is neglecting how the topic itself is a good fit for HN. What I&#x27;m seeing right now is reflective of the elitist attitude on this platform that rears its ugly head from time to time. Clearly this article hit a nerve for a lot of degree holders, it&#x27;s just a shame they&#x27;re emotional about it rather than constructive. Go ahead and down-vote me, but that won&#x27;t make your insecurities go away.
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docdeek超过 4 年前
&gt;&gt; “My son is golden because he has a degree from Stanford University.”<p>&gt;&gt;I explained why employers are absolutely wrong for thinking his son is better than someone without a degree or a degree from a public university.<p>Both of these things can be true.
mensetmanusman超过 4 年前
I wonder if people realize that any time a decision is made between option A and B, unless it is a completely random choice using a stochastic number generator, discrimination is being used.<p>That’s how choices are made.
ndcenterdiploma超过 4 年前
You will always need a college degree for any type of professional career, if you are thinking about replacing your college diploma for framing or want to purchase a fake joke diploma, get more details from our website www.nd-center.com
jayspell超过 4 年前
I can appreciate the authors anger at being filtered through a process that denies employment based on a lack of a degree. I don&#x27;t disagree that there is a problem, I believe the author lacks a clear vision of what exactly to do about the problem.<p>For senior level roles you do need someway to determine who can actually perform the job, qualifications will discriminate against some pool of candidates. If you require experience you are discriminating based on age, if you require a professional certification you are discriminating against those who haven&#x27;t achieved the certification.<p>The question seems to be what to do about other roles, like writer, or developer where the pool of applicants can be large. How do you filter out unqualified candidates? Whatever metric you choose becomes the new factor of discrimination.<p>A college degree is an easy button in some sense. It proves you can stick with a long term goal. It proves you can pass some sort of basic tests. It shows you potentially have some of the qualities required. It&#x27;s not guaranteed, there are horrible lawyers who passed the bar.
beervirus超过 4 年前
Author sounds insufferable. Getting into an argument with a stranger and being a dick.
disposekinetics超过 4 年前
We arrive at a place where either discrimination is either not categorically wrong, or admit that for practical reasons we have no wish to eliminate discrimination even if it is categorically wrong.
taylodl超过 4 年前
Title VII of the Civil Rights Act of 1964, better known as &#x27;equal employment opportunity&#x27;, prohibits discrimination by covered employers on the basis of race, color, religion, sex, or national origin. It does not say anything about college degrees or professional certifications so no, legally speaking, requiring such things is <i>not</i> discrimination.<p><a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;en.wikipedia.org&#x2F;wiki&#x2F;Civil_Rights_Act_of_1964" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;en.wikipedia.org&#x2F;wiki&#x2F;Civil_Rights_Act_of_1964</a>
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tengbretson超过 4 年前
Where did this idea that SAT&#x2F;ACTs have some secret backdoor that you can unlock by being rich come from?
motohagiography超过 4 年前
So glad someone is throwing down the gauntlet on this topic. She&#x27;s gone deep on it with the data as well.<p>An undergrad provides very little that is distinguishing these days and the distribution of &quot;goodness,&quot; it imbues is long-tailed. However, where she sees this obvious discrimination as stupid, I see disruption and arbitrage opportunity. Very excited by these observations.
elindbe3超过 4 年前
I think Betteridge&#x27;s law of headlines still applies here even though the question is answered in the title.
tjalfi超过 4 年前
Against Tulip Subsidies[0] is a much better argument against credentialism.<p><a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;slatestarcodex.com&#x2F;2015&#x2F;06&#x2F;06&#x2F;against-tulip-subsidies&#x2F;" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;slatestarcodex.com&#x2F;2015&#x2F;06&#x2F;06&#x2F;against-tulip-subsidie...</a>
im3w1l超过 4 年前
Wow this guy sounds like an asshole.
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