Developers needed; Hackers need not apply

&#62; The second developer receives the assignment and spends the next 30 minutes talking to the business to see how the software will be used and what value it provides.<p>He then spends the next three years writing software to import and export CSV files into various other formats. XML figures heavily in his job. Java is of course the only programming language allowed, due to corporate rules.

I think I am giving up on this "hacker" thing, there are just too many possible meanings and different people perceive it differently, thus it makes no sense to use the word in real life anymore.<p>The original, true meaning has been lost: nobody I know uses this word it in's original context. A "hacker" these days means one of these three:<p>1. Programmer (or a manager) who prefers quick&#38;dirty hacks that can't be maintained and, after accumulating into a critical mass, tend to bring the overall project progress to a halt.<p>2. Someone who breaks into other people computers, steals their personal porn, collection of cat photos and, of course, credit card numbers.<p>3. The other, non-business type of founders of "Internet Startups". Often not having an MBA, or simply a possession of "Python in 21 days" automatically qualifies you as a "hacker".<p>And since majority of people use the word in one of those contexts, I figured why bother... BTW my cat is a hacker too: his portfolio of hacks is growing every day.

It's a bit of a fallacious argument, based on some dodgy definitions of the key words. "Hacker" does not equate to "over-engineering-prone developer who likes to live in his little walled garden".<p>Part of writing great code that, as a hacker, one can be proud of, is to understand the purpose of the code. Otherwise, there's no way to tell whether the code is great.<p>In fact, in my experience, "Developers" (as opposed to hackers... if such an opposition is warranted) are the ones who are likely to over-engineer a solution by building things they think are needed (because they're hinted at in the waterfall-produced spec) rather than questioning every single requirement directly themselves and then producing a much smaller piece of code that does what the business actually needs, rather than what they said they needed.<p>What he's saying, in fact, is that he prefers developers who are capable of doing analysis work to those who aren't.

&#62; The second developer receives the assignment and spends the next 30 minutes talking to the business to see how the software will be used and what value it provides. After he's gotten the information he needs he says thanks, but instead of letting him leave, the CTO offers him the job on the spot.<p>Ah, he has learned the Joel Spolsky secret: with contrived examples, you can prove anything.

This article is like writing about white and black and pretending that there's no such thing as grey. Ninety-nine percent of hackers/developers would have attributes that put them in both categories to varying degrees (by almost any definition you care to give the two terms). By the way, since when did "hacker" start meaning "no real-world development skills"?

Hmm. The hacker / developer dichotomy being set up here just doesn't stand up to scrutiny. At least for the values of "Hacker" with which I am familiar. I definitely consider myself a hacker. But I also know (and practice!) the value of working with the people who will actually use my software, so that I can make them happy. One memorable moment for me was the gratitude I received from a user who had made a request for a small feature. It was only an afternoon's work for me, but it saved her one week a month in make-work. Requirements analysis is a given in my mind for true hackers. Make something people want.

So... hackers create startups and developers work happily in the corporate world? I'm fine with that.

So they had one guy who didn't ask any upfront questions, but delivered something. They have another guy who did ask upfront questions, but didn't deliver anything. Why choose the second over the first?

I hate the presumption that "real" developers need to know how to distill requirements. That's what you learn in school, but it isn't necessarily true, it depends entirely on where you work. I never talk to customers where I work, and generally for the requirements we decide as developers we do as a group, we don't need to trick non-techs into telling us what they really want. Somebody at every company is going to have to do this, but it doesn't necessarily have to be the developers

Stop poisoning Hacker News with crap articles filled with logical fallacies. <i>Flagged</i>.

Being a hacker and asking simple requirements questions aren't mutually exclusive.

Attacking the word "hacker" will definitely get response from the YC community. I think the YC community at large is in love with calling themselves "hackers".

I wonder if the second developer could write FizzBuzz...